GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #4

[pudd]

Thank you for your thoughtful post GutFeeling! You have put a smile upon my face :tyou:

Yes, you look after yourself, Tingles. I can't help but want to say "you shouldn't be reading about this in your condition" but just ignore me.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-long-arm-of-modern-technology-20120929-26skq.html

Sometime after the moment Ms Meagher was captured on CCTV speaking to her alleged killer, police will allege he removed the SIM card from her phone, sources told The Sunday Age yesterday.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...-technology-20120929-26skq.html#ixzz27u9tgfJi

This is in keeping with what we observed of his behaviour towards Jill at that time and Jill's behaviour in response to threat. He may have ordered her to turn her phone off (earlier post), take her SIM out or he took it out. She appears to hang on to that phone in front of her for dear life. We observe that he says something to her (while standing out of the light on the left); she looks up at him quickly, then looks back down (as if following orders) at her phone and reluctantly moves her fingers. The threat he posed to her seems clear in that video. Predators like to disable their victim and render them helpless. My opinion only, not fact.

 

[cluciano63]

Everyone has the right to walk alone; that is part of the problem, as that includes sexual predators, sociopaths, etc.. We have to weigh our rights against our safety sometimes. If society is not keeping these people off the streets, we can protest, etc. but in the meantime, we still need to try to stay safe.

 

[Curiousasacat]

I agree with you, very well written Curiousasacat . But I do honestly believe that when she said "I'm worried I'm worried" was referring to the fact that she felt as though she was in danger, but didn't want to say anything to her brother as she may have felt too scared. That's JMO of course as there was speculation that it was in regards to her father, which in all respect could have been. I don't think her brother actually did clarify that is what she said it in reference to. But that's just what I felt. And also another thing, the male voice/s he said he heard in the background?

That's nice, thanks Tingles, I hope you have your feet up.

Yeah I think you're right re I'm worried. I just don't think she would have said it outright for fear of worrying him. No, her brother never did clarify as far as I know.
I believe the male voices were just foot traffic going by.
Of course none of this could be correct as I am just guessing.

 

[Firesnake]

“We were asleep. Michael just went, ‘Jillian, I don’t want to wake dad up.’ She just went, ‘I’m worried, I’m worried’.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...1/Missing-Jill-made-desperate-phone-call.html

 

[Curiousasacat]

I suspect that a lot of that is right, but a couple of points:

She may have been grabbed as she walked past the end of the little lane in Hope St, screamed once, then was king-hit and rendered unconscious. That would have given the perp the ease to carry her to his car further down the laneway. It could also have gone wrong in that the king-hit may have actually killed her - she was quite small and he is quite muscular. Perhaps the fact that she was already dead when carried to the car and then whatever happened was what shocked the reporters..?

Also, in her phone call to her brother, wasn't it quoted somewhere fairly early in these threads and in the MSM that she actually said "I'm worried" but did not elaborate on that? And then when the brother went downstairs to call her back - no reply....

Interesting that it is alleged this morning that the perp removed the SIM card from the phone quite early in the piece, yet the phone kept ringing out before going to voicemail when Tom was trying to call her. It only stopped doing that and started going straight to voicemail around 8am. I wouldn't have thought that a phone with its SIM removed (possibly removed when it rang the first time) would show up on the network and sound to the caller that it was ringing. I would have thought it would have given the "Number not connected or out of range" message and then gone to voicemail.

Something not quite fitting together there...

I drove home very late last night, about 12:30-ish. Went through the Valley - and there were girls walking around there in ones and twos, some of them were so intoxicated that they could hardly stand up, and I swear that some of them were barely (in both meanings of the word) into their teens. What were their parents thinking? Did they know where they were? One girl in particular was staggering along down a dark side street behind the big multi-story car park, with nobody else in sight. I drove through there to get onto Ann St, and one part of me said I should stop and see if she was OK, the other part said that if I stopped I would probably (a) get an ear-bashing from the girl, and (b) be acting suspiciously. I didn't stop, but I did slow down until I was sure she was almost out of the end of the street into the better-lit area of Ann St. She didn't even notice I was there - it could have been anybody. She obviously doesn't read the news or hasn't heard about the Jill Meagher case. It just seemed like another disaster waiting to happen. And I reckon she would have been 17 or 18 only. I shook my head in disbelief as I drove on.

I hope that the worst she has this morning is a hangover!

Good points there doc....I also think if it wasn't Hope street then his car was in little Breese St?? Maybe??

I have friends who live in the Valley and yes it's a regular occurence to walk there at night these days. I have never felt comfortable walking around there at night and to get to one of my friends place includes a walk behind the FV train station.But I and many others do,for some reason we are slightly lax in our sensible thoughts at time.The last time I did that I was in a very similar situation to Jill's. You(as a woman) just think they are sleazy men who have a few gross things to say and ignore them. Never would you imagine you would be murdered by one of these guys. Times will change now I believe.

 

[DrWatson]

Everyone has the right to walk alone; that is part of the problem, as that includes sexual predators, sociopaths, etc.. We have to weigh our rights against our safety sometimes. If society is not keeping these people off the streets, we can protest, etc. but in the meantime, we still need to try to stay safe.

I absolutely agree with you. But as you say, the predators ARE out there, and I see no point in putting oneself at risk unnecessarily.

I'm a big bloke, well over 6', and can look after myself very well. Army training in one's younger days is good for some things... Yet there are places I wouldn't go, streets I would hesitate to walk down on my own. And there is good reason that in a lot of those places the police go in pairs or groups. Even overseas, in some parts of LA for example - there are no-go areas. And it's all very well to stand up and say that we SHOULD be able to go there - but the fact is that if you DO, you are highly likely to get mugged at best, or killed.

The story in the MSM this morning about the nurse being accosted as she walked along that pathway beside the railway line in Brunswick is a classic example. I gather from the story that it is an unlit pathway running behind the Sydney Rd buildings. Why the heck would you walk down there at night? Or alternatively, why isn't the pathway lit up and covered by CCTV so that people CAN walk along there at night?

Yes, I know people get accosted in broad daylight too - we had an infamous cycle-path rapist here in Brisbane just a couple of years ago who used to grab and rape young females while they were out jogging. He was caught and I believe is still in jail. No doubt, some parole board will, however, let him out at some stage (especially if he says all the right things) and he is highly likely to be at it again!

But night time, and in dark areas, the risk is highest. So why put yourself at risk in the first place?

Yes - everyone SHOULD be able to go wherever they like, but as I've said before (and copped the criticism for saying it) the reality is that we can't.

Unfortunately, it takes cases like that of poor Jill Meagher to highlight this. And even then, it won't stop it happening, especially after seeing those girls last night as per my post above!

 

[catswhiskers]

I could be wrong, but I think when you purchase a new phone the device itself is registered and can be tracked regardless of whether or not there is a sim card in it? That's why in many cases our phones are locked into a network for a certain period and even putting a different sim card in won't enable it until it is unlocked. Probably talking out of my hat...
I think the words "Sometime after the moment Ms Meagher was captured on CCTV speaking to her alleged killer, police will allege he removed the SIM card from her phone, sources told The Sunday Age yesterday." make that act sound much sooner than it may have actually been - poor wording perhaps. It could have been any time after that moment - at least enough for the phone company to help out as they did. Having said that I think the phone would have been one of the first things to be taken away from Jill - maybe even kept thinking it would be untraceable without it's sim card??

 

[cluciano63]

I absolutely agree with you. But as you say, the predators ARE out there, and I see no point in putting oneself at risk unnecessarily.

I'm a big bloke, well over 6', and can look after myself very well. Army training in one's younger days is good for some things... Yet there are places I wouldn't go, streets I would hesitate to walk down on my own. And there is good reason that in a lot of those places the police go in pairs or groups. Even overseas, in some parts of LA for example - there are no-go areas. And it's all very well to stand up and say that we SHOULD be able to go there - but the fact is that if you DO, you are highly likely to get mugged at best, or killed.

The story in the MSM this morning about the nurse being accosted as she walked along that pathway beside the railway line in Brunswick is a classic example. I gather from the story that it is an unlit pathway running behind the Sydney Rd buildings. Why the heck would you walk down there at night? Or alternatively, why isn't the pathway lit up and covered by CCTV so that people CAN walk along there at night?

Yes, I know people get accosted in broad daylight too - we had an infamous cycle-path rapist here in Brisbane just a couple of years ago who used to grab and rape young females while they were out jogging. He was caught and I believe is still in jail. No doubt, some parole board will, however, let him out at some stage (especially if he says all the right things) and he is highly likely to be at it again!

But night time, and in dark areas, the risk is highest. So why put yourself at risk in the first place?

Yes - everyone SHOULD be able to go wherever they like, but as I've said before (and copped the criticism for saying it) the reality is that we can't.

Unfortunately, it takes cases like that of poor Jill Meagher to highlight this. And even then, it won't stop it happening, especially after seeing those girls last night as per my post above!

Most of the cases in the USA where a woman is assaulted and/or murdered, she was alone and often at night. Those two factors are what the predators seem to look for.

I live in a neighborhood with just homes and lots of elderly retired folks and some families with little kids, but I still would not take a walk after dark. Society is so mobile these days, bad guys travel around and seek out victims everywhere.

Jill's death is horribly shocking and should never have happened. And sometimes people, including women, have no choice but to be out and about alone at night, i.e. walking from a bus, to and from work, whatever. There will always be a risk. But I don't see the point of walking alone at night if you don't have to, just because it is your right; sure it is, but it is not a safe thing to do.

Any fighting back needs to be against the system that is letting felons out of prison time and again, and maybe for added police officers at bus stops, shopping malls, etc. places where people may have to travel on foot alone. Even new laws don't always help, as many would-be killers are looking for their first victim and/or have not been caught yet.

I guess most of us who have been at WS for a while are super-paranoid, so I realize Jill's case must come as a life-changing shock to members who only just joined and maybe are not as accustomed to thinking about the evil in the world. It is a very sad way to have to be forced to think about such things.

 

[Keentoknow]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/why-ill-never-walk-home-alone-again/story-e6freon6-1226484126875

My senses start to tingle, and my step quickens even more. I'm now about the same distance from home that Jill Meagher had to walk.

My head swivels to locate each new sound, and I glare into bushes and shadows my eyes can't penetrate.

The crisp night air chills my skin, flowing freely now I'm past the buildings of the Valley.

All the same, I don't feel terribly unsafe. But then a car passes by, driving slowly with no passengers. Slowing even further. Now I'm really afraid.

If I have to be honest, I feel more scared when I see one middle-aged man driving along my street in the early hours of the morning than if I see a car full of people my age, going home, just like me. I've run before, when animal instinct told me I was unsafe.

I'm relieved when I reach my doorstep, and hastily turn the key in the lock to fall inside and collapse into bed.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I suspect that a lot of that is right, but a couple of points:

She may have been grabbed as she walked past the end of the little lane in Hope St, screamed once, then was king-hit and rendered unconscious. That would have given the perp the ease to carry her to his car further down the laneway. It could also have gone wrong in that the king-hit may have actually killed her - she was quite small and he is quite muscular. Perhaps the fact that she was already dead when carried to the car and then whatever happened was what shocked the reporters..?

Also, in her phone call to her brother, wasn't it quoted somewhere fairly early in these threads and in the MSM that she actually said "I'm worried" but did not elaborate on that? And then when the brother went downstairs to call her back - no reply....

Interesting that it is alleged this morning that the perp removed the SIM card from the phone quite early in the piece, yet the phone kept ringing out before going to voicemail when Tom was trying to call her. It only stopped doing that and started going straight to voicemail around 8am. I wouldn't have thought that a phone with its SIM removed (possibly removed when it rang the first time) would show up on the network and sound to the caller that it was ringing. I would have thought it would have given the "Number not connected or out of range" message and then gone to voicemail.

Something not quite fitting together there...

I drove home very late last night, about 12:30-ish. Went through the Valley - and there were girls walking around there in ones and twos, some of them were so intoxicated that they could hardly stand up, and I swear that some of them were barely (in both meanings of the word) into their teens. What were their parents thinking? Did they know where they were? One girl in particular was staggering along down a dark side street behind the big multi-story car park, with nobody else in sight. I drove through there to get onto Ann St, and one part of me said I should stop and see if she was OK, the other part said that if I stopped I would probably (a) get an ear-bashing from the girl, and (b) be acting suspiciously. I didn't stop, but I did slow down until I was sure she was almost out of the end of the street into the better-lit area of Ann St. She didn't even notice I was there - it could have been anybody. She obviously doesn't read the news or hasn't heard about the Jill Meagher case. It just seemed like another disaster waiting to happen. And I reckon she would have been 17 or 18 only. I shook my head in disbelief as I drove on.

I hope that the worst she has this morning is a hangover!

Doc, I couldn't agree more with what you say. Have seen the same myself - young girls extremely drunk staggering home late at night, and felt sick. Don't their parents have a clue? You can't put an old head on young shoulders so somebody with an 'old head' needs to look out for you so you will get to be old yourself. It's called tough love. My sons hated it back then but thank me now.

Curious about the SIM card, not up on tech stuff that much but does a SIM work if it isn't in a device? Landline number will still ring to a caller even if no phone plugged in at destination end but that is different. Maybe once the sim is connected to a service provider it is the same? Can't be stuffed taking my sim out to test it

 

[FruitTingles]

In this article it says that the police will not reveal details of how Jill was killed. In which I think we all assumed anyway. It also states how AB is separated from the rest of the prisoners, as they believed he would be attacked.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...dered-Jills-family-gather-to-say-goodbye.html

 

[LegallyBrunette]

“We were asleep. Michael just went, ‘Jillian, I don’t want to wake dad up.’ She just went, ‘I’m worried, I’m worried’.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...1/Missing-Jill-made-desperate-phone-call.html

Far out! That's what I have thought from first. Her dad had had the stroke 3 weeks prior, you don't ring on the way home from night out at the time of the morning to check on his welfare. It was a way of seeking help. IMHO

 

[DrWatson]

I could be wrong, but I think when you purchase a new phone the device itself is registered and can be tracked regardless of whether or not there is a sim card in it? That's why in many cases our phones are locked into a network for a certain period and even putting a different sim card in won't enable it until it is unlocked. Probably talking out of my hat...

Actually - you make an excellent point! And I think you're quite right. That's why a phone, even without a SIM card, can still make emergency calls (I think the number is 112 from a mobile in Australia). When my phone is on - I just checked it - with the SIM card out, up the top where it usually says 3G, it just says "SOS only".

I think the only way the phone can't be tracked is if it is switched OFF. And preferably with the battery removed. It is then just an inert piece of hardware with no reception or transmission.

So if the perp in this case removed the SIM, but left the phone on, it could still have been traced. On the other hand, many phones require the battery to be removed in order to get at the SIM, which would have turned it off. Maybe Jill's was an iPhone or similar, where the SIM is inserted via a little side slot?

Very good point!

 

[marlywings]

Yes, I know people get accosted in broad daylight too - we had an infamous cycle-path rapist here in Brisbane just a couple of years ago who used to grab and rape young females while they were out jogging. He was caught and I believe is still in jail. No doubt, some parole board will, however, let him out at some stage (especially if he says all the right things) and he is highly likely to be at it again!

Yes a lot of Bris residents would remember the above case. Just as a matter of interest, our now very well known Inspector Ainsworth worked on that case with the great result of apprehending the guy...& yes the perp is still in prison.

 

[Maigret]

Actually - you make an excellent point! And I think you're quite right. That's why a phone, even without a SIM card, can still make emergency calls (I think the number is 112 from a mobile in Australia). When my phone is on - I just checked it - with the SIM card out, up the top where it usually says 3G, it just says "SOS only".

I think the only way the phone can't be tracked is if it is switched OFF. And preferably with the battery removed. It is then just an inert piece of hardware with no reception or transmission.

So if the perp in this case removed the SIM, but left the phone on, it could still have been traced. On the other hand, many phones require the battery to be removed in order to get at the SIM, which would have turned it off. Maybe Jill's was an iPhone or similar, where the SIM is inserted via a little side slot?

Very good point!

I'm sure she would have had an iPhone or similar

 

[DrWatson]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/why-ill-never-walk-home-alone-again/story-e6freon6-1226484126875

My senses start to tingle, and my step quickens even more. I'm now about the same distance from home that Jill Meagher had to walk.

My head swivels to locate each new sound, and I glare into bushes and shadows my eyes can't penetrate.

The crisp night air chills my skin, flowing freely now I'm past the buildings of the Valley.

All the same, I don't feel terribly unsafe. But then a car passes by, driving slowly with no passengers. Slowing even further. Now I'm really afraid.

If I have to be honest, I feel more scared when I see one middle-aged man driving along my street in the early hours of the morning than if I see a car full of people my age, going home, just like me. I've run before, when animal instinct told me I was unsafe.

I'm relieved when I reach my doorstep, and hastily turn the key in the lock to fall inside and collapse into bed.

Excellent link, KTK - thanks for that. I must admit to wondering last night if the girl I kept an eye on until she reached relative safety would be concerned at the middle-aged male in a car on his own. But the one last night had absolutely no idea I was even there. She was quite "out of it". To me, she just looked like a sitting duck for trouble. As I said before, I just hope she was fine after I drove on, and just has a hangover this morning. Maybe she'll read the Sunday papers and read that article you linked to?

 

[LegallyBrunette]

In this article it says that the police will not reveal details of how Jill was killed. In which I think we all assumed anyway. It also states how AB is separated from the rest of the prisoners, as they believed he would be attacked.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...dered-Jills-family-gather-to-say-goodbye.html

Same in Sydney papers today, says he is under close watch. They are also still publishing (the same) details that can't be published in Victoria and won't be discussed here . Nothing new.
Sunday Tele has double page about JM background with lots of photos, and other pages on the proceedings generally.

I think we all need to go and sit in the sun (if you are southern hemisphere
and enjoy the day. Sorry Melbourne people about MCG result yesterday, nothing to say about a game later today here Going out to get some serious caffeine in a mug. xx

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Actually - you make an excellent point! And I think you're quite right. That's why a phone, even without a SIM card, can still make emergency calls (I think the number is 112 from a mobile in Australia). When my phone is on - I just checked it - with the SIM card out, up the top where it usually says 3G, it just says "SOS only".

I think the only way the phone can't be tracked is if it is switched OFF. And preferably with the battery removed. It is then just an inert piece of hardware with no reception or transmission.

So if the perp in this case removed the SIM, but left the phone on, it could still have been traced. On the other hand, many phones require the battery to be removed in order to get at the SIM, which would have turned it off. Maybe Jill's was an iPhone or similar, where the SIM is inserted via a little side slot?

Very good point!

Thank you both for enlightening me, my phone is 7 years old! Very very interesting info, cheers.

 

[FruitTingles]

Yes a lot of Bris residents would remember the above case. Just as a matter of interest, our now very well known Inspector Ainsworth worked on that case with the great result of apprehending the guy...& yes the perp is still in prison.

What was this case called?