A New Look at Intruder Theories

[Holdontoyourhat]

This is what I was talking about:

http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today011224.html He co-authored it with Dr. Krugman, one of the most adamant on findings of prior abuse, if that tells you anything.



I'm much obliged to you.



Meyer never said there wasn't any. He used the words "chronic" and "erosion," which is pretty clear to a lot of people. As for Beuf, he admits himself he never performed an internal examination and he hadn't seen her since October, I think.



Empty? We'll have to disagree on that one, but in a quibbling way. I think it's helpful to remember that even if it were clear (to me it is, but that's just my $.02), it doesn't necessarily follow that JR or BR or JAR or Grandpa P was the one doing it. That factored into LE's decision. Also, the physical findings indicate a physical abuse, but not necessarily for sexual gratification. Dr. Krugman pointed that out. Confused yet? Yeah, so was I.



No, I don't, but probably not for the reasons you think I don't.

Given the lack of consensus by the main group of people that were actually involved in the investigation.
Well, actually there were eight pathologists who were very specifically involved in the investigation who, independently of each other, reached the conclusion that I have. Wecht wasn't one of them, but they are on my list. That would take more explaining (and leave both of us with a bad taste in our mouths, I think).

So you're saying that an attendee at the autopsy is associated with a person who wasn't, and that person believes in prior abuse. And because of that, and the fact that neither Meyer or Sirotnak specifically stated she was not previously abused, that you conclude she was?

Wow.

Really, what you've got, SD, is nobody who attended JBR who has stated that JBR was abused prior to the night of the murder. Thats really what you've got and nothing more. There's no conclusion that you, I, or a dozen armchair experts can reach, having not been there.

 

[LI_Mom]

Not really, I correctly noted that he thinks Victory! is a revolutionary political reference. You're apparently claiming I can't use his observation because it was made in a RDI context. Of course I can use it, because it shows Victory! as political left, not religious or whatever.

Yes, really.

You insist on ignoring the key word "CONNOTATIONS" & insisting that he actually believes the wording is to be taken at face value. You are completely missing his point.


10 - With its connotations of revolution, the closing 'Victory!'-harks back to the connection to foreign powers. 'S.B.T.C' may be another attempt to sound foreign, says Van Zandt.



Connotations.... harks back to.......

In English this means..... the writer is PICKING words &/or phrases to make the reader imagine it sounds foreign.



I mean... it is just SO laughable to think some foreign faction swooped into Boulder to kill JB because they hate America. If not for the fact an innocent little girl is dead.... the whole plot would make a hilarious slapstick comedy.

 

[LI_Mom]

Not all of Coroner Meyer's autopsy report was made public- his notes were not. Arndt has said that Meyer specifically mentions the vaginal findings were indicative of sexual abuse.

As far as the Mega-Wealthy Foreign Fat Cat Socialist Kidnapper/Murderer(s)...
If they were THAT wealthy and wanted a blue-eyed, blonde 6-year old sexpot child bride, why didn't they just BUY one? Pretty easy to do in some countries if you have the money and know where to go. They didn't need to come to Colorado to get (and then kill) JBR. Oh, I forgot- they killed her because her eyes were really green and she wasn't a real blonde!

Maybe they killed her because she failed to say "thank you" when they were thoughtful enough to feed her pineapple?!

NOBODY likes an ungrateful child. lol

 

[LI_Mom]

I still believe that it meant Saved By The Cross. I am from the south, just like Patsy...and that phrase....along with "What would Jesus do", was very common here with Christians, back then. You could even by bracelets or necklaces with those initials on it....S.B.T.C., or W.W.J.D. I believe that she had used it, or said it so much...that it was the only initials that she could think of. If they weren't church going people, who claimed to be Christians...then I would think otherwise, that the SBTC meant something else. If John was dictating the note to her, then it also could have meant Subic Bay Training Center...which John was a part of. If Patsy wrote it all by her little self, it ...imo...came from Saved By The Cross.

I also believe it was Saved By The Cross.

I just can't see John thinking of Subic Bay at a stressful time like that BUT it's very easy to think Patsy would fall back on her religion & thoughts of 'being saved.'

After all, Patsy herself said they were never sure what day JB officially died BUT it was very important to her that JB's tombstone have Christmas as JB's date of death. And she said she KNEW it would be controversial to use the earlier date but she was doing it anyway.

Or maybe Patsy knew for sure that JB died BEFORE midnight?

 

[sandraladeda]

Snipped>>>

I mean... it is just SO laughable to think some foreign faction swooped into Boulder to kill JB because they hate America. If not for the fact an innocent little girl is dead.... the whole plot would make a hilarious slapstick comedy.

And then. when they killed her out of their great hate for America, they did not even take credit in any way ("Take THAT, American fat cats! Change your ways or Paris Hilton is next! Signed, Socialist Bosnian Terror Coalition"

I guess one could argue that, once they got that murder out of their system, they didn't hate America anymore.....AND HENCE they never killed any little girls ever again....

 

[LI_Mom]

And then. when they killed her out of their great hate for America, they did not even take credit in any way ("Take THAT, American fat cats! Change your ways or Paris Hilton is next! Signed, Socialist Bosnian Terror Coalition"

I guess one could argue that, once they got that murder out of their system, they didn't hate America anymore.....AND HENCE they never killed any little girls ever again....

LOL!!

That makes just as much sense as anything else we're supposed to believe with this hilarious RN. lol

 

[Tadpole12]

I still believe that it meant Saved By The Cross. I am from the south, just like Patsy...and that phrase....along with "What would Jesus do", was very common here with Christians, back then. You could even by bracelets or necklaces with those initials on it....S.B.T.C., or W.W.J.D. I believe that she had used it, or said it so much...that it was the only initials that she could think of. If they weren't church going people, who claimed to be Christians...then I would think otherwise, that the SBTC meant something else. If John was dictating the note to her, then it also could have meant Subic Bay Training Center...which John was a part of. If Patsy wrote it all by her little self, it ...imo...came from Saved By The Cross.

Thanks for the insight, Ames, re christian bracelets.

Was just looking for anything close to the acronym SBTC in other languages, and foreign places. Not common ....not at all.

 

[Chrishope]

IMO, SBTC couldn't mean Subic Bay Training Center, because the base was known as U.S. Naval Base Subic Bay. Even if we drop the US, that still leaves NBSB.

To my knowledge the base was never known as Subic Bay Training Center.

In my experience, "Naval" is always included in the name of a base. So Subic Bay Naval Traning Center, could be a name (though it wasn't, as far as I know) and that would make SBNTC.

I just don't think there is any merit at all to the idea that SBTC stands for Subic Bay Training Center.

 

[LI_Mom]

Thanks for the insight, Ames, re christian bracelets.

Was just looking for anything close to the acronym SBTC in other languages, and foreign places. Not common ....not at all.

I'm not sure about the locations & promoters of ALL the pageants JB was in but here's a list of them:

JonBenét Ramsey held a number of child beauty contest titles, including (in alphabetical order)

America's Royal Miss
Colorado State All-Star Kids Cover Girl
Little Miss Charlevoix Michigan
Little Miss Colorado
Little Miss Merry Christmas
Little Miss Sunburst
National Tiny Miss Beauty


Sunburst Pageants seems to be a big organization... they hold competitions all over the country.

Sunburst (pageants)
Babies
Toddlers
Children

Or, IF JB won a title in Texas... perhaps something like:

Sunburst (pageants)
Boulder
Texas
Charlevoix (or Colorado)

Remember JB was buried with a tiara & a brand new silk scarf.... I wonder if she was also made up in her full pageantry persona also? Forever the little beauty queen.


But.... I still would go with Saved By The Cross over the pageant junk.... I think religion was very prevalent in Patsy's life... so it makes perfect sense that a Christian reference pop into her mind at times of stress.

 

[sandraladeda]

Sun Burst Talent Contest?

South Boulder Talent Contest?

If SBTC is so common to Christian folks, I don't think PR would use it in the RN - she would be smart enough, after all that "misdirection", to know SBTC would point to her.

Some time ago, I forget where I first read it, someone looked at a phone keypad and saw that dialing SBTC on a phone keypad gives the digits 7282. 7282 also can give you the letters PATC. Pat-c. Get it?

Now I hate to admit I could be anything like PR, but when I was a kid, I liked to come up with codes and acronyms for names, nicknames or signatures. My name "Sandy" could be represented as "SAND-E" or my favorite, "S&E".

As SuperDave would say, just "spitballing"...

 

[Ames]

I also believe it was Saved By The Cross.

I just can't see John thinking of Subic Bay at a stressful time like that BUT it's very easy to think Patsy would fall back on her religion & thoughts of 'being saved.'

After all, Patsy herself said they were never sure what day JB officially died BUT it was very important to her that JB's tombstone have Christmas as JB's date of death. And she said she KNEW it would be controversial to use the earlier date but she was doing it anyway.

Or maybe Patsy knew for sure that JB died BEFORE midnight?

I agree...even though I do believe that John most likely helped her write the note..by dictating some of it to her...I believe that she probably is the one that thought up SBTC...and thats the only thing that she could come up with, during that stressful time.

Patsy was all about appearances too...and doesn't Dec. 25th, look SO much better on JB's tombstone than Dec. 26th? People STILL say...gosh, that poor child died on CHRISTMAS! She had to associate it with Jesus' birth, you know. That's also one of the things that JB is remembered for...her DOD.

 

[BBB167893]

So you're saying that an attendee at the autopsy is associated with a person who wasn't, and that person believes in prior abuse.

That's a convoluted way of saying it. A better way would be that Sirotnak, who did attend, apprently agreed with the person who wasn't there strongly enough to co-author a treatise on child abuse using JonBenet as a starting point.

And because of that, and the fact that neither Meyer or Sirotnak specifically stated she was not previously abused, that you conclude she was?

Wow.

Not just that. No, no. It took more than that for me to reach that conclusion.

Really, what you've got, SD, is nobody who attended JBR who has
stated that JBR was abused prior to the night of the murder.

What I've got is an expert who attended JBR who believes she was abused strongly enough to write an article in the hope that what happened to her won't happen to another child. That speaks volumes.

Thats really what you've got and nothing more. There's no conclusion that you, I, or a dozen armchair experts can reach, having not been there.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you can't reach that conclusion (I'd like to know what it would take for you to reach it), but it's not only me. Eight specialists, independently of each other were given the relevant case materials by the police and DA's office and agreed that there was prior abuse and were willing to swear by official documents to that. These were not "armchair" experts. They were part of this case. One of them, McCann, is recognized internationally as the top man in this field. England, Sweden, Japan; all have learned the ropes from him. I won't hold you to anything, but weigh the whole thing in your mind and you may come out with a different feeling.

 

[DeeDee249]

Saved By The Cross sounds good to me, too.
As for WWJD...well, if killing your own child and then making it look like someone else did it while you lie through your teeth and blame every innocent person you ever knew covers a few of those 10 commandments. Seems a bit more serious than money-changing in the temple, and we know what Jesus did then. I'd bet he'd personally kick her a&& right to He** and she probably has the sandal-prints on her rear end to prove it.

 

[Tadpole12]

I'm not sure about the locations & promoters of ALL the pageants JB was in but here's a list of them:

JonBenét Ramsey held a number of child beauty contest titles, including (in alphabetical order)

America's Royal Miss
Colorado State All-Star Kids Cover Girl
Little Miss Charlevoix Michigan
Little Miss Colorado
Little Miss Merry Christmas
Little Miss Sunburst
National Tiny Miss Beauty


Sunburst Pageants seems to be a big organization... they hold competitions all over the country.

Sunburst (pageants)
Babies
Toddlers
Children

Or, IF JB won a title in Texas... perhaps something like:

Sunburst (pageants)
Boulder
Texas
Charlevoix (or Colorado)

Remember JB was buried with a tiara & a brand new silk scarf.... I wonder if she was also made up in her full pageantry persona also? Forever the little beauty queen.


But.... I still would go with Saved By The Cross over the pageant junk.... I think religion was very prevalent in Patsy's life... so it makes perfect sense that a Christian reference pop into her mind at times of stress.

Hi, LI_Mom. and ty for the addit info.

 

[Tadpole12]

Socialism Better Than Capitalism?

Just kidding, I don't think thats it.

Its like an endorsement or an acknowledgement, because its at the very end, I think.

Hi, HOTYH.

So SBTC, has no relevance to socialism, or the socialist terms? within your SFF theory?

I would have thought that Victory SBTC, ya, okay .... a salutation, but the SBTC as a foreign group, Like PLO, FLQ, initials representing a region or a type of organization or a socialistic goal (verbe) ie liberation.

I'm not exactly sure what an endorsement or acknowlgement is?

but in this case it would be one that no one can decipher .... but the writer or members of the SFF or, perhaps the Ramsey's.

 

[BBB167893]

You see the trouble we have in this case, Tadpole?

 

[Tadpole12]

You see the trouble we have in this case, Tadpole?

Hi SD.
Yep.

 

[BBB167893]

Sorry I've been away, folks. My computer's in the shop and I have to use public ones for now.

Back to biz:

That's a big reason why the Ramseys never went to prison, Tadpole: the DA could never say for sure which one actually killed JB and the other one went along for the ride.

 

[bluestarzz]

from day one, i have always wondered about burke....
what do we know of him?
how did he feel about the attention showed to his sister?
he was at the age of ........wondering about a "female"...could he not
have ...abused his sister?
what do we know of him now? yep, totally dropped out of the spotlight

 

[DeeDee249]

from day one, i have always wondered about burke....
what do we know of him?
how did he feel about the attention showed to his sister?
he was at the age of ........wondering about a "female"...could he not
have ...abused his sister?
what do we know of him now? yep, totally dropped out of the spotlight

We don't know a lot. He seemed as the time to be an odd child, certainly his reaction to the death of his sister was odd (IMHO). I am sure he felt outshined by his pretty, dazzling "show business" sister, not just for the attention she got from the public but for the attention she got from his mother, which he must have resented at times. JBR was "special Remember every eldest child was an ONLY child for a while.
Of course he was of the age to be sexually curious about his sister. Abuse is always possible in a sibling situation, but while curiosity is common, abuse does not happen in every home.
BR went on to graduate from college. He had a MYSpace page that was public for awhile (with a link posted here, I think). He seemed fairly normal, with the usual assortment of friends of the opposite sex, but not much else is know about his feelings about what happened. I have read that he has said that he doesn't remember much about it. I am not so sure. He wasn't a toddler- he was nearly 10, so I'd think an event like this would be something you'd remember. It's not like it's been 50 years. He may have either repressed memories, or remembered what he's been told happened (versus what actually happened).