GUILTY Afghanistan - US Soldier guns down 16 civilians, 2012 Kandahar massacre

[LadyL]

If the army or the commander general or whoever else is to blame, then why aren't all the soldiers over there committing mass-murder of innocent civilians & children?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

If the army or the commander general or whoever else is to blame, then why aren't all the soldiers over there committing mass-murder of innocent civilians & children?

Because they are not all on equal ground. This kind of crazy has to do with being put under flight or fight stress over and over again. They usually turn inward and self destruct.

You can't keep doing this to people without them cracking in some way.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Since the start of the Iraq War in 2003, the rate of Suicide among U.S. Army soldiers has soared, according to a new study from the U.S. Army Public Health Command.

The study, an analysis of data from the Army Behavioral Health Integrated Data Environment, shows a striking 80 percent increase in suicides among Army personnel between 2004 and 2008. The rise parallels increasing rates of depression, anxiety and other mental health conditions in soldiers, the study said.

The high number of suicides are "unprecedented in over 30 years of U.S. Army records," according to the authors of the study, which was published Wednesday in the journal Injury Prevention. Based on the data and the timing of the increase in suicide rates, the authors calculated that about 40 percent of the Army's suicides in 2008 could be associated with the U.S. military escalation in Iraq.

This study does not show that U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan cause suicide," said Dr. Michelle Chervak, one of the study's authors, a senior epidemiologist at the U.S. Army Public Health Command. "This study does suggest that an Army engaged in prolonged combat operations is a population under stress, and that mental health conditions and suicide can be expected to increase under these circumstances."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-...start-iraq-war/story?id=15872301#.T10Q8XorxOU

 

[Nova]

Because they are not all on equal ground. This kind of crazy has to do with being put under flight or fight stress over and over again. They usually turn inward and self destruct.

You can't keep doing this to people without them cracking in some way.

I agree. But overlong and too frequent tours are only part of the equation.

I thought we had learned from Vietnam the tragedies that result from putting young men into a combat zone in which it is impossible to tell combatants from civilians. I'm not suggesting this shooter didn't know he was shooting civilian children; I'm saying that the "flight or fight stress" must be nearly constant and, for some, unbearable in a guerrilla war. (We see similar problems among British soldiers in their historical engagements in India, Africa and North America.)

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I agree. But overlong and too frequent tours are only part of the equation.

I thought we had learned from Vietnam the tragedies that result from putting young men into a combat zone in which it is impossible to tell combatants from civilians. I'm not suggesting this shooter didn't know he was shooting civilian children; I'm saying that the "flight or fight stress" must be nearly constant and, for some, unbearable in a guerrilla war. (We see similar problems among British soldiers in their historical engagements in India, Africa and North America.)

I watched a show on cable about the mine clearing units. Every day they would go out in there big mine clearing tank. The whole time they are in that thing was pure stress and no chance of flight. What a horrible unit to be in.

 

[Peliman]

I'm not defending what this soldier did, what I am defending is all soldiers there.

They are all subject to the rules of engagement. These are the pressures our soldiers must meet in Afghanistan. In other words, it's maddening because of political pressures. I also believe the riots taking place over the koran burnings are instigated by Taliban. No proof, I'm just saying.

Afghan rules of engagement force U.S. soldiers to free insurgents caught red-handed.

Several Taliban detainees who had been captured in February after being observed placing bombs in the culverts of roads used by civilians and military convoys near Kandahar were fed, given medical treatment, then released by American troops frustrated by a policy they say is forcing them to kick loose enemies who are trying to kill them.

Despite what American soldiers say was a mountain of evidence, which included a video of the men planting the bomb and chemical traces found on their hands, there was nothing the soldiers who had captured them could do but feed and care for them for 96 hours and then set them free.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/...us-soldiers-free-insurgents-caught-red-handed

This story is a year old.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I'm not defending what this soldier did, what I am defending is all soldiers there.

They are all subject to the rules of engagement. These are the pressures our soldiers must meet in Afghanistan. In other words, it's maddening because of political pressures. I also believe the riots taking place over the koran burnings are instigated by Taliban. No proof, I'm just saying.

Afghan rules of engagement force U.S. soldiers to free insurgents caught red-handed.

Several Taliban detainees who had been captured in February after being observed placing bombs in the culverts of roads used by civilians and military convoys near Kandahar were fed, given medical treatment, then released by American troops frustrated by a policy they say is forcing them to kick loose enemies who are trying to kill them.

Despite what American soldiers say was a mountain of evidence, which included a video of the men planting the bomb and chemical traces found on their hands, there was nothing the soldiers who had captured them could do but feed and care for them for 96 hours and then set them free.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/...us-soldiers-free-insurgents-caught-red-handed

This story is a year old.

What a horrible joke.

 

[hambirg]

really? so when those abused children grow up to be rapists and serial killers, we don't blame them?

If the goal is prevention, it is always better to look at the cause.

Behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. Remove the cause, remove the unwanted behavior. It's basic psych 101.

So in the above example of child abuse, we can ignore the cause and continue locking people up or we can work at preventing child abuse and hopefully remove the behaviors all together.

 

[Kat]

Prayers for those that lost their life.

Prayers for the Soldier who obviously had a psychotic break of some sort.

Prayers for that Soldier's family too.

That's all I can say.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

JOINT BASE LEWIS-MCCHORD, Wash. - A soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians in cold blood while they slept is a staff sergeant from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, a U.S. official has confirmed.

The soldier's name has not been released, but a U.S. official told ABC News he is a 38-year-old staff sergeant who is married with two children, and served three tours in Iraq. This was his first tour in Afghanistan, where he has been since early December, the official said.

He is accused of opening fire on villagers near his base in southern Afghanistan Sunday and killing 16 civilians, according to President Hamid Karzai, who called it an "assassination" and furiously demanded an explanation from Washington.

Nine of the victims were children, and three were women,

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...an-killings-from-Lewis-McChord-142249635.html

 

[wfgodot]

About all that's certain right now is that this is an act of terrorism committed by U.S. forces against the people of an allied nation. While we in the U.S. have apparently accepted the military account of this being the responsibility of one soldier, other nations are not quite sold on the veracity of that account at this time.

There were conflicting reports about how many shooters were involved, with U.S. officials asserting that a lone soldier was responsible. Witness accounts said there were several U.S. soldiers involved.
---
Neighbours said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place. "Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets." (Reuters, most recent update)

Company line? One rogue (press's word - undoubtedly reporting what's coming out from official sources) soldier:

While U.S. officials rushed to distance the apparent rogue shooting from efforts by a 90,000-strong U.S. force in Afghanistan.... (same Reuters link as above)

 

[cluciano63]

Shouldn't this be in the "Crimes in the News" forum? It seems pretty clearly a mass murder and not part of a military operation, whatever the underlying motives.

s

You are right...I started this thread and should have put it under "crimes" as it most certainly is a mass murder.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

About all that's certain right now is that this is an act of terrorism committed by U.S. forces against the people of an allied nation. While we in the U.S. have apparently accepted the military account of this being the responsibility of one soldier, other nations are not quite sold on the veracity of that account at this time.

Company line? One rogue (press's word - undoubtedly reporting what's coming out from official sources) soldier:

I just have trouble thinking it is a drunk group with a 38 yr old staff sgt. Too much experience and rank to let that happen. Easier for me to believe snapped.

 

[wfgodot]

I just have trouble thinking it is a drunk group with a 38 yr old staff sgt. Too much experience and rank to let that happen. Easier for me to believe snapped.

I agree. I do find it a bit odd that the U.S. "rogue gunman" account is totally dominating Google searches now. Seems less like certainty than it does damage control. (Although if it's strictly the latter, I do understand.)

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I agree. I do find it a bit odd that the U.S. "rogue gunman" account is totally dominating Google searches now. Seems less like certainty than it does damage control. (Although if it's strictly the latter, I do understand.)

In some of the first articles they had some witnesses saying more then one and some saying just one. I keep checking even Aljazeera reporters are saying one guy went into 3 homes.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/03/201231163054684909.html

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Just think, if this guy had gone in the army when he was 18 he would have 20 years in. Enough to retire.

 

[wfgodot]

In some of the first articles they had some witnesses saying more then one and some saying just one. I keep checking even Aljazeera reporters are saying one guy went into 3 homes.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/03/201231163054684909.html

Good info. Just curious as to why Reuters - which is top-notch - is still leaving the door open to more than one shooter (as recently as within the last hour).

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Good info. Just curious as to why Reuters - which is top-notch - is still leaving the door open to more than one shooter (as recently as within the last hour).

They might be on to something.

 

[Nova]

I watched a show on cable about the mine clearing units. Every day they would go out in there big mine clearing tank. The whole time they are in that thing was pure stress and no chance of flight. What a horrible unit to be in.

I honestly cannot imagine.

 

[Nova]

If the goal is prevention, it is always better to look at the cause.

Behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. Remove the cause, remove the unwanted behavior. It's basic psych 101.

So in the above example of child abuse, we can ignore the cause and continue locking people up or we can work at preventing child abuse and hopefully remove the behaviors all together.

Amen. And whether the perpetrator is one, psychotic individual or a platoon of soldiers run amok (My Lai) or a domestic serial killer, we can look at the context that produced their characters without absolving them of all personal responsibility.