Am I the only one who finds this alarming???

That's what I remember too. I always thought how odd it seemed to me another man took this child to the bathroom, especially after the panties situation developed and stuff had to be changed and rinsed. The male family friends we have would never have done that. They might have taken her to the bathroom, but when it became a bit more complicated than that, they'd have called for me. Actually, I don't really think any of them would have taken her to the bathroom. Nope. They'd have asked me to do it - or another woman nearby. The situation would be entirely different if it had been a little boy, but it wasn't. Just seemed really strange to me. Perhaps I don't run with the same kind of folks. Most of the men I know are much more reluctant to do anything like that. They'd be embarrassed and it just wouldn't feel like the right thing to do.
 
I think FW's taking JonBenet to the bathroom and doing all that woman stuff is extremely odd, so his extremely odd behavior in Atlanta may not have been all that new, not just due to JBR's death.

In fact, I keep wondering about the Rs' choice of oddball friends, as I've said before. Seems to me there's some odd things about the whole group.

So what exactly is it that drew them all together? Remembering what Patsy said to Pam, in Schiller's book. I can see the page in my mind's eye right now, can't reach it down from a shelf because I have a sore arm, fibromyalgia. I was so sure it was her sister Pam, not Pam Griffin, that she said it to, but know I could be wrong, can't check. And there was a business reason for association with Pam Griffin, so I'm not including her in the strangeness of the rest of the group of friends.

There may have been some kind of "tie that binds" which we haven't discovered yet. ("We didn't mean for THIS to happen.")

It had to do with some kind of habitual strange behavior involving the child? She also was said to have told McSanta's wife at the party of the 23rd, "I don't feel pretty," and was crying, and Susan Stine's turning away the police just may have been because of some strange reason they were all together, rather than just not wanting the party interrupted.

Maybe this has been touched upon before, not explored very deeply.
 
I addressed this and asked you a question on another thread. Moved six months ago and gotta find my books to re-read. Can't remember the specifics as well as I should to argue anything, but hasn't stopped me yet.

Yes, that whole group of friends seems weird to me. I keep asking myself if I'm just not "with it" and have "old-fashioned values" a slightly younger generation might not share. Perhaps Fleet's behavior with JB was completely acceptable to others. Yes, it seemed to be with his own group, but I just know how easy it is to be lulled into believing what others close to you do is what everyone out there does. Sometimes, that couldn't be more wrong. When I was a little kid, I thought everyone was raised the way I was and all families were like mine. It was a strange, sad, rude, and disillusioning awakening when I grew up and found out just how weird my family was. They gravitated to others outside our family who displayed similar behaviors. Perhaps same is true of the Rams?

Personal note: Sorry about your fibromyalgia (sp?). No fun. Woke up yesterday with a crick in my neck. HATE IT!! Feel better, so you can get to that book!! :)
 
I'll look for your other thread. It's on pg 53 of the paperback version where Pam and Kristine were visiting and Patsy said We didn't mean for this to happen, so I was forgetting about Kristine when assuming it was P's sister Pam. And she said, "You know, THEY have killed my baby."

It was later when Pam quoted her, and said she said something LIKE, "We didn't mean for this to happen."

The two California visiting guys are on page 43.
 
What's wrong with the R's that they would let a nonrelative adult take care of their daughter's intimate hygiene? It's not like she was an infant or toddler in diapers...sometimes that is left to whomever discovers the problem.

A girl JBR's age should have been developing a sense of modesty, especially among adult nonrelatives.

No matter what their role(s) in the murder, I think there is something terribly wrong here.
 
Eagle1 said:
At the Whites', Fleet went into the bathroom to wipe JonBenet, and didn't he rinse out her (small) panties because she had either slightly wet or soiled them?? Didn't he put a pair of Daphne's panties on JonBenet?

Surely they wouldn't have removed them when leaving for home, afraid they wouldn't remember to bring them back, or because JonBenet didn't like them? Good thinking, MissDaisy about JonBenet probably putting her feet around her Dad and getting the fibers that way.

Didn't Fleet give them her balled-up wet panties when they were leaving? And it wasn't mentioned, but maybe her long johns and black velvet pants too? Maybe they were slightly wet because she almost didn't make it to the bathroom at the Whites' ?

I'm not sure that this is correct info, Eagle, for Christmas Night. Do you have the source? I'd like to read this, if it's in fact a fact.
 
Nehemiah said:
I'm not sure that this is correct info, Eagle, for Christmas Night. Do you have the source? I'd like to read this, if it's in fact a fact.
My understanding of this alleged incident is that it occurred one day when Fleet was minding JonBenet and Daphne at the White's house. JBR had an accident and Fleet did what any caring father did and provided her with clean underclothes. I *really* do not see any sinister motives in this incident at all. I'd be more concerned about a man who would humiliate a child by leaving her in stinking, wet clothes.
 
Jayelles said:
My understanding of this alleged incident is that it occurred one day when Fleet was minding JonBenet and Daphne at the White's house. JBR had an accident and Fleet did what any caring father did and provided her with clean underclothes. I *really* do not see any sinister motives in this incident at all. I'd be more concerned about a man who would humiliate a child by leaving her in stinking, wet clothes.

I think you are correct, Jay. I read last night in S Thomas' book where this had happened, but he did not say that it was Christmas Night. I understood it to have been in times past. Eagle, if you find out differently, please post.
 
Yep, Eagle, I hope you'll clarify. I'm too lazy, but I honestly thought that stuff happened between Fleet and JB at Xmas. Is this true or not?
 
Brie said:
WHY turn your ADULT DESIRES on a CHILD?
I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that John Ramsey sexually abused Jonbenet.When I look at photos of Jonbenet,its like she already WAS an adult,even if she was only 6.Alot of Jonbenet's pageant attire was very revealing,and unsuitable for her undeveloped body.In a book I once read,the author asked the question in regard to how Jonbenet was made up and dressed up,"Did someone dress her up like a mini lolita to feed some sick sexual desire of their own?"
I remember reading somehwere else that Patsy was under alot of pressure when it came to looking perfect for her husband.At one time,he told her she looked fat.His beautiful daughter on the other hand...
 
BlairAdele,

These features are what made the JonBenet murder different, it has all the hallmarks of a Daddy Did It, but little direct evidence. Its undisputed that JonBenet was sexualized innapropriately. The standard excuse is her pageant appearances.

But the evidence proposed by some leading pathologists was that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse, since she had internal scarring.

So as a domestic motive as distinct from an intruder motive this one is still on the table.

Its possibly also one for the ladies on board to investigate, since I feel they have a keener eye for some of the domestic niceties of this feature?
 
I cant remember where this came from,but in my reading something stood out: Jonbenet KNEW what sex was all about.She used the word 'sexy',which isn't usually in a 6 year old's vocab to my knowledge.
She knew what sex was about-does that mean she had already been given the birds and the bees talk,or had she actually engaged in sexual activity that was forced upon her? In my opinion,the last thing I said is most likely the case.
The autopsy didn't mention that a man's penis had penetrated Jonbenet's vagina,but something had done so.But that doesn't mean,a man's penis hadn't been there before,after all,wasn't little Jonbenet's hymen broken? That is extremely disturbing.
 
BlairAdele said:
I cant remember where this came from,but in my reading something stood out: Jonbenet KNEW what sex was all about.She used the word 'sexy',which isn't usually in a 6 year old's vocab to my knowledge.
She knew what sex was about-does that mean she had already been given the birds and the bees talk,or had she actually engaged in sexual activity that was forced upon her? In my opinion,the last thing I said is most likely the case.


My son is in first grade, and he came home from school one day and said "sexy" in reference to himself. Has he been sexually abused? No. Does he know what sex is? No - he doesn't even understand kissing. As it turns out one of his classmates called him "sexy boy". So, maybe Jon Benet heard that terminology from school. I am still amazed at some of the things my son comes home and says.
 
bensmom98 said:
My son is in first grade, and he came home from school one day and said "sexy" in reference to himself. Has he been sexually abused? No. Does he know what sex is? No - he doesn't even understand kissing. As it turns out one of his classmates called him "sexy boy". So, maybe Jon Benet heard that terminology from school. I am still amazed at some of the things my son comes home and says.


bensmom98,

It's true kids learn a lot about sex from street talk. It doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active. But in the case of JonBenet the evidence of prior sexual abuse was proven by the autopsy results. She had acute injuries to the vagina (at the time of the murder) and she had chronic injuries to the vagina (up to 3 days prior to the murder).

JonBenet's hymen was "represented" by a rim of mucosa tissue (IOW the hymen was gone); the hymenal orifice was one cm (about twice the size it should have been); and there were acute injuries over top of eroded (old and worn away over a period of time) injuries at the 7 o'clock position in the vagina.

JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
bensmom98,

It's true kids learn a lot about sex from street talk. It doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active. But in the case of JonBenet the evidence of prior sexual abuse was proven by the autopsy results. She had acute injuries to the vagina (at the time of the murder) and she had chronic injuries to the vagina (up to 3 days prior to the murder).

JonBenet's hymen was "represented" by a rim of mucosa tissue (IOW the hymen was gone); the hymenal orifice was one cm (about twice the size it should have been); and there were acute injuries over top of eroded (old and worn away over a period of time) injuries at the 7 o'clock position in the vagina.

JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab

Jonbenet had acute injuries suggestive of a sexual assault at the time of her murder. BC you know there are camps on both sides concerning the possibility of chronic molestation, the camps closest to the actual evidence have not said there was evidence of this, those farthest removed, such as Wecht, have taken the opposite position. Meyer's findings suggest IMO there was NO chronic abuse. Notice I said , IMO, perhaps you should preface your statements as well?
 
sissi said:
Jonbenet had acute injuries suggestive of a sexual assault at the time of her murder. BC you know there are camps on both sides concerning the possibility of chronic molestation, the camps closest to the actual evidence have not said there was evidence of this, those farthest removed, such as Wecht, have taken the opposite position. Meyer's findings suggest IMO there was NO chronic abuse. Notice I said , IMO, perhaps you should preface your statements as well?


sissi,

It would be totally improper to state that something is an opinion when you are stating a fact that you have properly sourced.

I sourced the fact that all of the forensic pathologists, assigned by the BPD to study the autopsy report and the microscopic slides obtained during the autopsy, agreed that JonBenet had likely been chronically sexually abused. I even provided the names of the doctors.

I'm sorry these facts don't fit everyone's theory, but these are the medical opinions of experts, and therefore when reported by me or anyone else become a fact that this is what the forensic experts concluded. It is not my opinion this is what they said; it is a fact this is what they said .

sissi, would you mind revealing your source that contradicts what the BPD's panel of forensic experts concluded? Thanks.

BlueCrab
 
BC if we took every" known "fact as our own truth, we would have TWO murdered little girls named Jonbenet.
 
sissi said:
BC if we took every" known "fact as our own truth, we would have TWO murdered little girls named Jonbenet.


sissi,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you are saying there's two sides to every story, then I agree with you -- so let's hear your side. Please, just try to answer my question:

Let's hear what your "known" facts are (in this instance, those who say there was no chronic sexual abuse) and your sources who stated those facts. Put them on the table for all to see. Then the readers can decide on their own whether or not your facts and your sources for these facts are credible and trump the findings of the BPD's forensic pathologists.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
bensmom98,

It's true kids learn a lot about sex from street talk. It doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active. But in the case of JonBenet the evidence of prior sexual abuse was proven by the autopsy results. She had acute injuries to the vagina (at the time of the murder) and she had chronic injuries to the vagina (up to 3 days prior to the murder).

JonBenet's hymen was "represented" by a rim of mucosa tissue (IOW the hymen was gone); the hymenal orifice was one cm (about twice the size it should have been); and there were acute injuries over top of eroded (old and worn away over a period of time) injuries at the 7 o'clock position in the vagina.

JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab


BlueCrab,

If I understand you correctly, it is your OPINION that the hymen was gone. If that is so, that's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions. I didn't notice that you mentioned the word, OPINION, in your observations quoted above.

You are suggesting, if not asserting, that the coroner selected this roundabout way of informing the readers of his autopsy report, that the hymen was gone, [about this, more later] when he could more easily and clearly have said, this is all that's left of the hymen, or, alternatively, the hymen is torn, or, a portion of the hymen is gone.

He commented on the abrasion to the hymen (and other abrasions), but he failed to mention that big chunk of missing hymen that was the source of so much bleeding? He mentioned the few blood cells on the surface of the abraded portion of the hymen, discovered upon microscopic examination, but he failed to mention the millions and millions of disrupted cells (the rent) that signified the torn flesh at the site of the horrendous hymenectomy? I don't think so....and that's MY opinion.

From Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition:
represent (vb): to bring clearly before the mind: PRESENT <a book which represents the character of early America> I don't see any ambiguity in the term, "represents". None. In describing normal hymens (those that haven't suffered injury) the term, "rim", is used. So, apparently, for some, these two terms, "represents", and "rim", have prompted them to conjure up an image of missing tissue, where none is missing.

"IOW The hymen was gone." I have returned to this as promised. Now, if it were true that the coroner said the hymen was gone, and we could all agree on this, we'd still have one more important question to answer--is he talking about an old injury or a new one? He described the hymen as it was when he saw it for the first time. BTW, he was describing a hymen, not what had once been a hymen, and was no longer. Was the hymenectomy (as it were) that you infer, performed long ago, or on the night of JB's death? We'd be forced to speculate, since there were pathologies of two sorts mentioned in the report--chronic and acute. An old injury is not an acute injury. We've added another worm to the can, thanks to our speculation based on an incorrect interpretation of the coroner's remarks. But, just as each of us has a right to his/her opinon, each of us has a right to his/her misintepretation. Let's agree, for a few seconds, that part of the hymen had been ripped away that night. Where did it end up?

And that brings us to the scarring. Where in the world did this notion come from???? There is no mention, in the report, of scarring. This scarring is an inference at best, and a figment of the imagination at worst. The chronic interstitial inflammation is aptly explained by vaginitis.

"The evidence of prior sexual abuse was proven by the autopsy results." No. Some "experts" opined that there may have been prior abuse. That issue was never definitively decided. But, what if it had been? What if there had been a unanimous opinion--yes, she's been abused in the past. What would you conclude from that? Daddy's been abusing his child? Burke's been abusing his sister? Patsy's been abusing her daughter? The gardener has been abusing JonBenet?

What we're looking for is evidence to suggest who committed the crime of murder; better yet, evidence to PROVE who committed the crime.

We have an acute injury to the vagina; we have a dead girl. Somebody messed with her vagina that night, but the injury inflicted that night was minor. It appears to have been done with something like a stick. That's good evidence. That tells us something. That speaks a lot louder than any supposed (but debated) prior injury that wouldn't advance the ball for either side in a trial, or in a debate on an internet forum.

I think you've also misinterpreted the term, "eroded". Any removal of cells from the surface of tissue by an abrasive process, whether repetitive or nonrepetitive, is termed erosion. "Erosion" doesn't mean old and worn away over a period of time, unless by, period of time, you mean milliseconds to seconds.

That's how I see it.....
 
RedChief,

From Steve Thomas' book, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation", pg 227:

"In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation -- that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

"There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' ... 'There was chronic abuse' ... 'Past violation of the vagina' ... 'Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse'. In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before."

RedChief, please provide us with your evidence, and its source, that refutes the above information. Thank you.

BlueCrab
 

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