Agatha_C,
Thanks for that.
I'll look out for that here in the UK or the usual places online!
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Are the Ramseys involved or not?
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Agatha_C,
Thanks for that.
I'll look out for that here in the UK or the usual places online!
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iluvmua,
You should read up on the case. There is no evidence of any intruder. But plenty linking the parents to the wine-cellar. This does not prove they did it, but to date they have never linked to anyone else outside of the Ramsey household.
Their own son contradicts aspects of their version of events, its obvious a Ramsey killed JonBenet, lea just cannot prove which one!
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Chiquita71
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Still thinking about this case. I have always thought the Ramseys were involved with the death and attempted cover up of the death of Jonbenet. That was my vote. As time goes by it becomes more and more clear to me how "involved" John and Patsy Ramsey were. Right now it seems to me that JonBenet was being molested by John and even if Patsy didn't "know" about it she knew. (I believe she was molested in her childhood also) John saying JonBenet was asleep when they got home and Burke saying she was awake...Burke was the child and probably telling the truth plus the pineapple equals JonBenet was awake when they got home. My theory is John was molesting JonBenet that night, and I do feel the death was accidental but they knew they could not take her to the hospital. I am thinking maybe Patsy did walk in on the event and lashed out, or lashed out later(?) I have read some say it was the flashlight that caused the head wound and that makes me think that is why they left it out to be seen and found. Like the pineapple, they left some things the way they (were)/happened as part of the plan. As in the police saying, "we found the murder weapon the intruder used" that the other things they did so pointed away from them they could leave actual items from the crime to be found.
I have thoughts that go on from there but that is where this new information comes in, I had been thinking the above...
I was reading a website that brought up the fact that the ransom note had the phrase about "getting rest." It has been said many times on many websites, WS included that it is hinky that kidnapper/terrorists would be concerned with the Ramsey's getting enough rest. But, what this site was saying was that it "proves" the Ramseys were up that night.
If the kidnappers/terrorists/intruder were in the Ramsey's home that night they would have KNOWN they were sleeping. They would not have told them to get rest. That part was put in by John and Patsy because they knew they had been up all night. And, that makes a lot of sense to me.
My alternative theory right now re: the Ramseys being involved: Burke and JonBenet were playing in his room and he hit her on the head with the flashlight. John(or other family members)had been molesting JonBenet and so they could not take her to the hospital.
So basically, she was killed by accident and was not saved because of the incest in the family. I welcome any information in response as it helps me see where I do not have something right. If you know what I mean. If it seems I have gotten most of my theories from others, you are correct. :blushing:
Big flaw I don't mind being schooled on: why then the garrot(sp?), why the staging of the neck wound...oh, wait...the (accidental) blow did not kill her so they finished the job? That seems horrible but if they were on a time line...the plane is leaving in the morning...I don't know about that one.
:moo:
I have thoughts that go on from there but that is where this new information comes in, I had been thinking the above...
I was reading a website that brought up the fact that the ransom note had the phrase about "getting rest." It has been said many times on many websites, WS included that it is hinky that kidnapper/terrorists would be concerned with the Ramsey's getting enough rest. But, what this site was saying was that it "proves" the Ramseys were up that night.
If the kidnappers/terrorists/intruder were in the Ramsey's home that night they would have KNOWN they were sleeping. They would not have told them to get rest. That part was put in by John and Patsy because they knew they had been up all night. And, that makes a lot of sense to me.
My alternative theory right now re: the Ramseys being involved: Burke and JonBenet were playing in his room and he hit her on the head with the flashlight. John(or other family members)had been molesting JonBenet and so they could not take her to the hospital.
So basically, she was killed by accident and was not saved because of the incest in the family. I welcome any information in response as it helps me see where I do not have something right. If you know what I mean. If it seems I have gotten most of my theories from others, you are correct. :blushing:
Big flaw I don't mind being schooled on: why then the garrot(sp?), why the staging of the neck wound...oh, wait...the (accidental) blow did not kill her so they finished the job? That seems horrible but if they were on a time line...the plane is leaving in the morning...I don't know about that one.
:moo:
Chiquita71,
Killing JonBenet because she had been molested, and if they did not want her awake to tell anyone makes the case a sexually motivated homicide!
IMO the garrote is simply staging it masks whatever else took place, just as her longjohns mask any prior molestation. The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, regardless of who did it, intruder or Ramsey.
Why would a kidnapper kill his victim, abandon her in the owners house, yet author a ransom note? Even the kidnapper would only do this to avoid the victim naming him?
It is difficult to understand, assuming PDI, why Patsy did not rush JonBenet right to hospital, if there was some kind of accident. She did once before when Burke accidentally whacked JonBenet with a golf-club.
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This time was VERY different. This time, she fell unconscious immediately, possibly having seizures or lapsing into a coma. Shock may have occurred with a drop in body temperature and respiration- to an untrained person, she may have appeared dead. There was NO visible indication she had even been hit- just a crumpled little girl, unconscious on the floor, who had been molested with enough force to make her bleed, and screamed loud enough to be heard across the street.
Calling 911- what would they say? How would explain that she was comatose? Explain what let to that type of injury? And the vaginal injury? There is simply NO innocent explanation for how something caused bruising, bleeding in the vagina of a child. There was NO way they could call 911 that night. Not without the hospital calling police when JB was examined/pronounced dead.
When BR hit her with the golf club, she wasn't knocked out, she likely just bled. Stitches were needed, that's all.
DeeDee249,
Absolutely, very different. She was deliberately asphyxiated, then dumped into the wine-cellar. Silence assured, problem solved.
Thats described as a sexually motivated homicide!
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DIRK SCHILLER
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why not call 911 and say the intruder came in, raped and killed her , they just had to clean up a bit in case of finger prints,DNA, etc,,,,there was no need of ramson note, etc,,,etc,,,????
I think that's a really good question. The problem is where is the evidence of an intruder? We know he didn't come in (or go out) the basement window because the grate was in place when police inspected, and the spider web was undisturbed. We know some splinters on another door had been there for months. So the intruder rapist story starts to fall apart - though, going with the spirit of your question, why not just go downstairs and open a door slightly, giving a plausible explanation of how the intruder got in the house?
In retrospect, it might have been better to do as you suggest. But put yourself in the place of the killers, you know there is no evidence of an intruder, so you have to manufacture "evidence" of an intruder. You feel as if you've done something to lead the police astray, whereas just calling 911 and blaming it on an intruder makes you feel more vulnerable.
There is also the possibility that some of the things done that night were done to obscure evidence that would lead back to an inside job. That is - if they just called and blamed it on an intruder w/o the staging/re-staging, there might have been evidence of who really did it.
It's interesting to note the role of the "intruder DNA" here. The DNA that did not come from a Ramsey. If it's more than accidental transfer of DNA, then we must ask yourselves why the intruder redressed JBR? Why take the time? Why have any concern for how she is found? Why wrap her in a blanky and put her in the WC ? If they had done as you suggest, and just called 911 and blamed it on an intruder they might have a stronger case today. The transfer DNA would seem stronger if for example JBR were found dead in her bed. As it is, one must explain why the "intruder" did anything beyond wiping down the body -which would have been for the purpose of removing forensic evidence- and then getting out of Dodge.
DIRK SCHILLER,
They probably went with something like this initially. Hey, Patsy could even contaminate the crime-scene by finding JonBenet and attempting to shake her awake?
The R's were not criminal masterminds, they forgot some critical stuff, staging JonBenet, but not the crime-scene location is a classic mistake. They wanted it to read like a fairy-tale, e.g. we all went to bed, fell asleep, next thing is: JonBenet had vanished! They wanted to write themselves out of the script, minimize any point of contact, and give themselves some breathing room to fly out of Boulder.
That JonBenet was found wearing size-12 underwear is important, since we can assume she had been wearing Bloomingdales size-6, White etc, which were substituted for the size-12's.
Now why bother doing this, if you are going to claim a nasty pedophile applied EA, abused, and asphyxiated JonBenet, why not just leave the size-6 underwear in place? JonBenet wet the bed, size-6's urine soaked, no problem, just blame her death and the fear factor. So there must have been some forensic traces on the size-6 underwear, and probably on JonBenet's body, hence the wipe down, and cleaning with skin cleanser. I'll bet everyone can imagine precisely what the forensic traces might be?
So the cause of JonBenet's death was staged, e.g. the paintbrush-handle/garrote, whilst other injuries were deliberately hidden from view, so that JonBenet could conform to the parents version of events.
So allowing JonBenet to be found immediately would have likely resulted in the parents and Burke's arrest with the house cordoned off, and no opportunity to hide or remove forensic evidence via relatives!
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eileenhawkeye
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...And another reason I think it might not have been a coincidence that the theory reminded me so much of RDI is there was a reference to JonBenet's case during the episode that aired a week earlier.
eileenhawkeye,
I know a famous, best selling author in the crime genre and he reads the local news etc, and he cuts out all the crime stories, visits trials that interest him. Then when he is writing a book he will factor in some of these previous crimes, as a permutation, to suit whatever theme is in his book.
I guess Criminal Minds and all the others must employ something similar. I know they have an unpublished rule-book about stuff they cannot include in stories, e.g. how to commit the perfect murder etc.
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http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2012/apr/22/forensic-pathologist-revisits-high-profile-cases/
Sunday, April 22, 2012
Forensic pathologist revisits high-profile cases
"Among the guilty he believes are still walking free? Casey Anthony and John Ramsey, for starters."
"In Ramsey's case, Wecht said he thinks the 6-year-old's death was accidental but still at the hands of her father.
There was evidence of ongoing sexual abuse, he said. And he doubts the story that an intruder got into their home unnoticed, wrote a ransom note and abused and killed the girl, hiding her in a secret room that police didn't notice, Wecht said. "
Sunday, April 22, 2012
Forensic pathologist revisits high-profile cases
"Among the guilty he believes are still walking free? Casey Anthony and John Ramsey, for starters."
"In Ramsey's case, Wecht said he thinks the 6-year-old's death was accidental but still at the hands of her father.
There was evidence of ongoing sexual abuse, he said. And he doubts the story that an intruder got into their home unnoticed, wrote a ransom note and abused and killed the girl, hiding her in a secret room that police didn't notice, Wecht said. "
Tadpole12,
What a foolish man, has he not read his bible? Minority opinions are not statistically relevant according to JR's business nous.
So we now have two experts, e.g. Wecht and Meyers, who have had access to the crime-scene evidence stating that there was sexual abuse.
How does that fit in with a PDI based on punishment, or bedwetting?
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Well, one scenario: that night, JR was molesting JB either in JB's bedroom or in another area of the house. When Patsy couldn't sleep that night and woke up to find her husband not in bed, she suspected what she had been starting to know more consciously, and grabbed a flashlight to "find" them. When she did the image was more than she could handle or be prepared for, and she snapped and knocked JB over the head with it (we know she was impulsive based on, to give just one example, her bizarre calling-in to the Larry King show post Diana's death).
I've always felt like the flashlight, having been wiped down, is the most likely assault tool in the house. And it makes sense that Patsy could snap after catching her husband and daughter in the act.
sandover,
Many PDI like this theory, and who knows it could be correct, but why wipe the flashlight clean, then leave it in plain sight for the police to inspect, why not dump it deep in a drawer somewhere?
Why should Patsy then assist in a coverup, why not dial 911, blame the abuser and claim involuntary homicide or its equivalent?
Most juries would sympathise with Patsy, in these circumstances, so I reckon there was more going on?
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I suspect Patsy didn't want to loose her gravy train and "good name."
This is one scenario I just don't see. Not the part about JR molesting his daughter but the part about Patsy bashing JB instead of her husband. I can't see this at all. While some feel that it explains why neither parent turned on the other (because they each had something they were guilty of), I don't see Patsy as having gone to bed at all that night and I don't see JR molesting JB while his wife was up puttering around getting ready for their trip.
Noodles
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I agree. IIRC, the police never were able to ask John if at some point he woke up and Patsy was not in the bed. Well, this and a zillion more questions. I think the truth is that JR knows Patsy was not in bed all night and thats why the police were not permitted to ask that. I still go back to the Burke interview where he said lights were being turned off and on and the house creaked all night.
And of course Patsy in the same clothes. I just cant see a woman like Patsy doing her hair and makeup that morning (IIRC) then putting on clothes from the night before. It did occur to me though that with all the packing going on for the various trips, it is possible she did. So I dunno about that. But given all I know about her, I would think she knew to leave something out to wear the day they left for the trip.
What about the possibility that JR was not abusing JB that NIGHT but that night Patsy flipped out and for whatever reason hit JB over the head (maybe shortly after the pineapple snack).
Let's say JR was in bed... at what point do you think PR engaged JR in the cover up?
IS IT AT ALL POSSIBLE that PR staged everything herself and "played dumb" and she and JR never discussed this -- that he "figured it out" but "played along" as it were...?
This seems UNLIKELY but is there anything that makes it IMPOSSIBLE?
I have always wondered if perhaps JR really did take a melatonin, sleep through the night, and only start to sense something strange was going on when he read that ransom note...
Noodles
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Yes, I am of the opinion JR went to bed but Patsy didnt, staying up to pack or whatever. Burke said JB walked up the steps followed by P. Other accounts have J carrying her up the steps and even reading to her. Maybe JB got herself into bed, John was in bed, and Patsy stayed up to pack. I think JB had an accident later on and for multiple reasons, Patsy just lost it.
I will have to go back and re-read the Thomas book, I cant remember if Burke said he heard his dad up or not. Burke said he heard his mom saying OH MY GOSH twice and I think he said John turned off a light. He also said he heard John tell Patsy to call the police. So at some point, after JB got up with her accident, John woke up on his own or Patsy woke him. For me that better explains his 90-minute absence the morning of the 911 call. He had more time (since it was very early morning) to think about who to call and whatnot. I think Patsy had it in her to do the staging all by herself, but I think John helped. JMO of course.
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