Analyzing the Ramsey family

[Pursuit of Truth]

Heres'a thought... didn't the maid or housekeeper walk in on the kids playing "doctor"? Couldn't her signs of sexual abuse be more from something like that like some kids do? And not some intended sexual abuse thing? These is my thought on her signs of sexual abuse. Kids do this. Ask any pediatrician or child psychologist. It's not sexually driven, but curiosity driven in young children and more common than you may think. What if the kids had been "playing" in her bed or something earlier that night and then the whole pineapple fiasco followed by the blow to the head. Just thinking .... this may account for that trauma. I feel like he bashed her on the head, to which she went unconscious and then he was poking her with the train tracks to try to get her to respond or wakeup. Hence the "stun gun" marks . Thoughts?

 

[angelevie]

Heres'a thought... didn't the maid or housekeeper walk in on the kids playing "doctor"? Couldn't her signs of sexual abuse be more from something like that like some kids do? And not some intended sexual abuse thing? These is my thought on her signs of sexual abuse. Kids do this. Ask any pediatrician or child psychologist. It's not sexually driven, but curiosity driven in young children and more common than you may think. What if the kids had been "playing" in her bed or something earlier that night and then the whole pineapple fiasco followed by the blow to the head. Just thinking .... this may account for that trauma. I feel like he bashed her on the head, to which she went unconscious and then he was poking her with the train tracks to try to get her to respond or wakeup. Hence the "stun gun" marks . Thoughts?

great input! thank you for your response to the thread!

I agree that her mild signs of sexual abuse could very likely be from "exploration" in childhood. as kids get older, especially with someone of the opposite sex getting older alongside them, naturally they begin to gradually discover the differences between each biological sex. masturbation is common in children, and even more so in kids who are having health issues related to their genitalia or excessive stress being put on them... it's a way to self-soothe, for many. for JonBenét, she was being put under a pretty intense schedule for practice, pageantry, etc. in the last year and a half of her life... this led to health issues I'm sure, and of course she was bed-wetting chronically during this time. I'm sure bed-wetting was talked about at her doctor's appointments... the pre-occupation with her bed-wetting and the vague accounts of other potty-related issues with the Ramsey kids could've put a lot of fixation on that for JonBenét. a similar thing happened with me as a child. (just a warning, this is my personal experience with csa!)

then again, there also is a fine line that can at some point be crossed with "playing doctor". I was assaulted on multiple occasions by my male neighbor who was 3-4 years older than me... I was 6-7 years old at that time, making him about 9-10. we were close friends and he was like a brother to me, after mine moved out to college. he would play games like "marriage" and "doctors" and use that to manipulate me into letting him explore his curiosity when he was becoming aware of something, and I was still too young to really get it. I was also having chronic urinary tract infections due to a physical problem I was born with. all of that led me to have a fixation on that part of my body. even though he was still technically a child, he certainly knew more about what he was doing than I did, so there's a debate on whether it's assault or not as a kid arguably might not fully understand the intensity of their actions. the reason I say I was assaulted is that he knew well enough to hide from adults what was happening and it was very upsetting for me as a kid, I had a lot of unexplained phobias and issues at school. it's known as cocsa (child-on-child sexual assault/abuse).

I'm not saying Burke was doing this. my neighbor had some mental health issues that I don't particularly see in Burke, but I really don't know. what I'm saying is, even with kids being naive and just exploring, there will come a certain point in it where it can become excessive and detrimental to one or both children.

but yes, it is plausible that with the bed-wetting and stress + plain old childhood curiosity, JonBenét may have fallen into some "private" habits. it's common, as you said! but that, we'll never really know... I do think if the kids did stuff like this around each other, neither was really aware. I don't think Burke was like my neighbor. whatever it was with JonBenét wasn't violent rape... that would exhibit very, very different clinical/physical signs, in my opinion as someone who is studying pediatric nursing and childhood development. what she had was very minor in the grand scheme of things and could be chalked up to things other than abuse. tl;dr, I agree that it's a big possibility this was self-induced or "accidental".

about the train tracks, I've heard that a lot... I've never known what to think about it personally! I definitely 100% rule out a stun-gun. there was no stun-gun... but I didn't think a kid gently poking his sister with train tracks could do that kind of skin damage, either, but when you consider maybe she was already deceased and livor mortis setting in when she was poked, it's possible those marks would be left from even small contact like Burke poking her with train tracks. but the evidence confirming her breathing and pulse didn't officially stop, and therefore she wasn't dead, until the strangulation... that's a lot of action Burke would've carried out by himself. I don't think the strangulation came until Patsy and John's involvement and I seriously doubt once they were involved that Burke would've been allowed anywhere near JonBenét. so that's just a mini hole in the theory for me... I'm very willing to be proven otherwise though! very interested in hearing your thoughts

 

[Veronica Lodge]

Taking everything into account - the many dr's visits, the bedwetting, the visits to the school nurse, the size of JonBenet's vagina and broken hymen, plus the knowledge that she would willingly sleep in his bedroom, I don't think Burke was guilty of abusing her. Patsy would not have just let him carry on if she knew Burke was hurting her (and potentially ruining her pageants etc) BUT if Patsy suspected her husband was behaving inappropriately, well, he brought the money in, so she had to step carefully. She may have taken JonBenet to the dr in the hope he would examine her and confront the issue that way. Meanwhile Patsy could stay in conflicted denial.

The marks may be from train tracks, yes, but there were other abrasions on her as well and I think people can sometimes get stuck on a theory ie. stun gun or train tracks when in reality it's something completely different. BDSM or rope play could leave similar marks depending on what toys are used. (I'm not saying the marks are from that, just that there could be other explanations).

 

[kaykay543]

"I agree that her mild signs of sexual abuse could very likely be from "exploration" in childhood"

There is no such thing as "mild signs of sexual abuse" with a child. Not sure where anyone would get that JBR's signs were "mild"

It always surprises me that very few people think JR was the one molesting JBR. Or that he was the killer. In my opinion he was the one molesting her. And in my opinion PR knew. So many mothers deny knowing but they knew.

 

[Tadpole12]

"I agree that her mild signs of sexual abuse could very likely be from "exploration" in childhood"

There is no such thing as "mild signs of sexual abuse" with a child. Not sure where anyone would get that JBR's signs were "mild"

It always surprises me that very few people think JR was the one molesting JBR. Or that he was the killer. In my opinion he was the one molesting her. And in my opinion PR knew. So many mothers deny knowing but they knew.

kk, probably just bad wording wrt the qualifier,
ie a 'little bit molested'

ya, JDI has always had far fewer proponents than ST's PDI.

 

[Tadpole12]

Taking everything into account - the many dr's visits, the bedwetting, the visits to the school nurse, the size of JonBenet's vagina and broken hymen, plus the knowledge that she would willingly sleep in his bedroom, I don't think Burke was guilty of abusing her. Patsy would not have just let him carry on if she knew Burke was hurting her (and potentially ruining her pageants etc) BUT if Patsy suspected her husband was behaving inappropriately, well, he brought the money in, so she had to step carefully. She may have taken JonBenet to the dr in the hope he would examine her and confront the issue that way. Meanwhile Patsy could stay in conflicted denial.

The marks may be from train tracks, yes, but there were other abrasions on her as well and I think people can sometimes get stuck on a theory ie. stun gun or train tracks when in reality it's something completely different. BDSM or rope play could leave similar marks depending on what toys are used. (I'm not saying the marks are from that, just that there could be other explanations).

huh, That's an interesting consideration. I have always thought the abrasions were related to dragging, but my reference point would have been to typical 'linear' type rope burns.

 

[Tadpole12]

about the train tracks, I've heard that a lot...

someone over at tidder JBR/ recreated the train track experiment,
with similar results, iirc?

 

[Tadpole12]

Another interesting point is when John leaves us is who gains control of the Ramsey Estate/Office, his latest wife or Burke? - UK

Don't forget about the other 2 children as possible trustees.
BR seems better suited at the helm of a sailboat than ...

 

[Veronica Lodge]

"I agree that her mild signs of sexual abuse could very likely be from "exploration" in childhood"

There is no such thing as "mild signs of sexual abuse" with a child. Not sure where anyone would get that JBR's signs were "mild"

It always surprises me that very few people think JR was the one molesting JBR. Or that he was the killer. In my opinion he was the one molesting her. And in my opinion PR knew. So many mothers deny knowing but they knew.

Yes! I know right? It's like John seems to hypnotise people or something? I get bloody annoyed that for some reason Burke is considered likely when John is the sleaze who liked his 'attractive' ladies and had affairs. His dressing gown with semen on (ugh) was even there for all to see. John told lie after lie and people swallowed it up. Burke was 9. My son could barely tie his own shoelaces at 9, (and he is not a dumb kid if that's what you're thinking haha!)

huh, That's an interesting consideration. I have always thought the abrasions were related to dragging, but my reference point would have been to typical 'linear' type rope burns.

Hi Tadpole12, I've missed you. Look I'm not saying the marks are from bondage etc but some of the toys used do have buckle bits and parts that may have pressed into her skin. That plus the rope itself can mark - especially delicate child skin. You don't have to look at too many weird websites (haha) but even Amazon sell toys and rope sets which show what I mean.

 

[kaykay543]

Yes! I know right? It's like John seems to hypnotise people or something? I get bloody annoyed that for some reason Burke is considered likely when John is the sleaze who liked his 'attractive' ladies and had affairs. His dressing gown with semen on (ugh) was even there for all to see. John told lie after lie and people swallowed it up. Burke was 9. My son could barely tie his own shoelaces at 9, (and he is not a dumb kid if that's what you're thinking haha!)

Hi Tadpole12, I've missed you. Look I'm not saying the marks are from bondage etc but some of the toys used do have buckle bits and parts that may have pressed into her skin. That plus the rope itself can mark - especially delicate child skin. You don't have to look at too many weird websites (haha) but even Amazon sell toys and rope sets which show what I mean.

Yes I don't know what it is with JR that so many give him a pass. Just because hes an educated wealthy man doesn't mean he wasn't the one molesting her. In my opinion, it makes much more sense than BR.

In my opinion, it had been going on for quite sometime. Which led to the toileting issues. Very common for a child being molested.

I always ask myself this in an unsolved murder--Who had the most to lose if she lived?

 

[angelevie]

"I agree that her mild signs of sexual abuse could very likely be from "exploration" in childhood"

There is no such thing as "mild signs of sexual abuse" with a child. Not sure where anyone would get that JBR's signs were "mild"

It always surprises me that very few people think JR was the one molesting JBR. Or that he was the killer. In my opinion he was the one molesting her. And in my opinion PR knew. So many mothers deny knowing but they knew.

poor wording on my part, I'm very sorry! I don't have the ability to describe this I suppose but I meant more that, in what I've read, she didn't solidly have any evidence of violent or forceful tearing to the vaginal opening, other than the hymen being broken. but, hymens can be broken for reasons other than sexual intercourse, such as riding a bike, horseback riding, gymnastics/dance, etc. it is a vestigial structure and is very thin, therefore easy to break without intercourse taking place. most people break theirs before the first time they have sex.

the reason I described it like that is more of a personal understanding — what I meant was that in my limited knowledge of the in-depth investigation, it didn't seem to me that she had been violently abused on an everyday basis without question, which is what I would quantify as "severe." children who are being beaten, locked up, regularly penetrated by objects or body parts much larger than they are capable of (ack sorry about that awkward way of describing it... I'm trying to avoid saying something really horrific and graphic, I already feel icky talking about stuff like this as it is haha), in a very violent manner... that is what I view as severe. that is just my personal opinion. and those signs are very, very obvious and not able to be attributed to anything else, the way JonBenét's signs could be. the size of her vaginal opening could be from a regular medical intervention if she was having issues with her genitalia, such as bed-wetting.

I'm not saying John didn't do it, he could very well have. child sexual abuse perpetrated by men like him is more common than many would like to admit. I was simply saying there is enough reasonable doubt in her autopsy results regarding her "vaginal trauma" that it's possible that John is not guilty of molestation, despite me personally thinking he's sketchy and unsettling personality-wise... being sketchy doesn't make someone an offender and seeming squeaky-clean doesn't make someone innocent, we all know that.

I was just playing devil's advocate + responding to a theory that her signs could be from things other than sexual abuse, which in my experience they can.
in this case, I truly don't dismiss anyone as guilty or innocent, but I also just have this weird hunch that John didn't molest her. not because I think he's a saint, because I don't. I think he's very disingenuous, but I'm just not convinced he sexually assaulted her and never have been. I don't know why. I can't really explain it. maybe it's because in my experience abusers like to have a tight leash on their victims and often seem overly involved with them, and John seemed to be pretty distant and more focused on work and himself than on monitoring his kids. but I know it's certainly possible that I'm wrong. after all, he was the one who supposedly "got her ready for bed."

 

[Maldoror]

I recently found out on this very site that some people allege Patsy performed douching on JBR as "punishment" for her bedwetting. I find that to be extremely sensational and scandalous: if true, that would be sexually abusive in its own right. Does anyone have any evidence to support such claims?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I recently found out on this very site that some people allege Patsy performed douching on JBR as "punishment" for her bedwetting. I find that to be extremely sensational and scandalous: if true, that would be sexually abusive in its own right. Does anyone have any evidence to support such claims?

No, none.

 

[David Rogers]

That was conjecture based on the screaming coming from JonBenet in the bathroom AHM she was in there with Patsy. The maid said she heard JonBenét screaming. Not sure where the douching reference cam from.

 

[angelevie]

That was conjecture based on the screaming coming from JonBenet in the bathroom AHM she was in there with Patsy. The maid said she heard JonBenét screaming. Not sure where the douching reference cam from.

not sure where the douching came from either... it's certainly possible, as is anything, but I think it's super unlikely. screaming could definitely have been from things other than punishments, anyways... maybe Patsy was brushing her hair, and it got pulled, maybe she was trying to make JonBenét wear something she didn't want to, maybe it was bed or bath time, and JonBenét wanted to keep playing... kids scream and cry for many different reasons, it's part of their communication. I assume AHM stands for "around her murder" (forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not very well-versed on sleuth lingo) and I'm curious: I thought the maids were not working on Christmas? or is it not clear whether they were or not?

 

[Swirlz]

I've been here forever and I have no idea what AHM stands for.

A former maid claimed that during the time she was employed by the family she would hear screams coming from the bathroom when Patsy would take JB in there with her after she'd had potty accidents. People put that together with the autopsy results showing damage to JB's hymen and came up with the douching theory.

 

[angelevie]

I've been here forever and I have no idea what AHM stands for.

A former maid claimed that during the time she was employed by the family she would hear screams coming from the bathroom when Patsy would take JB in there with her after she'd had potty accidents. People put that together with the autopsy results showing damage to JB's hymen and came up with the douching theory.

thank you! that clears a lot up for me... gosh, that's really awful if true... I think corporal punishment is a horrible thing to do as punishment for kids, let alone more... um.. invasive methods... I still doubt it though. it seems very messy and I don't imagine Patsy as the kind of person to be bothered to do something like that, but maybe if she was angry enough and sick in the head enough.

 

[kaykay543]

poor wording on my part, I'm very sorry! I don't have the ability to describe this I suppose but I meant more that, in what I've read, she didn't solidly have any evidence of violent or forceful tearing to the vaginal opening, other than the hymen being broken. but, hymens can be broken for reasons other than sexual intercourse, such as riding a bike, horseback riding, gymnastics/dance, etc. it is a vestigial structure and is very thin, therefore easy to break without intercourse taking place. most people break theirs before the first time they have sex.

the reason I described it like that is more of a personal understanding — what I meant was that in my limited knowledge of the in-depth investigation, it didn't seem to me that she had been violently abused on an everyday basis without question, which is what I would quantify as "severe." children who are being beaten, locked up, regularly penetrated by objects or body parts much larger than they are capable of (ack sorry about that awkward way of describing it... I'm trying to avoid saying something really horrific and graphic, I already feel icky talking about stuff like this as it is haha), in a very violent manner... that is what I view as severe. that is just my personal opinion. and those signs are very, very obvious and not able to be attributed to anything else, the way JonBenét's signs could be. the size of her vaginal opening could be from a regular medical intervention if she was having issues with her genitalia, such as bed-wetting.

I'm not saying John didn't do it, he could very well have. child sexual abuse perpetrated by men like him is more common than many would like to admit. I was simply saying there is enough reasonable doubt in her autopsy results regarding her "vaginal trauma" that it's possible that John is not guilty of molestation, despite me personally thinking he's sketchy and unsettling personality-wise... being sketchy doesn't make someone an offender and seeming squeaky-clean doesn't make someone innocent, we all know that.

I was just playing devil's advocate + responding to a theory that her signs could be from things other than sexual abuse, which in my experience they can.
in this case, I truly don't dismiss anyone as guilty or innocent, but I also just have this weird hunch that John didn't molest her. not because I think he's a saint, because I don't. I think he's very disingenuous, but I'm just not convinced he sexually assaulted her and never have been. I don't know why. I can't really explain it. maybe it's because in my experience abusers like to have a tight leash on their victims and often seem overly involved with them, and John seemed to be pretty distant and more focused on work and himself than on monitoring his kids. but I know it's certainly possible that I'm wrong. after all, he was the one who supposedly "got her ready for bed."

There is no need to go into graphic detail on what is "severe" child sexual abuse. It does nothing for the conversation.

All the doctors that looked at JBR and her autopsy findings agreed that there were signs of prior sexual abuse. Dr McCann was one of the worlds leading experts on child sexual abuse. Her trauma was not caused by a bike, horse or medical intervention. Her pediatrician said he never did an internal exam on her.

I am truly not trying to pick on you. I just feel strongly that what this little girl went through should not be minimized by anyone. She had many signs of being sexually abused even without the physical exam. And not all sexual abuse centers on the vagina. None of us will ever know for sure what she went though. But there is no question that she was sexually molested.

 

[Nadal]

Yes I don't know what it is with JR that so many give him a pass. Just because hes an educated wealthy man doesn't mean he wasn't the one molesting her. In my opinion, it makes much more sense than BR.

Most people think Patsy wrote the ransom note and wouldn't have covered for John due to their relationship issues, that only leaves Patsy herself or Burke in the RDI scenarios. I don't believe that myself necessarily but that's why John is suspected the least often of killing her i believe.

I've actually seen John accused of molesting her more often than Burke but i think that's because i used to discuss this case years ago. Burke Did It has got much more popular since his interview. Patsy Did It used to be the most popular in my experience and one of the most common stories was that she blackmailed John into covering it up with her because she knew he was molesting Jonbenet. Burke certainly gets the most accusations now just pointing out that John has been accused plenty.

 

[Nadal]

Here's a thread with a poll on this site that was started in 2004 - Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

PDI is first with IDI second BDI third and JDI last. I bet a lot of the PDI votes believed John was molesting Jonbenet. Patsy killing Jonbenet out of jealousy was even a popular stomach churning theory at one point from what i remember. PDI had 207 votes more than BDI and IDI had 119 more, shows how much things have changed as i think BDI would come first now.