Analyzing the area where Hailey was found

[Tugela]

I want to say something else about our soil. Our ground is very hard and notoriously difficult to dig in. Most perps do not try to bury the bodies of their victims. Every so often, you'll hear about a body, or remains, being found on an oil lease. That's because the killer drove out on a dirt road, then an oil lease road (will explain more about that in a minute) to dispose of the body where it won't be found for many months, or most probably, many years.

If you look at Google maps in the area of where there are many oil wells in west Texas, you'll see all these little lines going to small circles. Those are oil lease roads leading to a particular oil well, which has a pump jack on top of it. Most of them are out in the middle of nowhere. Just about the only person who drives those roads with any frequency is the pumper. If the well isn't performing to it's potential, sometimes, the company who owns it will have a pulling unit sent out to do a workover on the well. Other than that, very few lease roads get much traffic. A person could drive out on a lease road, but not right up to the well, and dump a body ANYWHERE on the property behind a mesquite bush, and no one would ever see it for a long time. It is only by chance that most of those remains are ever recovered. I'm sure there are some victims lying on lease properties right now that have yet to be found.

The point I'm trying to get across is that if you want to dispose of a body in west Texas, all you have to do is drive out of town and down a oil lease road, then place it anywhere you like (as long as it is some distance away from the pump jack). You don't have to worry about burying it anywhere in soil or in water. No one is going to find it for a long time because no one comes that way very often. So to me, that speaks volumes about the mindset of Hailey's killer. They went to a spot they knew about, and were familiar with, in order to hide her remains.

But, if that is so, they would also know what you just said. Dumping a body in an area where it would be more likely to be found doesn't make sense if they wanted to hide it.

 

[Tugela]

I'm sure a link to the transcript of a live chat with Shawn Adkins on Friday, March 3, 2001 has already been posted, but I wanted to post excerpts as they possibly relate to the topic of fishing in the area.

http://www.examiner.com/article/hai...e-exclusive-interview-shawn-adkins-speaks-out

If you haven't already, please read the entire transcript for more details of what Shawn had to say on a variety of topics. It's interesting that Shawn eventually hung up on the host after being asked if he'd ever said he "could kill somebody and hide the body and no one would ever be able to find it." At first, Shawn denied he'd said it, then the connection went dead, and the host could not get it back, nor did Shawn call back in to resume the conversation.

HOST: Connie Jones stated something to us that I felt I needed to address with you tonight.

SHAWN ADKINS: OK.

HOST: She stated to me that you had talked to her and said that you could kill somebody and hide the body and no one would ever be able to find it. And we’ve had several people state that to us. Explain this a little.

SHAWN ADKINS: The only thing I can say about that is it’s a flat lie. I never told Connie Jones anything like that. I don’t talk to her. I don’t think I’ve ever talked to her. I’ve said hello in passing but that’s it.

HOST: You’ve never said that to anybody? Hello? Shawn? (Appeared the call was dropped. It sounded as though a woman in the background said "Oh, please" and the call was dropped. The hosts waited for some time trying to get him back on the line, but he never called back. They were unable to reach him.)

Now for the excerpts about Shawn's love of fishing:

HOST: OK, and when you were a kid, when you were young, what did you like to do for fun?

SHAWN ADKINS: When I was a kid I was really close to my grandparents and my grandparents loved to travel and they got me into it too. I loved traveling with them. My grandfather would take me fishing quite a bit and my grandma would take me to the mall and take me sightseeing whenever they went somewhere. Just all kinds of things, it was really awesome.

[snip]

HOST: Do you like to go fishing?

SHAWN ADKINS: Yep, I like to go fishing.

HOST: Where’s your favorite place?

SHAWN ADKINS: I remember I went deep-sea fishing one time with my friend Michael Murphy(?) That was probably my best fishing experiment, best fishing expedition that I ever did.

HOST: Is there a favorite lake or pond around there that you like to go to?

SHAWN ADKINS: Uh, I usually like to fish at this creek behind the cemetery across the street by my grandmother’s house. I’ve been fishing that creek ever since I was little.

[snip]

Anyone who loved fishing as much as Shawn did and who lived in that area would have been very familiar with Lake JB Thomas.

Well, if you read it, he says he used to go fishing with his grandfather a lot, and the place he likes fishing is the creek behind his grandmothers house. So, that is probably where they went fishing.

Beyond that the only other fishing was a deep sea trip, which probably would have been a thrill for someone like him.

My guess is that he is not really a fisherman beyond that.

He did, however, work in the oil industry, probably doing the sort of thing you described in your earlier post. Surely he would know what you explained then, and be familiar enough with the area to do that instead?

 

[Cherokee]

In earlier threads about the lake, someone mentioned that local kids would go there to party. Is the area she was found at consistent with that sort of scenario, in your estimation?

IMO, no.

 

[Cherokee]

What do people fish for at that time of the year? Would they have needed a boat?

At any time of year, people would fish for bass, catfish and crappie.

HD wasn't little, she was the size of an adult woman.

IMHO, a person should not make assertions of which they have no knowledge. Hailey was NOT the size of an adult woman. She was 5'1" tall. The average Caucasian adult woman living in the US is 5'5" tall.

The edge of a lake seems an odd place to hide a body though.

It might seem odd to you, but not to other people.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Are there any cattails or tall grass around this lake? Those usually last into the winter and would hide a body.

Also, do you know if this area was burned over in the wildfires?

I was just thinking how ironic it is that while many of us worried that Hailey's remains would be destroyed by the fires, her body was actually close to water which might protect the remains.

 

[Cherokee]

But, if that is so, they would also know what you just said. Dumping a body in an area where it would be more likely to be found doesn't make sense if they wanted to hide it.

I understand you are trying to defend the POI. Let me begin with the fallacy of your statement. The POI would not necessarily KNOW that dumping a body on an oil lease would be a better hiding place than burying it at the lake edge. You are assuming to know what the POI was thinking. Furthermore, you have twisted my words to say something I didn't say.

I never said Hailey was dumped in an area where she was more likely to be found. I don't think the POI ever thought she'd be found because she was either dumped in the water or buried in the mud where it was easier to dig. It is only by chance that Mr. Lloyd stumbled upon her remains after they had been scattered by wild animals.

People might have still been fishing at Lake JB Thomas when Hailey was placed there, but there weren't as many fishermen as in the past, and the number has continued to dwindle. That lake is practically deserted now because it's little more than a big muddy pond at present. It's not like tons of people were camping and fishing on its shores even in 2010, like some lakes back east. I don't think anyone, except those who live out here, can appreciate the lack of population in this area.

 

[Cherokee]

Well, if you read it, he says he used to go fishing with his grandfather a lot, and the place he likes fishing is the creek behind his grandmothers house. So, that is probably where they went fishing.

I did read it, and even though he mentions the creek behind his grandmother's house, it is ridiculous to ASSUME that is the ONLY place he ever went fishing in the area, especially with Lake JB Thomas just NW of where they lived and Lake Colorado City SW of their location.

Beyond that the only other fishing was a deep sea trip, which probably would have been a thrill for someone like him.

Are you serious? Did you actually read what the host said and what Shawn said? She asked him for his favorite place to fish, and Shawn responded with the "deep sea" story. He said it was a favorite memory, NOT THE ONLY OTHER TIME OR PLACE HE EVER WENT FISHING!!!

How you can say that was "the only other fishing" is beyond me. Not only are you misreading what was said, you are making assertions that cannot be made.

My guess is that he is not really a fisherman beyond that.

Well, at least you are admitting you're guessing instead of making absolute statements based on assumptions. However, you have no idea whether Shawn was really a fisherman or not. You're just trying to negate anything that might make Shawn look guilty.

He did, however, work in the oil industry, probably doing the sort of thing you described in your earlier post. Surely he would know what you explained then, and be familiar enough with the area to do that instead?

Oh my, once again you are reaching. You are assuming to know what Shawn would know and do.

The fact that Hailey was taken to a place known by locals, and not transients, is what is important. Anyone can dump a body on a lease road, but will that destroy evidence on the body? Not as fast as dumping it in water, or burying it in mud. The perp felt it was important to try to dispose of Hailey's body in such a way as to minimize the chances of it being found AND to minimize any recovery of evidence.

In addition, because Shawn worked for WSI, he may have been hesitant to have been seen on a lease road for that very reason. If he ran into someone who knew him, they could place him at the scene.

 

[Tugela]

At any time of year, people would fish for bass, catfish and crappie.

IMHO, a person should not make assertions of which they have no knowledge. Hailey was NOT the size of an adult woman. She was 5'1" tall. The average Caucasian adult woman living in the US is 5'5" tall.

It might seem odd to you, but not to other people.

So, they would be using boats?

On a receding shoreline or in the water, a body makes a pretty obvious target for someone on a boat (bodies float), because they get close to shore, which is why I asked. IMO hiding a body on a lake shore is not really an effective method of concealment. If SA was an avid fisherman as you suggest, and used that lake, he no doubt would have thought of that.

Adult women typically range from 5.0 to 5.10. So she is in that range. Plus, she was a big girl. So, hiding her body would be no different from hiding the body of an adult.

As I mentioned, in earlier threads, when the body was first found, posters claimed that was an area frequented by kids to party IIRC. That is why I asked that. If they didn't party at that specific spot, where on the lake would they have?

 

[Tugela]

I understand you are trying to defend the POI. Let me begin with the fallacy of your statement. The POI would not necessarily KNOW that dumping a body on an oil lease would be a better hiding place than burying it at the lake edge. You are assuming to know what the POI was thinking. Furthermore, you have twisted my words to say something I didn't say.

I never said Hailey was dumped in an area where she was more likely to be found. I don't think the POI ever thought she'd be found because she was either dumped in the water or buried in the mud where it was easier to dig. It is only by chance that Mr. Lloyd stumbled upon her remains after they had been scattered by wild animals.

People might have still been fishing at Lake JB Thomas when Hailey was placed there, but there weren't as many fishermen as in the past, and the number has continued to dwindle. That lake is practically deserted now because it's little more than a big muddy pond at present. It's not like tons of people were camping and fishing on its shores even in 2010, like some lakes back east. I don't think anyone, except those who live out here, can appreciate the lack of population in this area.

I think you quite clearly said that the best place to hide a body was on one of these oil reservations, because no one ever went there and it would be unlikely to be discovered. This was information offered by you, not by me, I don't know the area.

Where I live if you wanted to hide a body in the countryside it would be out in the woods, not by a body of water, because people tend to do stuff around water, whereas out in the woods, a few dozen yards off the logging road you will be on land that probably no human foot has ever stepped on. No one would ever find them, and in a few months the bears would convert them into a few scattered bones.

SA had a job working at one of these places, so he would know this too. Except, you obviously don't have bears in Texas, but other animals probably do the same thing.

We think he knew the lake, but we know he knew the oil lands. So which would be the more likely spot in his mind to hide a body?

 

[sadnpod]

I have no idea what SA would think is a more likely spot to hide a body.

What I do know is.. bodies found in water (swamps, or buried in mud) are far less likely to hold clues for COD. Evidence is lost in the water. Not so much on dry land. The same is true for bodies discarded in dumpsters and trash heaps. The evidence becomes contaminated.

It would seem to me that disposing of a body on the "oil lands" would directly lead LE back to SA. I would also think the same wild animals are in both places.

Locals.. is this lake a place that people would hang out at in DECEMBER? I just dont picture a norman rockwell scene of people boating, grilling out and a lake full of people to see you disposing of a body in December.

 

[sadnpod]

so, they would be using boats?

On a receding shoreline or in the water, a body makes a pretty obvious target for someone on a boat (bodies float), because they get close to shore, which is why i asked. Imo hiding a body on a lake shore is not really an effective method of concealment. If sa was an avid fisherman as you suggest, and used that lake, he no doubt would have thought of that.

Adult women typically range from 5.0 to 5.10. So she is in that range. plus, she was a big girl. so, hiding her body would be no different from hiding the body of an adult.

As i mentioned, in earlier threads, when the body was first found, posters claimed that was an area frequented by kids to party iirc. That is why i asked that. If they didn't party at that specific spot, where on the lake would they have?

BBM: Huh? A big girl?
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dunn_hailey.html

5'1"-5'2" and 120 lbs is not a "big girl".

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Why is her Charley Project still up?


I could have sworn I read somewhere that visibility on that lake was less than a foot? It means nothing if she's floating on top of the water, but if what I read was true if she was submerged they probably wouldn't have found her.

I have a couple theories of what could have happened:

1. She was left at the shore, hidden in some reeds or tall grass or whatever surrounds the shore, picked apart by animals, and found two years later.

2. She was thrown into the lake, washed up to shore, repeat what I just said

3. She also could have been weighted down and during decomp the weights came loose, that might be why so little of the bones were found?



I feel like this is a case where even if it gets resolved, it won't get fully resolved.

 

[kirby]

I think you quite clearly said that the best place to hide a body was on one of these oil reservations, because no one ever went there and it would be unlikely to be discovered. This was information offered by you, not by me, I don't know the area.

Where I live if you wanted to hide a body in the countryside it would be out in the woods, not by a body of water, because people tend to do stuff around water, whereas out in the woods, a few dozen yards off the logging road you will be on land that probably no human foot has ever stepped on. No one would ever find them, and in a few months the bears would convert them into a few scattered bones.

SA had a job working at one of these places, so he would know this too. Except, you obviously don't have bears in Texas, but other animals probably do the same thing.

We think he knew the lake, but we know he knew the oil lands. So which would be the more likely spot in his mind to hide a body?

I think you may be invisioning a lake in "bear country". Unfortunately, this lake in not scenic at all. This is not a natural, beautiful lake surrounded by woods. Its ugly. Many lakes in West Texas are built by state or federal government for water conservation. They are surrounded by thousands of acres of desloate, public access land. Yes, we use them for fishing,camping and boating (well, we did before the drought), but there is nothing to entice us to visit the outlaying areas - no hiking trails, no pretty forests - just cactus mesquite tree, vinagarones and rattlesnakes. Remember, I said public access land. Oil rigs in this area, however, are generally on private land that is leased by oil companies. The land itself is fenced with barbed wire and has no public access. You will see very little unfenced land when traveling through West Texas.

 

[kirby]

Tugela,
Attached is a picture of the lake. the further you pan out, the uglier it gets.

 

[Cherokee]

Are there any cattails or tall grass around this lake? Those usually last into the winter and would hide a body.

Also, do you know if this area was burned over in the wildfires?

I was just thinking how ironic it is that while many of us worried that Hailey's remains would be destroyed by the fires, her body was actually close to water which might protect the remains.

Hi ThoughtFox, I tried to reply to your post last night (early this morning), but I guess the server crashed because I couldn't get into WS or FFJ ... or maybe my computer went wobbly. Either way, I apologize for not getting to your post sooner.

There are a few patches of taller grass, but not very many now because of the drought. There would have been more in 2010.

I do not know if the exact area where Hailey was found was burned over, but IMO, it was not. You have to understand we have had so many wildfires, especially in the summer of 2011, it was hard to keep track of them all. Some were huge, some were patchy. In some, people lost homes, animals and everything they had; others were no more than a small grassfire. Perhaps, someone who lives closer to the lake might know the answer to your question, but as I said, I don't believe that area was burned. The fact that Hailey's blue sweatpants still survive seems to confirm that it wasn't.

 

[Cherokee]

So, they would be using boats?

No, not necessarily; especially not since the drought. A few might use boats, but others would fish from the lake edge. You're not a fisherman, are you, or you would know that. You can fish for bass, catfish and crappie from anywhere. But nice try in trying to bring in the boat scenario.

As I said earlier, in the middle of December, there wouldn't have been that many people fishing, especially at dusk. Especially at this lake. It's not beauty queen and it's not that big, even when it had more water.

On a receding shoreline or in the water, a body makes a pretty obvious target for someone on a boat (bodies float), because they get close to shore, which is why I asked. IMO hiding a body on a lake shore is not really an effective method of concealment. If SA was an avid fisherman as you suggest, and used that lake, he no doubt would have thought of that.

Oh for crying out loud. We've been through this before. Did you not read my post on another thread that explained bodies only float for a short time after being submerged, then after the gasses are released by decomposition, they submerge again. Read up on that before you make such a statement. Furthermore, there would be such few people out there fishing at that time of year, it would be a miracle for anyone to see it if it did float for a short amount of time. However, I don't believe the POI just threw her in the lake. As I have said before, buried in the watery mud at the edge of the lake. Bodies buried in the mud DON'T FLOAT.

And once again, you are assuming to know what the POI would have thought.

The point was to not only hide the body but to also DESTROY evidence! IMO, that was the most important consideration. Sure, the body might be found eventually, but by then, most of the condemning evidence would be effectively destroyed by water and mud.

Adult women typically range from 5.0 to 5.10. So she is in that range. Plus, she was a big girl. So, hiding her body would be no different from hiding the body of an adult.

You like to quibble, don't you. Okay, let's use your "range." Hailey was at the small end of it at 5'1". She was NOT the size of a typical adult female, which is larger. That range is a bell curve, and Hailey was at the short end of it. My point was, trying to bury her was NOT the same as trying to bury a typical adult female or male. When I said she was a "little mite," it was in reference to her being a child and not a fully-grown adult at 13-years-old.

As I mentioned, in earlier threads, when the body was first found, posters claimed that was an area frequented by kids to party IIRC. That is why I asked that. If they didn't party at that specific spot, where on the lake would they have?

I have no idea, but I'm smart enough know what you're are trying to insinuate.

It is my suspicion you could be the POI's lawyer (or their agent provocateur) because of your arguments and the way in which you phrase them. It is obvious you are looking for a way to defend the POI, and perhaps see if people can be swayed by any of these arguments or suggestions.

 

[Cherokee]

I think you quite clearly said that the best place to hide a body was on one of these oil reservations, because no one ever went there and it would be unlikely to be discovered. This was information offered by you, not by me, I don't know the area.

I DID NOT SAY the "best place to hide a body" was on an oil lease! Go read my post again. I never said that. I said perps dispose of bodies on oil leases. I should have added that when this is done, the killer obviously does not care about the quick removal of evidence. In addition, they don't want to dig a grave and there's no body of water nearby. Believe me, there are very FEW lakes in the west Texas area, and most of those were made by the government. They are not natural. There WAS a body of water near where Hailey lived and that was known by the POI, so that was convenient. By the way, the are not "oil reservations." They are "oil leases" on ranchland. It's not like people aren't allowed on them.

Where I live if you wanted to hide a body in the countryside it would be out in the woods, not by a body of water, because people tend to do stuff around water, whereas out in the woods, a few dozen yards off the logging road you will be on land that probably no human foot has ever stepped on. No one would ever find them, and in a few months the bears would convert them into a few scattered bones.

Well, that's where you live. That's not the reality of west Texas. We have no woods, and our "lakes" are ugly. There are no trees, and they are out in the open. And people don't "tend to do stuff around water." Our "lakes" are not magnets, especially not the past few years. They are little more than muddy holes with lousy fishing. As you can imagine, the drought has taken it's toll on the fish populations, and the muddiness of the lakes as they have lost their water depth is horrible. They weren't pristine, blue water lakes to begin with. They are pretty much abandoned now.

SA had a job working at one of these places, so he would know this too. Except, you obviously don't have bears in Texas, but other animals probably do the same thing.

The fact that the POI worked at WSI would make him NOT want to place Hailey's body on an oil lease because it would naturally lead back to him! He could not, and would not, have known how long it would take to find her body if he placed it on an oil lease. Sometimes the bodies are found within months, sometimes within years. However, don't you think that working for an oil service company would be a damning piece of evidence if Hailey's body were found on an oil lease? The POI couldn't take that chance! Besides, IMHO, he wanted to destroy evidence, too, and the best way to do that is water or mud burial.

We think he knew the lake, but we know he knew the oil lands. So which would be the more likely spot in his mind to hide a body?

Answer: A

Why incriminate himself by dumping Hailey's body on an oil lease when he worked for an oil service company. Besides, the lake area would result in faster decomposition and destruction of evidence.

 

[Cherokee]

I have no idea what SA would think is a more likely spot to hide a body.

What I do know is.. bodies found in water (swamps, or buried in mud) are far less likely to hold clues for COD. Evidence is lost in the water. Not so much on dry land. The same is true for bodies discarded in dumpsters and trash heaps. The evidence becomes contaminated.

It would seem to me that disposing of a body on the "oil lands" would directly lead LE back to SA. I would also think the same wild animals are in both places.

Locals.. is this lake a place that people would hang out at in DECEMBER? I just dont picture a norman rockwell scene of people boating, grilling out and a lake full of people to see you disposing of a body in December.

Exactly right, Sadnpod! Thank you for this post!

As for your question ... no, the lake is not a place where people would hang out in December! It is definitely not a Norman Rockwell scene. It never has been, as least in the recent past. What I can't seem to get across to some people is this is not a busy, recreational, fun-filled lake as is common in the rest of the country.

 

[katydid23]

I think you quite clearly said that the best place to hide a body was on one of these oil reservations, because no one ever went there and it would be unlikely to be discovered. This was information offered by you, not by me, I don't know the area.

Where I live if you wanted to hide a body in the countryside it would be out in the woods, not by a body of water, because people tend to do stuff around water, whereas out in the woods, a few dozen yards off the logging road you will be on land that probably no human foot has ever stepped on. No one would ever find them, and in a few months the bears would convert them into a few scattered bones.

SA had a job working at one of these places, so he would know this too. Except, you obviously don't have bears in Texas, but other animals probably do the same thing.

We think he knew the lake, but we know he knew the oil lands. So which would be the more likely spot in his mind to hide a body?

We don't 'think' he knew the lake. we KNOW he knew it. He grew up 20 miles away from that lake.

 

[Cherokee]

I think you may be invisioning a lake in "bear country". Unfortunately, this lake in not scenic at all. This is not a natural, beautiful lake surrounded by woods. Its ugly. Many lakes in West Texas are built by state or federal government for water conservation. They are surrounded by thousands of acres of desloate, public access land. Yes, we use them for fishing,camping and boating (well, we did before the drought), but there is nothing to entice us to visit the outlaying areas - no hiking trails, no pretty forests - just cactus mesquite tree, vinagarones and rattlesnakes. Remember, I said public access land. Oil rigs in this area, however, are generally on private land that is leased by oil companies. The land itself is fenced with barbed wire and has no public access. You will see very little unfenced land when traveling through West Texas.

Thanks so much, Kirby, for this post! You have described west Texas and Lake JB Thomas, to a tee. :highfive: