Am I the only one who finds this alarming???

I will go off to hunt, at this point I remember Dr. Krugman, saying the "scrape" on Jonbenet's hymen, and quickly Cyril Wecht jumped in saying the "tear", Krugman (dean of the University of Colorado School of Medicine and a consultant to Boulder investigators ) was involved in the investigation, Wecht did NOT have full access to the autopsy at that time.
Dr. Krugman, was certain it was a very acute physical assault however nothing pointed to prior molestation.
As I believe I stated earlier, those closest to the actual case did not believe the child was molested prior to the night of her murder.
Smit has consulted with doctors , his conclusion is "no prior molestation".
Carnes in her report states there is NO EVIDENCE of molestation prior to the night of the murder.
Steve Thomas, Cyril Wecht were certainly persuasive, too many believe them, and that's one of the "shames" in this case. Wecht's a doc, a lawyer, but not an Indian Chief:)
 
So far, in my "travels" I have found the quote of Wecht's to be the beginning of the term "torn" as applied to the condition of Jonbenet's hymen. Given this information predates the full release of the autopsy and was said in direct reply to Krugman's interpretation (who was directly involved in the investigation), it may be safe to say it is an "urban legend" of the case.
 
Ahem, the incident that got this discussion started (this time--the nth time) was the posting of the two true/false questions which were very specific. I repeat them here for everyone's edification:

Was the hymen torn?

Was the vagina scarred?

Whereas all the peripheral stuff is interesting and important, these were the two questions that I, for one, wanted answers to. I'm beginning to think that definitive answers aren't forthcoming.

It's one thing to have a theory, as BPD did early on, and try to fit the evidence into it. It's another thing to look at the evidence, as Smit claims to have done, and follow it where it leads. It's human nature to have hunches, and to be guided (or misguided) by them. Sometimes a hunch can get you to the truth very quickly; other times it leads you way off the path. An example of such a hunch was the residue on JB's thigh, which showed up when illuminated with a black light (UV). Investigators suspected that it was semen. It turned out they were wrong.

I pointed out that the autopsy report described an abraded [eroded] hymen, and said nothing about a torn hymen; that is the undeniable truth. I pointed out that the autopsy report mentioned inflammation and capillary congestion, and said nothing about vaginal scarring; that is the undeniable truth.

Having gotten over that hurdle, these questions are posed:

Is it logical to deduce/assume/surmise/conclude, based on the autopsy report, that the hymen was torn? I think we already know how some of the posters feel about that; they have rallied their experts around them. I'd like to know how posters themselves, approaching the subject with an open and objective mind, interpret the evidence, without being guided or misguided by the experts or authors who may or may not have knowingly or accidentally engaged in mischaracterization. I only visited the autopsy report myself because the experts were arguing about what it implied. I wanted to make up my own mind about what it implied. If the vast majority of unbiased experts had concluded this, that or the other, I would have no reason to doubt them. But, they didn't and haven't. Unlike most of the experts, I have no dog in the race, no axe to grind, no desired outcome, just intellectual curiosity about the case.

Is it logical to deduce/assume/surmise/conclude that the vagina was scarred? To me, this is a less important question, but certainly could have some bearing on whom to look at as suspect. Scarring isn't an acute phenomenon; visible scars don't develope in milliseconds, microseconds, seconds or even minutes. There is no doubt that the coroner described the focal interstitial inflammation as chronic. We can't know exactly what he meant unless we discuss this with him, but we can know what chronic means. It's a medical term, and it means marked by long duration (e.g., congestive heart failure) or frequent occurrence, and is opposed to acute, which means it happens all of a sudden (e.g., a heart attack). If you accidentally cut yourself with a knife--this used to happen to me once in a while as a kid who liked to carve wood with a jackknife--the injury is acute. The resulting scar--if there is one--doesn't appear all of a sudden; but when it does appear (the time comes when you can look, and it's there), it doesn't mean that you're in the habit of cutting yourself over and over again at that spot on your finger, or that once the blade entered the flesh, it remained there for a fortnight. Well, what do you make of that?

Why are these important questions of FACT? If we are convinced that we know the facts, we can procede to attempt to arrive at important conclusions based on them. For example, assume the hymen was FRESHLY torn (and old tear might have some important implications too). That might be real important evidence; it might indicate that someone tried to have sex with JonBenet that night. If that were true, it might help us to understand the motive of person who was involved in the crime, and narrow our suspect list.

If we strongly suspect that there was scarring in the vagina, then we might reasonably suspect that someone who had ready access to JonBenet had been abusing her, and that also might help us to narrow our suspect list. I don't think the mysterious intruder pedophile would be a good candidate for inclusion in that list under that circumstance. Does anyone?

We can choose to leap to conclusions (meaning no disrespect) or we can choose to carefully, thoughtfully, painstakingly arrive at them.

Here are two big questions (not newly presented): (1.) Was it someone's desire for sexual intercourse with JonBenet that lead to her death? (2.) Was it someone's desire to conceal his involvement in the crime, that explains the sexual injury?

Concerning (1.): If you believe this, how do you account for what appears to be a minor vaginal injury with no clear evidence that sexual intercourse was attempted? Concerning (2.): If you believe this, what's your explanation for why he/she chose this injury as a means to deceive?

Something to consider regarding the "erosion"; it was discovered on the smallest piece of tissue taken from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen and underlying it was capillary congestion. This 7:00 position was the spot where the visible abrasion ("1 cm in area") was discovered. This red-purple area of abrasion was visible to the naked eye. Is it any wonder that upon microscopic examination, this abrasion/erosion was also evident; that the microscope confirmed what the naked eye had seen?

You decide...
 
RedChief said:
Concerning (1.): If you believe this, how do you account for what appears to be a minor vaginal injury with no clear evidence that sexual intercourse was attempted? Concerning (2.): If you believe this, what's your explanation for why he/she chose this injury as a means to deceive?
1.) No.
2.) Yes.

To simulate a sexually sadistic assault.
 
UKGuy said:
1.) No.
2.) Yes.

To simulate a sexually sadistic assault.


Or sexual play with her brother?

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it is a possibility.
 
UKGuy said:
1.) No.
2.) Yes.

To simulate a sexually sadistic assault.


UKGuy,

Apparently you misunderstood the question. Let me put it more plainly: Why was a simulated sexual assault the chosen means to deceive?

Also, why choose this means and not make it convincing; i.e., the minor injury?

You've answered neither question, but thanks for your reply.
 
RedChief,

I answered No to one question and Yes to another.

It may have been a ramsay who inflicted the "minor injury", not wishing to escalate it beyond necessity.
 
IrishMist said:
Or sexual play with her brother?

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it is a possibility.
Yes its the most obvious possibility, and not one that has been overlooked. But the question asked was wrt sexual intercourse.
 
UKGuy said:
RedChief,

I answered No to one question and Yes to another.

It may have been a ramsay who inflicted the "minor injury", not wishing to escalate it beyond necessity.


You answered the second question in my post #46, but not the first. Not yet decided?

Have you ever tried pulling hens' teeth?

Thanks for your reply.

RedChief
 
RedChief said:
You answered the second question in my post #46, but not the first. Not yet decided?

Have you ever tried pulling hens' teeth?

Thanks for your reply.

RedChief
RedChief,

Not having indulged in orthodontic pedantry, I cannot say I have!

Now you typed:
RedChief said:
Here are two big questions (not newly presented):

(1.) Was it someone's desire for sexual intercourse with JonBenet that lead to her death?

(2.) Was it someone's desire to conceal his involvement in the crime, that explains the sexual injury?

RedChief
in addition
RedChief said:
Concerning (1.): If you believe this, how do you account for what appears to be a minor vaginal injury with no clear evidence that sexual intercourse was attempted?

Concerning (2.): If you believe this, what's your explanation for why he/she chose this injury as a means to deceive?
RedChief
Having read your previous posts with respect to JonBenet's gynaecological status, alive or deceased. I hoped you would appreciate definitive and succint answers.

Your question 1. requests an expanded account or justification, only if I reply in the affirmative.

Since I answered with 2. with a negative and expanded on it. Using a variant of avian logic, I assumed this would demonstrate why question 1. was precluded.
 
UKGuy said:
RedChief,

Not having indulged in orthodontic pedantry, I cannot say I have!

Now you typed:

in addition

Having read your previous posts with respect to JonBenet's gynaecological status, alive or deceased. I hoped you would appreciate definitive and succint answers.

Your question 1. requests an expanded account or justification, only if I reply in the affirmative.

Since I answered with 2. with a negative and expanded on it. Using a variant of avian logic, I assumed this would demonstrate why question 1. was precluded.


Concerning (1.): If you believe this, how do you account for what appears to be a minor vaginal injury with no clear evidence that sexual intercourse was attempted? Concerning (2.): If you believe this, what's your explanation for why he/she chose this injury as a means to deceive?


I think it was your "no" answer to the first question that caused the confusion in the first place: If you don't believe sexual intercourse was attempted, there is no need to respond to the question, eh?

As for the second question, you have yet to answer it, so, I'm guessing you don't have a good answer?

Maybe a semantical problem again: when I say you haven't answered it, I mean your answer is unresponsive in the courtroom sense and it didn't go to the question; it answered a different question--the question posed in #1 which you said there was no need to answer, not that you don't have that prerogative.

It is these so-called definitive and succinct answers that skirt around the issue, eh.

So, thanks for your oblique reply.

RedChief
 
BlueCrab said:
bensmom98,

It's true kids learn a lot about sex from street talk. It doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active. But in the case of JonBenet the evidence of prior sexual abuse was proven by the autopsy results. She had acute injuries to the vagina (at the time of the murder) and she had chronic injuries to the vagina (up to 3 days prior to the murder).

JonBenet's hymen was "represented" by a rim of mucosa tissue (IOW the hymen was gone); the hymenal orifice was one cm (about twice the size it should have been); and there were acute injuries over top of eroded (old and worn away over a period of time) injuries at the 7 o'clock position in the vagina.

JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab


The information provided by Blue Crab is incorrect according to the autopsy report.

From the autopsy: Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular
congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The
smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the
vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with
underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red
blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is
birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate
is not seen.


Also: A minimal amount of semi-liquid thin watery red fluid
is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other
perineal trauma is identified.

Chronic inflammation does not equate to chronic injuries. Nor does the fact Dr. Meyer used the word 'represented' in reference to they hymen mean the hymen was not present. Hymens come in many shapes, one of which is a hymenal rim--crescent shaped.

Given the fact JonBenet was sexually assaulted, either digitally or with a paintbrush handle, the orifice would indeed be stretched. Since she died not long after this assault, it is highly unlikely the body would have had time to repair this stretching.

This taken in conjunction with Meyer's statement, 'No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified,' no conclusion of previous sexual abuse can be made.

Rainsong
 
BlueCrab said:
TLynn,

.....Both John and Patsy would have known better than to put size 12-14 underwear on JonBenet if they had been involved in that part of the staging. IMO the underwear were put on JonBenet after death by someone who didn't know what they were doing -- such as two 9-year-old boys.

JMO

I highly doubt two 9 year old boys would think it important to put clean underwear on JBR at all....especially after killing her. In fact 9 year old boys that I know don't think clean underwear important at all.

I highly doubt many 9 year olds could have committed this crime and cover-up. Not many 9 year old boys can tie a knot like that (even if they are in the boy scouts)....much less choke the life out of their little sister by imbedding a cord into her neck that deeply....and all without having shown any signs of mental instability before and after.

9 year olds would not have been calm enough to redress a body...nor do I think they would have even thought about it.

Most 9 year olds would think looking at or touching a girls privates was pretty daring sexually...most would not think up sexual asphyxia or try it out at such a young age.

No normal 9 year old would have been able to keep the secret as long as Burke supposedly has or stood up even under intense scrutiny.

While children can and do sometimes murder....they are very disorganized killers and usually are caught in their lies pretty easily. Most have also shown prior behavior, rage or inaproprate acts that point to mental problems of one sort or another.
 
Maybe So said:
I highly doubt two 9 year old boys would think it important to put clean underwear on JBR at all....especially after killing her. In fact 9 year old boys that I know don't think clean underwear important at all.

I highly doubt many 9 year olds could have committed this crime and cover-up. Not many 9 year old boys can tie a knot like that (even if they are in the boy scouts)....much less choke the life out of their little sister by imbedding a cord into her neck that deeply....and all without having shown any signs of mental instability before and after.

9 year olds would not have been calm enough to redress a body...nor do I think they would have even thought about it.

Most 9 year olds would think looking at or touching a girls privates was pretty daring sexually...most would not think up sexual asphyxia or try it out at such a young age.

No normal 9 year old would have been able to keep the secret as long as Burke supposedly has or stood up even under intense scrutiny.

While children can and do sometimes murder....they are very disorganized killers and usually are caught in their lies pretty easily. Most have also shown prior behavior, rage or inaproprate acts that point to mental problems of one sort or another.



Maybe So,

Maybe so, but then on the other hand ... ?

None of us know for sure what happened that night, so I have several BDI theories, and even they change as new information is revealed. One of my theories is that a fifth person was in the house that night at the invitation of a Ramsey, and that "person of interest" is the killer. However, due to the lies and coverup by the Ramseys, Burke was likely involved. They wouldn't behave the way they do unless a family member was somehow directly involved.

BlueCrab
 

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