All About Chloroform#2

[Jersey*Girl]

I personally don't hink KC used pure chloroform. I think the chloroform found is the result of many byproducts being combined together. Of course, this is just my opinion

 

[Indigo]

Only "relatively high" levels of chloroform can be measured by air injection method (edited to clarify--this means "relatively high" in the environment as in urban areas--not a highly sensitive test):

The methods reported in Table 2 for sampling and analysis of chloroform levels in air can be grouped into four different categories.

2.4.1.1 Direct measurement In this type of procedure, air is aspirated or injected directly into the measuring instrument without pretreatment. Although these methods are simple, they can be used only when chloroform is present in the air at relatively high levels (e.g., urban source areas, see section 5.1.1).

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc163.htm


If I'm reading this section of the report correctly, the preliminary analysis was performed by this air injection method:

Odor Analysis

The initial carpet sample was enclosed in a sealed metal can. A preliminary analysis was
performed by collecting a small (0.8 ml) sample of air from the can and injecting the air
into a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer. Several compounds were observed in this
sample (primarily chloroform); however, it was deemed necessary to concentrate the
sample in order improve the sensitivity for the lower abundance compounds...

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

 

[Rumpole]

I don't THINK KC used Chloroform, but whether in reality she did or not, the issue is whether that can be proved?
With the evidence that LE has shared with us so far - DEFINATELY NOT.

I have said that LE should go all out to follow the Chloroform leads, but they need more than we have seen.

Maybe they have more evidence? Certainly if Chloroform shows in toxicology analysis of the remains, then its an important piece of evidence.

 

[BondJamesBond]

...HOURS later...and I still agree...no chloroform used by Casey. Elevated levels due to anaerobic decomp conditions.

FWIW...I just posted on the Theories thread how the pings support that 10-minutes-at-a-time Casey stopped @ one of two pharmacies on her way to Tony's 6/16 to buy the OTC she needed since she had to come up w/ a plan on the fly while not being able to reach Cindy.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Elevated levels due to anaerobic decomp conditions.

Where would the anaerobic conditions be? Inside the body? Inside the trunk? Both?

 

[Jersey*Girl]

...HOURS later...and I still agree...no chloroform used by Casey. Elevated levels due to anaerobic decomp conditions.

FWIW...I just posted on the Theories thread how the pings support that 10-minutes-at-a-time Casey stopped @ one of two pharmacies on her way to Tony's 6/16 to buy the OTC she needed since she had to come up w/ a plan on the fly while not being able to reach Cindy.

Below is the conclusion from the report without my commentary. I underlined the portions in question. Five major compounds are mentioned as being indicative of human decompositon. One of those is chloroform--pointing to an anaerobic event. The "large concentration of chloroform" is addressed as an "additonal component," along with gasoline constituents. (Help! I am no expert...that's for sure)



Conclusions

The correlation between all the techniques, the comparison to what is known about the decomposition of human and animal remains, indicationsof early decomposition products and the presence of the five key major compounds associated with human decomposition (primarily the sulfur containing compounds) indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin. Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition. These results still do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Arpad Vass. Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Marc Wise. Ph.D.
Analytical chemist
Madhavi Martin. Ph.D.
Physicist



http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

Bond, I agree with just about everything you've stated, as well as JWG & a few others ... however, according to the forensic analysis supplied by Indigo, I take that to mean something else had to assist in the level of chloroform found. This is the reason I believe CA thoroughly cleaned that trunk. Heck, she probably had help.

 

[Rumpole]

Where would the anaerobic conditions be? Inside the body? Inside the trunk? Both?

I imagine the trunk to be oxyen deprived, but not anaerobic. There was enough oxygen in there after weeks to support live flies. Having said that, a shortage of oxygen would favour more anaerobic, than totally unlimited oxygen for those first 3 days.

 

[Indigo]

Wow, Indigo! Thank you very much for that info. Now please take into consideration that maybe CA did in fact steam clean or shampoo that liner and let me know what you think. Maybe she didn't even use a steamer & just did it by hand, but after seeing how anal she can be in protecting her infamous daughter, I honestly wouldn't put it past her. Maybe it has something to do with GA going off the deep end ... b/c he knows he contributed in aiding CA's protection of their daughter. He is an ex sheriff's deputy that definitely knows the smell of human decomp. Now, you tell me how in the name of GOD he could drive that vehicle home knowing what it smelled like. No way could he stomach doing that, even with all the windows down, unless it became psychosomatic that all he could think of was KC being involved in something deep and she needed protection from the authorities (ie: maybe he thought there had been a dead body in the trunk and KC was involved somehow - be it her or Caylee). At which point his mind would have taken over and he could have blocked out the smell in order to take care of what was the most important - finding his daughter & granddaughter. Maybe CA puts 2 & 2 together knowing it can't be KC b/c she's spoken to her via texts or phone convo's, so they go into protection mode right away. I'm still not sure how I feel as far as how deep GA is involved in a cover up but I feel that CA started right away. I can picture her with that Bissell! I can also picture GA detailing the car. If I remember right, forensics didn't show alot of hairs found, and minimal fingerprints on the inside of the trunk. Well, if KC was such a pig that she left used velveeta wrappers in her car, as well as napkins, gum wrappers, empty Crystal Light with one including brown liquid (which leads me to believe it was Crystal Light Tea) - then please tell me how there were only 4 or 5 hairs and NO fingerprints found in the interior of the trunk? Although there were 4 folded up dryer sheets (not sure how many of those were in the trunk as compared to the inside of the car). Just a few things to think about. :blowkiss:

Hi Jersey Girl,

If there had been no searches for "how to make chloroform," I'd be more inclined to believe that the chloroform levels were caused by a clean up effort. Also the fact that LE--knowing the FBI's true interpretation of the chloroform tests--searched for containers and chemicals that could be used in the making of chloroform is very convincing to me.

And JB is still in hot pursuit of RM's computer forensics...hard to believe there would be no reason for all of this.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Hi Jersey Girl,

If there had been no searches for "how to make chloroform," I'd be more inclined to believe that the chloroform levels were caused by a clean up effort. Also the fact that LE--knowing the FBI's true interpretation of the chloroform tests--searched for containers and chemicals that could be used in the making of chloroform is very convincing to me.

And JB is still in hot pursuit of RM's computer forensics...hard to believe there would be no reason for all of this.

I agree, Indigo. It's the searches that have me stumped. Chloroform would be the last thing that someone hoping for long term effects would use to drug a person. It has to be re-administered every 15 minutes or so. Along the same lines, why would someone research it as an agent to clean up decomp months before committing a murder? I wonder what LE's theory is about the chloroform.

 

[Rumpole]

I agree, Indigo. It's the searches that have me stumped. Chloroform would be the last thing that someone hoping for long term effects would use to drug a person. It has to be re-administered every 15 minutes or so. Along the same lines, why would someone research it as an agent to clean up decomp months before committing a murder? I wonder what LE's theory is about the chloroform.

I have searched how to make chloroform now as well. I have some knowledge of chemistry and lab work, but it took me some time to read and understand. KC viewed once as far as I have heard, and spent only a few minutes to cover that and a host of other sites. I am not convinced she did more than scan it and would not have retained the info.
It's a great piece of the puzzle if chloroform is found in the remains, or traces are found in KC's possession, but just a coincidence based on what we know so far.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I'm thinking of a scenario, but I don't know if it would properly explain the evidence found in the trunk.

A drowning - with the lungs containing chlorinated pool water. The lungs serve as an anaerobic site and contain abnormally high levels of chlorine (pool water). Fluid then leaks from the mouth causing the stain which subsequently yields compounds of human decomposition and chloroform.

Would this meet the requirements of what was found and analyzed?

 

[txsvicki]

How could anyone have cleaned the trunk and scrubbed it with all sorts of cleansers (resulting in chloroform) if dirt and a basketball size stain was found in the trunk? Surely the dirt would have been removed and the trunk wasn't being opened regularly due to the horrible smell and maggots.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Hi Jersey Girl,

If there had been no searches for "how to make chloroform," I'd be more inclined to believe that the chloroform levels were caused by a clean up effort. Also the fact that LE--knowing the FBI's true interpretation of the chloroform tests--searched for containers and chemicals that could be used in the making of chloroform is very convincing to me.

And JB is still in hot pursuit of RM's computer forensics...hard to believe there would be no reason for all of this.

Yeah, I hear ya. That's very true, however, what about JWG's theory on KC's google searching? While it seems incriminating, it still probably happened around the same time RM posted that MySpace "Win her over with chloroform" picture. In RM's computer forensic search, the docs state that he deleted several items but nothing incriminating. It also states the date of the downloaded MySpace chloform picture. Wasn't that right around the same time frame of KC's google searches? I thought she searched "chloroform" within a week or two of RM's posting. Also, it still doesn't explain that lack of trash found inside of the trunk as compared to the inside of the car. If KC was such a little piggy with throwing wrapper etc around her car, how come minimal hairs and no fingerprints were found inside of the trunk. Something else that's bothering me...CA & GA stated the bag of trash & maggot filled pizza were in the trunk. Well, why don't we see the forensic analysis of that supposed garbage? IMO, if there was a bag of garbage in the trunk, then how could only a few hairs and no fingerprints be found inside of it? Especially considering CA & GA both stated they disposed of the garbage! Wouldn't their fingerprints be left somewhere, ie: picking up pieces of garbage...surely some pieces of trash must have fallen out of the bag. I think KC took that garbage from TL's apartment to disguise the smell in the first place. Something that bothers me about that garbage is the fact that there was a FULL SAIL orientation document of some sort. It hasn't been released as to whose name is on it - I'll bet it's TL's.

 

[Rumpole]

I'm thinking of a scenario, but I don't know if it would properly explain the evidence found in the trunk.

A drowning - with the lungs containing chlorinated pool water. The lungs serve as an anaerobic site and contain abnormally high levels of chlorine (pool water). Fluid then leaks from the mouth causing the stain which subsequently yields compounds of human decomposition and chloroform.

Would this meet the requirements of what was found and analyzed?

I don't like any drowning scenario, but any source of chlorine is a potential source for one of the main components of chloroform - CHLORINE. Pool chemicals are one of the suggestions in the how to make chloroform pages. Though just to be negative, chemicals obviously very dilute in the actual pool water, and not very much chlorine provided by the volume in a child's lungs.

 

[Indigo]

Where would the anaerobic conditions be? Inside the body? Inside the trunk? Both?

Inside of a sealed trash bag is one possibility.

 

[Indigo]

Have ppm levels of voc's been included in the released forensics?

Hi Bond! These threads move so fast...sorry I missed this. I haven't seen any reports that indicate the ppm levels.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Inside of a sealed trash bag is one possibility.

How would it be sealed? Those pull ties don't create a true seal - just a constricted opening. Are you suggesting duct tape over that small opening?

 

[natsound]

Hi Jersey Girl,

If there had been no searches for "how to make chloroform," I'd be more inclined to believe that the chloroform levels were caused by a clean up effort. Also the fact that LE--knowing the FBI's true interpretation of the chloroform tests--searched for containers and chemicals that could be used in the making of chloroform is very convincing to me.

And JB is still in hot pursuit of RM's computer forensics...hard to believe there would be no reason for all of this.

ITA. The chloroform search, and the chloroform evidence found, tells me KC searched for and used chloroform in the murder of her child.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

How could anyone have cleaned the trunk and scrubbed it with all sorts of cleansers (resulting in chloroform) if dirt and a basketball size stain was found in the trunk? Surely the dirt would have been removed and the trunk wasn't being opened regularly due to the horrible smell and maggots.

Sometimes you can't get pet stains out either. Also, the forensics didn't state how much dirt was found. It could have just been a small trace amount. The basketball size stain could be the remaining dried up stain that simply cannot be removed, such as the same way I can scrub & scrub the grass stains out of my sons' football pants - yet the grass stains only get lighter and are still noticable. Also, some cleaners have certain oils in them, such as Resolve Carpet Cleaner. Whenever you use Resolve, it might take the stain away at first, but after a bit of time, the stain comes back up (even in the same spot). Again, it's only something to think about. I don't believe Caylee was killed by chloroform, I just don't think KC is smart enough. Besides, wouldn't it take her more than 10 minutes to make it from scratch? I just don't see her concentrating enough. Personally, I don't think she's that intelligent. Sure, she can create reasonable doubt, and obviously she's a pro at lying her azz off, but I don't think she's smart enough to make chloroform. I still think she was going out at night for a reason. I'm still not ruling out something against the law. I've also thought, since the beginning, that the ZG that was robbed is factored into this. Does everybody realize she's right down the expressway from CA's & GA's home? Maybe CA was involved in that robbery. Maybe the murder of NG is also factored in somehow (especially now knowing that she knew ZG from Cocoa - or near Cocoa locale). No, I'm no conspiracy theorist, but there's too many coincidences for me to not consider it. My ex is a police detective and I've learned to be open minded from him His mom is a nurse, which is where I became interested in the medical field. I went to FSU for 2 years, another 6 months at Valencia. I was very aware of a couple of high end society girl clubs and it was my understanding that some upstanding officials frequented them. I think there's a set of clubs that KC frequented that bear more investigation, but that's for the OCSO. Needless to say, I've been searching demographics in Orlando, Kissimmee, Maitland, and Altamonte Springs for about 7 months now. We're moving back there in a little less than 2 years. It might be important to note that a group of guys from Sawgrass Apts (the ones that used to make up the flyers for the nightclub) used to advertise in Craigs List - right in the same section prostitutes offer their services. They're no longer advertising in that section, heck, sometimes they're not even on there anymore. I think KC had something to do with them and I don't think she's smart enough to make chloroform. She was probably drugging our little angel Caylee with Benadryl or some other OTC. Makes me sick to just think about it:furious:

 

[natsound]

Maybe they have more evidence? Certainly if Chloroform shows in toxicology analysis of the remains, then its an important piece of evidence.

snipped

Will maggot analysis reveal chloroform?