Another drowning in La Crosse, WI - 8th since 1997

[Ang50]

btw, here's a question- how many college town drinking areas ARE right on the mississippi? i imagine there are a lot.. but if lacrosse were the only one-- then there's your answer.

Well, there's Winona - a college town practically right across the Mississippi, and their bars are much closer, or right on the river. No deaths that anyone can remember. Farther down is an IL college town with bars on the water where Kruziki did drown. Farther up is the St. Croix - and I used to live in one of the towns on it, Hudson. Bars and a big park on the river. No deaths. Stillwater on the other side - no deaths. U of M has the river running right through it - there have been deaths. Other towns have had deaths in small amounts of water, creeks, lakes, etc. See Vance Holmes for the stats.

La Crosse, though, is way out of wack for number of deaths in the number of years. And while the Mississippi would be harder to get out of once you were in, the falling in part is what I can't understand. UW-Madison has the Terrace right on the water (beer drinking) and a TON of frat houses with docks and all right on the lake. Plus Lakeshore Path and a number of dorms on teh lake. I can't remember a single soul ever falling into the lake, yet there's so much more opportunity for it. State Street is just as close to the lake as Third Street, and more residential, so people would be more likely to get disoriented. It just doesn't add up.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>And while the Mississippi would be harder to get out of once you were in, the falling in part is what I can't understand.<


I can. They were skunk drunk!

There isn't much to go on as far as any evidence aside from coincidence that points to a crime being committed.

I thought that I saw a news segment after the drowning before this last one that showed how easy it was to fall into the river. I thought I saw video of some of these bars that backed up almost right onto the river and if you walked out the wrong door you were right there. And it didn't look like there were any railings or anything that would stop someone. But I've never been there and perhaps you have so you would know better than I.

Some of the cruise ship dissappearances were obviously crimes but there were a couple of other mysterious ones until video showed one of the victims, skunk drunk, falling overboard. It must be really hard for the parents to face up to reality in cases like these. A total waste of a life for such a stupid act. I think it is easy for these parents to believe that someone else, a psychological boogey man so to speak, stole their child's life from them rather than believe that they got so drunk that they just simple fell in the river and drown.

Where would you start an investigation Ang50 if you were in charge? I find this an interesting case and if I was a police officer I guess I'd be anxious to try and solve the mystery. My mind isn't closed to other possibilities with this one so I would start with a map of all of the drownings in the area in the past 24 years. I would also look at each victim and where they were last seen and with whom. Did anyone see someone they didn't recognize with the victim? I find it surprising that over the years and all of the drownings that no one saw anyone in the area of the drownings that looked suspicious. Do the victims have any common link? So far all we have heard is that they all were very intoxicated. Since the incidents have happened over such a long time I would look at any businesses in the area that have been in existance for the entire time. Also look at owners and employees and who has been there consistently over those years working there or owning a business who would have had opportunity.

In reading up on some of the cases not all of them were in the same area. One was a student from MN who fell in a different body of water, the other fell in a lake. However he was last seen drinking in a bar in Eau Claire. One of the boys had been drinking at a Halloween party. They all were drinking.

Another one was found in a river in Indiana. He was attending Notre Dame U. So far there was not found any evidence of foul play on the bodies. All had died of drowning and this one too had a very high blood alcohol level 3 times the legal limit.

If I was a LE officer I would notice that these did not all occur in the same town nor in the same state. The victims were found in different bodies of water. The only commonality is extreme drunkeness and that they are all male.

After reading the Vance site I found nothing there to indicate that these cases are related except for college guys getting too drunk and drowning. There are so many different bodies of water that these victims were found in from rivers, creeks and lakes and across several states and different schools that I don't see a connection there except again the drinking.

This kind of thing has been going on for centuries most likely. In doing some family genealogy I was reading some very old newspapers and ran across a story of a man drinking in the taverns one winter evening and leaving late in his horse and buggy. Apparantly his driving skills left much to be desired and it was winter. He overturned the buggy and drown in the creek. In fact I ran across many drownings in my research. It was quite a common cause of death.

I didn't see anything there to point to a serial drowner and perhaps the police haven't either.

 

[Sherlockmom]

And if this doesn't say it all.


"Last seen "highly intoxicated" by an elderly woman who said he mistakenly walked into her house near the Chippewa River."

 

[reb]

could it be that there are college student drownings in other cities that just don't make the news as much? perhaps this particular town has really jumped on this issue as media hype. and in other cities, students drown & the papers don't pick up on it. i know in our town we have several drunken college-age drownings every year- it's just a blip in the news & then it's gone.
or maybe in this town they happen to have more lax drinking laws (meaning, no program to monitor drunks in bars, or refuse to serve after intoxicated, etc.-- like we have in TX- it's called the TABC, you have to be certified to be a bartender.)

and i have no problem believing someone with a 4x legal amount alcohol limit can walk, run, or fall into the river. maybe there's some other reason why it's happening more in this town, but so far nothing points to a serial killer.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>could it be that there are college student drownings in other cities that just don't make the news as much?



If you read the Vance site it was students from other places. It occurred in MN, MI, IN too. It's happening more there because there is a large body of water within walking distance. MN has the river right near campus also and they have had drownings as well.

There were several things that caught my eye on that site. At least a few places where it contradicted itself and had made incorrect statements. And glaringly it appeared that alot of this speculation is from grieving parents that can't come to grip with the facts that they lost a child in such a pointless stupid way. I have alot of empathy for them.

There is alot of emotional thinking there and little logical thinking. They keep mentioning that these were good students or that they had a high GPA. What does that have to do with anything? Most smart people get really stupid when they drink too much. And at least when my kids were in HS the smart kids had just as much trouble with alcohol and drug abuse as the less scholarly did. In fact the jocks were among the worst of all of them.

The repeated statements by the parents about what a good student they were or how active or well liked etc. they are trying to reason through this in their minds and just cannot accept that they are gone and all because of a stupid decision to go on a drinking binge.

As I said, I can understand the parents but I have a real hard time figuring out why anyone else would fall behind a theory like that with absolutely no evidence whatsoever other than their "gut feeling". Gut feelings are all well and good for a starting place but eventually you have to come up with some cold hard facts to support your theory. Otherwise, you have to change your theory.

Some people see a conspiracy theory behind every rock. The government and police are always in cahoots against the people and someone is always out to get them. We sometimes call these people the "glass half empty" type.

 

[Ang50]

And if this doesn't say it all.


"Last seen "highly intoxicated" by an elderly woman who said he mistakenly walked into her house near the Chippewa River."

This was not Luke - this was Michael Noll, a UW-Eau Claire student who drowned in the Chippewa.

My point with the falling in is that there are plenty of other bodies of water, with drunk students and bars closer to the water, yet drunk people don't fall in. What is it about the Mississippi that is such a draw to make drunk men go 2 blocks, cross a park and then just fall in?

Yes, I've been to Third Street, been drunk on Third Street, stayed at the Radisson overlooking Riverside Park, jogged in Riverside Park and been out quite late in Riverside Park. The popular bars, and the ones mentioned in connection with Luke, are not on the water. There's one near the water - Piggy's or Hogs - but it's a townie bar, not for students. All others require a walk of at least 3 or more blocks to get to the river.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>This was not Luke - this was Michael Noll, a UW-Eau Claire student who drowned in the Chippewa.<


I know but I quoted it because it illustrated how disorientated one can be when that intoxicated. The blood alcohol levels in many of these cases was so high that they were almost to the point where a human being loses consciousness. Which could explain why they were unable to save themselves.

>>My point with the falling in is that there are plenty of other bodies of water, with drunk students and bars closer to the water, yet drunk people don't fall in. What is it about the Mississippi that is such a draw to make drunk men go 2 blocks, cross a park and then just fall in? <<

It wasn't just the Mississippi that people are falling in. As I mentioned there were other bodies of water, rivers, creeks, lakes that intoxicated males were found drowned. It happens all over. In WI in the past few years there have been several cases of bodies being found on RR tracks. Investigation led to the conclusion that these people too were very drunk. What attracted them to walk to a RR track and lie down? Who knows? They are drunk. You are looking for logical thinking processes from an intoxicated person. They most likely think they are on their way home and going in the wrong direction.

 

[Ang50]

I don't know what the police know, so I can't say as easily where I would start an investigation.

However, I will tell you that there are some prevailing rumors that I would investigate. Although I recognize up front that in writing them, all I do is set myself up for everyone to criticize... but in the interest of discussion...

1. A bartender is involved. Everyone goes to the same bars - Coconut Joe's, the Library, Brothers. GBH is slipped into a drink, and the bartender watches at bar time for the victim.

2. A cop is involved. Offers the intoxicated a ride home, or says that he's going to detox.

3. The clothing issue. It's confirmed that Dion's hat was neatly placed on a post near the river. There's rumors about Luke's clothes being folded neatly. It does not fit with falling in - and cannot be summarily dismissed.

4. There is another site where a self proclaimed family friend has stated that Luke is on video at a fast food restaurant at 2:34am and is clearly not stumbling, drunk, etc. Also, same friend states that Luke was seen by numerous eyewitnesses after bar time heading towards his home, in the opposite direction of the river.

5. I would re-interview every person in the park that night. There were patrols going on until after 3:30am, and the police just said that Luke must have gone in the river after. So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him?

6. Then the usual suspects - homeless, gang initiation, etc.

7. I've done some reading on drowning as well. Drowning is often the default diagnosis when a victim is found in water. Occasionally trauma to the body is dismissed as coming after death and not before. So "no foul play" does not actually mean no injury was found on the body. Water in the lungs should be tested for diatoms. "Dry" drowning may account for lack of water in lungs, esp. if vic was intoxicated. However, it may also indicate that victim died prior to being placed in the water. (Source: Forensic Examiner Magazine - Fall 06)

I'm willing to believe drunkenness as a theory too. But all of them require some fairly large assumptions, and if you knew the geography, the patterns, the culture, it just doesn't add up.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>Although I recognize up front that in writing them, all I do is set myself up for everyone to criticize... but in the interest of discussion...<


Well I would call it more of debating or hashing it out. It is an interesting case.

>>1. A bartender is involved. Everyone goes to the same bars - Coconut Joe's, the Library, Brothers. GBH is slipped into a drink, and the bartender watches at bar time for the victim. <<

Wouldn't GBH be detected during the autopsy? They haven't found evidence of any drug but the alcohol blood levels have come back very high in all of these victims. But your thought about a bartender as a suspect I think is a good one and I would look into that as well. Perhaps someone who selects his victims because of their intoxication and follows them? Profilers however have said that this type of crime would not fit any profile of a serial killer that they are aware of. But I did think of someone who perhaps lost a family member to a drunk driver and is taking revenge. As there was no sign of assault on the body either sexual or otherwise I would opt for a revenge motive.

>>2. A cop is involved. Offers the intoxicated a ride home, or says that he's going to detox. <<

Now, now. We know how you feel about the cops My comments would be that there would have been signs of some type of struggle. And what satisfaction is the cop as a serial killer getting out of this crime? And what cop stays with a dept. for over 20 years? Not many.

>>3. The clothing issue. It's confirmed that Dion's hat was neatly placed on a post near the river. There's rumors about Luke's clothes being folded neatly. It does not fit with falling in - and cannot be summarily dismissed.<<

Someone may have found the hat on the ground, picked it up and put it on the post. I'd follow up on the clothing rumor but again, it's a rumor. I don't recall did the reports say the body was found nude? None of the others were found nude as far as I know. DOes a murderer remove the clothes before shoving someone in the river? How would they accomplish this without a struggle. And you'd want to get out of there as fast as possible afterwards so as not to have someone see you. Not sit around folding clothes. You are in the open here.

>>4. There is another site where a self proclaimed family friend has stated that Luke is on video at a fast food restaurant at 2:34am and is clearly not stumbling, drunk, etc. Also, same friend states that Luke was seen by numerous eyewitnesses after bar time heading towards his home, in the opposite direction of the river. <<

I would certainly interview these people and review the video but blood alcohol readings don't lie. But as yet, this is the strongest evidence that supports your theory, esp. the eyewitnesses that saw him heading in the opposite direction.

>>5. I would re-interview every person in the park that night. There were patrols going on until after 3:30am, and the police just said that Luke must have gone in the river after. So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him? <<

I don't know how many people were out at that time of night but perhaps he was passed out under a bush or something.

>>6. Then the usual suspects - homeless, gang initiation, etc. <<

Yep.

>>7. I've done some reading on drowning as well. Drowning is often the default diagnosis when a victim is found in water. Occasionally trauma to the body is dismissed as coming after death and not before. So "no foul play" does not actually mean no injury was found on the body. Water in the lungs should be tested for diatoms. "Dry" drowning may account for lack of water in lungs, esp. if vic was intoxicated. However, it may also indicate that victim died prior to being placed in the water. (Source: Forensic Examiner Magazine - Fall 06)<<

They can tell whether the water entered the lungs before or after death and also any injuries as well. It's not difficult for them to know if an injury was either prior to death or after. They can even analyze the fluid in the lungs and see if it was from the same body of water in which they were found.

>>I'm willing to believe drunkenness as a theory too. But all of them require some fairly large assumptions, and if you knew the geography, the patterns, the culture, it just doesn't add up.<<

Well I am certainly aware of the culture as I live in WI. This college campus is a huge party orientated campus and well known for it's drinking. Alot of kids choose this campus so they can party. Any assumptions made were made after reading the evidence and lack thereof of anything solid that pointed to foul play.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints with me. It made me think and I hope my ideas made you think too!! It was fun

 

[Ang50]

Thanks for playing - this is interesting to get your comments. Here's some of my followup thoughts...

>Wouldn't GBH be detected during the autopsy?<
According to what I have read, GBH is not detectable after a certain time, or is often not tested for. However, toxicology will be in in 6 weeks, and I think that the family was fairly proactive and would have requested some extra tests.

>>My comments would be that there would have been signs of some type of struggle. And what satisfaction is the cop as a serial killer getting out of this crime? And what cop stays with a dept. for over 20 years? Not many.<<

I expected much more of a tongue lashing from you over this theory. Here's why I think it's somewhat viable - Dion's friends said they were all standing in line for the drunk bus and then when they turned around he was just gone. Similar stories in other drownings. Just gone. IMHO, there's two types of people that could draw someone out of a line quickly and without comment. 1 - a cop and 2 - a woman, esp. one in need. However, a female serial killer is statistically so unlikely...

>>Someone may have found the hat on the ground, picked it up and put it on the post. <
Stuff magazine reported that this was the police explanation. But the jogger that found the hat said they did not move anything - just reported it. Of course, someone could have come along prior to that.

> don't recall did the reports say the body was found nude? None of the others were found nude as far as I know.<
No reports with the clothing, you're right. There was a UW-Eau Claire man whose clothes were also found folded in the nearby park.

>DOes a murderer remove the clothes before shoving someone in the river? How would they accomplish this without a struggle. And you'd want to get out of there as fast as possible afterwards so as not to have someone see you. Not sit around folding clothes. You are in the open here.<

Agreed. If rumor is true, I would be looking at sexual motives. That's all I could think of. If the killer is a woman, this would fit.

>>I would certainly interview these people and review the video but blood alcohol readings don't lie. <

BAC doesn't lie, but what it may mean is that Luke found another place to drink after bar time, or was forced to have more alcohol, or given GHB and more alcohol. If he was not stumbling and slurring on the video, then there's no way he could be .34. Certainly college kids have more tolerance than average people, but he would still be showing severe effects at that BAC.

>>So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him? <<

>I don't know how many people were out at that time of night but perhaps he was passed out under a bush or something.<

Maybe. I guess again that when you blame alcohol so quickly, you deter people from coming forward who might have seen him after bar time. You stifle your leads. There had to have been an interval of time between bar time and the falling in. How long is the question...

>>They can tell whether the water entered the lungs before or after death and also any injuries as well. It's not difficult for them to know if an injury was either prior to death or after. They can even analyze the fluid in the lungs and see if it was from the same body of water in which they were found. <<

If you want, google for "Forensic Examiner" and read the Fall 06 article. When a victim is found in the Mississippi, any body trauma can be attributable to injury from the fall, boats, rocks, etc. The article states it can sometimes be hard to tell if it's a before or after injury. Diatoms are what they use to determine same body of water (there are some bathtub serial killer theories floating around, but this would clear them up) The point of the article is that drowning as a cause of death is not as accurate as say a gunshot as cause. And even if drowning is the cause, the trauma is not certain.

For instance - what injuries would be sustained if someone had held Luke's head under the water? Possibly none, possibly some marks from rocks, sand, etc. Same marks could have been sustained once Luke was in the water.

 

[lostfaith]

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2006/10/31/510673.html


I know some dont agree, but I am glad they are at least looking into this.

 

[cheko1]

Thanks for the update lostfaith.......

Its about time someone goes the extra step it takes to find out what is going on. To many strange deaths of college kids. Makes no sense with as many that they've found.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>Its about time someone goes the extra step it takes to find out what is going on. To many strange deaths of college kids. Makes no sense with as many that they've found.<



They probably have had it and hope that this will finally shut people up about it. Do you think it will work? Good thing we have all that extra taxpayer money sitting around doing nothing just for foolishness like this.

 

[Ang50]

I don't consider extra investigation into the deaths of college age men foolishness. I think it's warranted, especially since it is such a statistical anomaly.

I'm certain happier to contribute my tax dollars for the FBI to profile these cases, then say to continue to pay the salaries of fired Milwaukee police officers after they'd been convicted of raping women or covering up their own crimes ala Frank Jude.

The article's spin is very interesting, too. The official story looks like the police spontaneously asked for the review, which I also find hard to believe considering Chief Kondracki's dismissive attitude. However, I think the Homan's connections and U.S. Marshal Kruiziki, plus further Waukesha County outcry got the ball moving.

 

[cappuccina]

...there is a lot of water around LaCrosse, as people have already said...combine this with hilly terrain, tons and tons of bars, and some still very isolated areas, and you have the potential for drowning cases, especially among college students, for whom this is the first time on their own....I went to the University of WI in Madison, and we also had drownings in Lake Mendota....Not only were some kids drunk, some were NOT drunk, but DID NOT KNOW HOW TO SWIM, or became disorented after deciding to swim off of a rowboat at night. That's why I don't think there is any "mystery" here...

However, I do think that UW-LAX should put out bulletins to students reminding them of the dangers of water, offering more visible swimmer's/boater's safety classes....That's what UW did after a couple of drownings happened close together....

And, for God's sake, parents, make sure your kids know how to swim....Not just the strokes, but lifesaving things too, like learning the "survival float", etc. Ideally, kids should know how to swim (in a rudimentary way) by Kindergarten, but if your kid doesn;t know how to swim, and about water safety by high school, then do something about it! There was a real problem at UW-Madison with kids who had NEVER been around any water, or who had only experienced pools. One kid died after he panicked and sunk because he got caught in some lake weeds, which he could have easily gotten out of if he had kept a level head...Obviously alcohol does not help this problem...

Sorry, but I just don't think there's a mystery here...

 

[CyberLaw]

How about also:

The Bars have very cheap booze and cater to college kids. To binge drink, to be very drunk on little money.

When there is demand there is supply. The kids are the demand and the bars are the supply. Awareness is the key, kids often do not appreciate that their risky behavior is a) risky b) dangerous and c) can end their lives.

When a kid has a BAL of above .08 or more, no amount of "swimming lessons" are going to help, as they would be overcome with a)booze and b) the temperature of the water which can over come even a sober person quickly.

For analysis you would have to compare the number of kids over the years that have attended the college, who go out and binge drink and compare that to the number of kids of have died due to "falling" in the lake.

You just cannot say 9 men have died...you have to say 9 men out of 250,000 students who have attended this college since 1986. For example........

I don't see a mystery here, irresponsible behavior, bravado of youth, jock and macho college culture, binge drinking, away from home, no parental restriction or Mommy and Daddy seeing you come home drunk and misadventure.

All of those factors add up to a situation that could easily lead to the death of a young person.

Booze is a known to be a problem in a lot of Colleges, it is pervasive, and often leads to death without drowning.

Education is the key.....and preventative measure to "have lights in the park or near the water that will "warn" a person when they are close to the water, then the lights may, startle them and they can see how close they are to the water. Falling in the water is not going to "suddenly" sober a person up, they are still drunk, but in a position that they cannot help themselves.

As long as cheap booze is available, binge drinking is not "frowned" upon, there is still going to be a problem.

Heck I almost walked into a lake and I was not even drinking. I just could not see where the land ended and the water started.

It is not like a person has better judgement and co-ordination when they are drunk

 

[eve]

I am reading this with interest partially because I have a son at UW - Madison (called the number "one" party school in the nation last year). The kids do their share of drinking, that's for sure, but most are quite aware of safety issues, at least the kids I talk with, when I visit. For instance, my son and his housemates have SOP check-in with each other each night, etc., and really do not walk alone at night, esp. when partying. They do know predators are out there, whether they are boys or girls.

I am glad to say my own kids are water-savvy and being able to swim is very important for anyone. Still, if a kid is dead drunk...who knows what can happen? Lakes and rivers are hazardous and kids don't always use common sense or prepare for problems. A few years ago a local kid drowned retrieving a fishing lure - he got tangled up in the weeds and the more he struggled the worse it got. When my kids fish they always keep a leatherman tool on their belts to cut weeds if necessary and they know not to bother with lost lures - not worth it.

It occurs to me that many campuses with which I am familiar are virtually built around water, or along rivers. I went to the Univ. of Iowa - the river divides the campus. The Univ. of Mn. is along the Mississippi, St. Cloud State Univ. is also (there was a drowning last year - a student who had been bar-hopping ended up being found drowned in the river).

Drinking and water have never been a good combination, add foul play and it's even worse.

If there are clues that make these deaths stand out from the usual accidents, I hope they follow up.

Eve

 

[Sherlockmom]

>I'm certain happier to contribute my tax dollars for the FBI to profile these cases, then say to continue to pay the salaries of fired Milwaukee police officers after they'd been convicted of raping women or covering up their own crimes ala Frank Jude.<


Then contribute your own money and stop supporting actions that steal it out of my pocket. I'm NOT happy to contribute to this type of nonsense any more than I'm happy to contribute to pay salaries of fired police officers or teachers who have molested their students or politicians who abuse their office etc. And as an aside, what does fired Milw. police officers have to do with this case? We're talking about spending tax payer money to fund an FBI lookie look on a case that has no evidence to provide to them that a crime has been committed. This is not a wise use of taxpayer dollars.

These cases have been looked over again and again by the local LE and NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE pointing to a crime has been unearthed. While the statistics of it may be interesting I do not find them surprising considering that the river there is particularly dangerous and the amount of binge drinking that goes on there. I'm surprised more of them don't drown.

 

[CyberLaw]

Apparently drinking for most inhabitants in this city is the norm, not the exception.

Other people who have had "excessive" levels of booze in their systems have been found in the water also.

A lot of students "drink" to excess before they go to the bars, cheaper that way. I did a search of BAL for a man who is 180 lbs.

Well if he did drink say for example: I5 drinks in say two hours his BAL would still be .12. That is far above legally drunk. Add to that "binge" drinking at a bar for a few or a couple of hours and the BAL rises quite quickly.

One man that they did pull out of the lake had a BAL of .34 but "apparently" he was not staggering or appearing drunk. I find that hard to believe.

Another person had a BAL of .27.

Now if stone cold sober students were being pulled from the lake, I would question why. But we all know that booxze impairs the the minds ability to appreciate the consequences of your action.

Apparently Ice Cream places want to sell booze, there is a statute of a beer person, students are welcomed with free drinks. The "Golden Beer Keg" at Octoberfest.

So there has to be a cultural shift, I guess people would rather believe a "serial killer" is on the loose then admit that their past time of drinking is the problem and that it will continue to be a problem.

Booze is a "contributing" factor is all of the deaths, that is the pattern.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>So there has to be a cultural shift, I guess people would rather believe a "serial killer" is on the loose then admit that their past time of drinking is the problem and that it will continue to be a problem.<


I agree with you. Couple that with a young person's lack of the reality that life is short and they are not invincible and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think another reason is that the families of these young men are having a difficult time coming to terms with the fact that the loss of life here was for a completely stupid and preventable reason. I feel for them. I really do and I think it is a shame that an evening of youthful stupidity resulted in death for these people but I don't think that the taxpayers should have to foot the bill for a pointless FBI examination of the case so that the bereaved families can delay facing the truth a little while longer. If there was any evidence to convince me that there was good reason for further investigation I would be all for it but I just do not see it anywhere. And this does happen on other campuses in the country. It's not just happening here.

I also do not believe that attacking the local LE because they haven't been able to find a scapegoat to hang for these accidents is going to solve anything either. Instead of attacking the real reason for these accidents people are looking to point the finger at anyone instead of looking in the mirror.

Alot of money is made off of the selling of alcohol to college kids in this town. But for some reason the tavern owners are not receiving quite the disdain that the evil police are.

Bartenders have the legal right and the moral responsibility to deny service to anyone that they think has had too much to drink.

And people have to learn that the responsibility for stupid behavior belongs with the person who is being stupid. Spending money on a wild goose chase so that some people can feel like something is being done isn't going to save any future lives. Parents need to talk to their kids seriously before they go away to school. It seems to be too much freedom for some of these kids to handle.