Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

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Why would it be that the jury can only hear about MS s previous convictions if he testified.? IT must be why he did not testify.
I don't know what the jury will do in his case, if he gets off then he will get out of prison. If he is given a second chance at life I hope he will go in a different direction. I think he will need a lot of help with drug addiction if he does get out of prison and not reoffend.
 
There was discussion (yesterday?) regarding the cell service provider of DM. If this is a screenshot from his phone (as was entered into evidence), it would suggest he was with Fido.

FWIW it appears Fido was acquired by Rogers in 2004, though a quick Google search shows numerous complaints about poor cell service using Fido in 2012, so perhaps they didn't always share towers...?
a4c4171b328bfeed9556237a94f684c1.jpg
 
If MS testifies. All six of his previous criminal convictions become knowledge with the jurors. So in essence, each will hear all his criminal convictions which get stated as the date, location, charge and sentence. In other words, they would know he convicted of murder, Hamilton, life in prison and the date. After this info gets released, he then tell his story, problem is, jurors will not believe someone who has a murder conviction.

Right now, TD is hoping that the jurors can view MS as someone who has no prior record, never met LB, never actually said her name. So in a way, it could quite difficult to convict MS.

I do believe TD has given MS a shot at acquittal. I think it will take a very long discussion among the jurors. Not really sure what they will do.

BBM Are we sure this is true or is just being bandied about on here?

I'm pretty sure unless he says something about his character his prior convictions can't be brought up.
 
BBM Are we sure this is true or is just being bandied about on here?

I'm pretty sure unless he says something about his character his prior convictions can't be brought up.

Normally previous convictions can only be introduced if they go towards a live issue in the trial. If the accused takes the stand then his or her honesty are automatically at issue. Therefore, any charges that may show an inclination towards dishonesty such as fraud or theft will normally be admitted.

The judge though must decide for each conviction which is admitted whether the probative value outweighs the prejudicial effect to the accused.

It would be extremely rare for prior murder convictions to pass this test and be admitted.
 
Regarding the Canadian jury selection process — I don’t believe that lawyers in Canada are usually allowed to question potential jurors at all. Our selection process is completely different from what we see in the U.S.

So I don’t think that the court would even know whether or not a juror sitting in Laura’s trial had any knowledge of Tim’s trial.

Even the jury questionnaire that people fill out contains very little information.

Here is an article from The Toronto Star about jury selection. Sorry that it is from 2008.

******

“Sometimes lawyers can ask prospective jurors, briefly, if they are biased against the race of the defendant or affected by pre-trial publicity. But normally the Crown and defence lawyers only know the candidate's name, area of residence and profession as they pick 12 jurors out of groups of 60 to possibly 400 prospects.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/10/14/the_inexact_art_of_jury_selection.html


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Normally you are quite correct but this case is anything but normal.

In highly public cases the judge can add safeguards to assure that the accused(s) get a fair trial.
 
Why would it be that the jury can only hear about MS s previous convictions if he testified.? IT must be why he did not testify.

I don't know what the jury will do in his case, if he gets off then he will get out of prison. If he is given a second chance at life I hope he will go in a different direction. I think he will need a lot of help with drug addiction if he does get out of prison and not reoffend.

I hope he gets a second chance at life too, but that won't happen for twenty-five years or more.
 
Why would it be that the jury can only hear about MS s previous convictions if he testified.? IT must be why he did not testify.
I don't know what the jury will do in his case, if he gets off then he will get out of prison. If he is given a second chance at life I hope he will go in a different direction. I think he will need a lot of help with drug addiction if he does get out of prison and not reoffend.

if he is acquitted of the LB murder he still has to serve his 25+ years for the TB murder. He won’t be let out of jail.
 
I hope he gets a second chance at life too, but that won't happen for twenty-five years or more.
I feel MS definitely can turn his life around with a lot of help. DM no way he had a lot of privilege and went to private schools and had so much and he had a dysfunctional family but a father who made sure DM was going to be taken care of financially. MS did not have a father in the picture, it looks like the father abandoned him when the marriage was over.
MS if he gets help and if he does not receive another M1 conviction I think could be in society and not re-offend.
DM IMO is a psychopath therefore can never be helped.
 
if he is acquitted of the LB murder he still has to serve his 25+ years for the TB murder. He won’t be let out of jail.

I believe the key to understanding M1 mandatory life sentence, is that it truly is a life sentence. However, part of the life sentence may be served on parole.
25 years ineligible for parole, starting on the TB conviction.

If MS was found not guilty in the LB murder, and if he is released in 22 years (once eligible for parole), he will be on parole with conditions for the remainder of his life, still serving the life sentence.
If MS is found guilty in the LB murder, his parole will very likely never be allowed, even if sentences are concurrent. In that case, his life sentences, will be behind bars.
 
I believe the key to understanding M1 mandatory life sentence, is that it truly is a life sentence. However, part of the life sentence may be served on parole.
25 years ineligible for parole, starting on the TB conviction.

If MS was found not guilty in the LB murder, and if he is released in 22 years (once eligible for parole), he will be on parole with conditions for the remainder of his life, still serving the life sentence.


If MS is found guilty in the LB murder, his parole will very likely never be allowed, even if sentences are concurrent. In that case, his life sentences, will be behind bars.

Can sentencing for a new crime be concurrent? I thought, different crime, different penalty. Not concurrent.
Is it up to the judge? What is the law?
Looking for DB to help us here.
 
i just googled waste disposal and it looks like there is a transfer station at the 407 and the 427. Draglam Waste..... could it be related??

http://www.draglamwaste.com/

There is also Rapid Waste disposal but the website doesn’t exist anymore. They seem to only do rental bins, but they are right near where the phones pinged in Clairport.

Evidence would long since be gone, if that is what happened to the mattress. Makes one wonder though.

Imagine if DM had a change of heart and confessed, filling in all the details we are so interested in...... I feel bad for Laura's family, never truly knowing how she died, did she suffer, was it quick, no chance for a proper funeral, never truly knowing the truth.
 
I feel MS definitely can turn his life around with a lot of help. DM no way he had a lot of privilege and went to private schools and had so much and he had a dysfunctional family but a father who made sure DM was going to be taken care of financially. MS did not have a father in the picture, it looks like the father abandoned him when the marriage was over.
MS if he gets help and if he does not receive another M1 conviction I think could be in society and not re-offend.
DM IMO is a psychopath therefore can never be helped.
I'm confused, winter2017. You were literally calling for the death sentence for both the two accused not too long ago.
 
I only put this forward because it's Sunday nite and no one is writing much.
Can you imagine the uproar if, because of the new SCoC ruling, Dungey finds enough or even one prejudicial statement that would cause Judge Code to stop proceedings?
He is a pretty smart lawyer and he might if he could.
Just thought I'd throw that out there cuzz it's so quiet.
 
barf
I hadn't heard that either

I recall that during the Michael Rafferty trial the Crown was unable to introduce evidence of internet searches on Rafferty's computer because a SEPARATE search warrant was required for digital items. That's why the Jury didn't hear about his searches on "how to rape a child".

If the information is gleaned through the proper channels with the proper search warrants I believe it's admissible.

MOO
 
I'm still stymied by the DM/MS relationship after referencing billandrews excellent phone text spreadsheet. Five years ago they're 25/26, and Millard fashions himself as a wannabe rennasanse man, telling the lady's what they want to hear, and he brings Smich the deadbeat leech into his inner circle. I guess we know why now. And on another thought, AM should consider himself lucky he took a contact job in Winnipeg at the time in question of the murder, or IMO Millard would have him involved also.
 
I've finally had some time to sit and really read through billandrews' timeline.

Well done, sir. Thank you for this.

In reading all of the exchanges in sequence, combined with the other evidence and testimony presented ... I'm confident in saying that, were I on the jury, I'd be satisfied in my decision to hand down M1 convictions to both parties.

The messages show, to me, that there was knowledge by MS of what was going to happen ... and the holes in texts can easily be explained away by them being in the same place at the same time and speaking/acting together in person. I'm confident that they were together based on the cell pings.

It just seems so ... stupid. I think DM is a person of at least average intelligence, and for him to make so many of the blatantly stupid "mistakes" he made baffles me. Not the least of which is the fact that he'd have known the last few/frequent calls/contact LB had were to him, and would be traced to him -- but to then document via photos the things that he did ... he's just really, really stupid.

Most laypeople know that if someone goes missing, the 1st person they look to is the spouse/partner, followed by a good look at their last/frequent contacts. How did he overlook this as a "criminal mastermind?" Is that why we have the introduction of the Lucas Bate phone post-LB/pre-TB?
And don't get me started on the letters -- crafting a story about the death/disappearance of LB before even being charged? Come on, now.

Perhaps he was diluted in his self-perceived intelligence because he surrounded himself with so many people who were, arguably, less intelligent than he. By comparison, he was a genius. Made to feel even more superior because the people he kept in his circle depended on him for the basic necessities of life, sex, or a paycheque.

I don't think he'll truly feel the magnitude of his fall from demented grace until the conclusion of all 3 trials and he's spent a few more years in lockup and realizes he's got absolutely nowhere to go and no other cards in his hand.
Assumptive, of course, that he is capable of feeling any of those feelings at all.
I don't anticipate any sort of self-reflective reflection; rather, a delusional life in prison where he wraps himself in education and writes nonsensical "brainstorming" memoirs.

As for the MS-rehabilitation discussion ... I'm not so sure.
With some clarity away from the drugs and lifestyle he was leading as a freeloading degenerate ... could he turn the corner?
Maybe.
But let's not forget he was a willing participant in 2 (IMO) murders, of his own volition.
He talked tirelessly of getting a job and making something of himself, but he never did. The alternative was too easy.

I'd be happy to see them both live out their days, without parole, in prison.

I do still find myself wondering how much CN knew.
A lot of communication has her seemingly in the know ... but there's not enough evidence presented for me to commit to my feelings toward her involvement.
And perhaps rightfully so, for she's not on trial here.

I am looking forward to the release of the information that the jury didn't see, and perhaps seeing more of the letters presented in WM's trial for a better look at the bigger picture.

Crown stated something about the implausibility of coincidence in their closing address that stuck with me and has been what I've been using as a measure of reason to review all the evidence with.

It's a sad reality, but both accused are responsible for this heinous, senseless tragedy and deserve no less than M1 convictions.
 
Looking through the txt in docs:
Oct 13 5:19 pm Smich texts Millard: "Everything else has got to stay low. Time to go have one of our chats soon at the titty bar." Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Oct 13 5:19 pm Millard texts Smich: "tru." Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony"

Is it the bar in a basement?
 
I've finally had some time to sit and really read through billandrews' timeline.

Well done, sir. Thank you for this.

In reading all of the exchanges in sequence, combined with the other evidence and testimony presented ... I'm confident in saying that, were I on the jury, I'd be satisfied in my decision to hand down M1 convictions to both parties.

The messages show, to me, that there was knowledge by MS of what was going to happen ... and the holes in texts can easily be explained away by them being in the same place at the same time and speaking/acting together in person. I'm confident that they were together based on the cell pings.

It just seems so ... stupid. I think DM is a person of at least average intelligence, and for him to make so many of the blatantly stupid "mistakes" he made baffles me. Not the least of which is the fact that he'd have known the last few/frequent calls/contact LB had were to him, and would be traced to him -- but to then document via photos the things that he did ... he's just really, really stupid.

Most laypeople know that if someone goes missing, the 1st person they look to is the spouse/partner, followed by a good look at their last/frequent contacts. How did he overlook this as a "criminal mastermind?" Is that why we have the introduction of the Lucas Bate phone post-LB/pre-TB?
And don't get me started on the letters -- crafting a story about the death/disappearance of LB before even being charged? Come on, now.

Perhaps he was diluted in his self-perceived intelligence because he surrounded himself with so many people who were, arguably, less intelligent than he. By comparison, he was a genius. Made to feel even more superior because the people he kept in his circle depended on him for the basic necessities of life, sex, or a paycheque.

I don't think he'll truly feel the magnitude of his fall from demented grace until the conclusion of all 3 trials and he's spent a few more years in lockup and realizes he's got absolutely nowhere to go and no other cards in his hand.
Assumptive, of course, that he is capable of feeling any of those feelings at all.
I don't anticipate any sort of self-reflective reflection; rather, a delusional life in prison where he wraps himself in education and writes nonsensical "brainstorming" memoirs.

As for the MS-rehabilitation discussion ... I'm not so sure.
With some clarity away from the drugs and lifestyle he was leading as a freeloading degenerate ... could he turn the corner?
Maybe.
But let's not forget he was a willing participant in 2 (IMO) murders, of his own volition.
He talked tirelessly of getting a job and making something of himself, but he never did. The alternative was too easy.

I'd be happy to see them both live out their days, without parole, in prison.

I do still find myself wondering how much CN knew.
A lot of communication has her seemingly in the know ... but there's not enough evidence presented for me to commit to my feelings toward her involvement.
And perhaps rightfully so, for she's not on trial here.

I am looking forward to the release of the information that the jury didn't see, and perhaps seeing more of the letters presented in WM's trial for a better look at the bigger picture.

Crown stated something about the implausibility of coincidence in their closing address that stuck with me and has been what I've been using as a measure of reason to review all the evidence with.

It's a sad reality, but both accused are responsible for this heinous, senseless tragedy and deserve no less than M1 convictions.
I love where you say that he surrounded himself with far less intelligent people and by comparison he was a genius , that is a priceless comment , so true. It made him feel superior and also to have MS and MM both desperate for money , to be willing to do things for him so he would give them a small compensation. MM went across the border with him I believe to act as a decoy because he was always searched.
MS and MM were very dependent on him for food , a place to stay, to get around they did not drive, and for drugs.
That is where I question the parents of these two , MM was just 18, did her parents not wonder why she had no job and how was she living?
She dropped out of school to just drift around with MS. She had a step dad she said was too strict, but maybe he was trying to raise her and she just did not like the rules. She seems like a very rebellious young person and wanted to do what she wanted to.
I think it is amazing she did not get more involved in the criminal activities and then would have also ended up in prison. It is very surprised she did not, it could have very well been her also facing prison time because she seemed to be controlled by MS and who knows in future they may have involved her in more murders, Then she would be in prison for the rest of her life.
 
I'm confused, winter2017. You were literally calling for the death sentence for both the two accused not too long ago.
Did I say that on WS. I said it on another forum but if I did not say it here, why bring what I said on another forum like fb on here.
I have learned a lot by this time following the instructions to the jury. I did not understand aiding and abetting and how someone even if not directly causing the death can still be charged with M1.
That helps me understand how the jury will decide the fate of MS.
We all agree that DM was the leader and he deserves M1. I think MS did assist him to plan and encourage him to murder Laura but am not 100% sure.
I think personally MS was manipulated by DM , MS did not have the money or other things like a gun or money to buy one so he just went along it looks like with what DM wanted to do.
He was desperate for money I learned that on here , but reading the texts from him to DM, I had no idea he was that dependent on DM for his survival.
Learning all these things I feel MS was completely manipulated and if he is found guilty of M1 again I will not disagree but if he is not , I do believe that now away from DM and not on drugs it is possible he came to his senses and I don't think he is a psychopath.
 
I've finally had some time to sit and really read through billandrews' timeline.

Well done, sir. Thank you for this.

In reading all of the exchanges in sequence, combined with the other evidence and testimony presented ... I'm confident in saying that, were I on the jury, I'd be satisfied in my decision to hand down M1 convictions to both parties.

The messages show, to me, that there was knowledge by MS of what was going to happen ... and the holes in texts can easily be explained away by them being in the same place at the same time and speaking/acting together in person. I'm confident that they were together based on the cell pings.

It just seems so ... stupid. I think DM is a person of at least average intelligence, and for him to make so many of the blatantly stupid "mistakes" he made baffles me. Not the least of which is the fact that he'd have known the last few/frequent calls/contact LB had were to him, and would be traced to him -- but to then document via photos the things that he did ... he's just really, really stupid.

Most laypeople know that if someone goes missing, the 1st person they look to is the spouse/partner, followed by a good look at their last/frequent contacts. How did he overlook this as a "criminal mastermind?" Is that why we have the introduction of the Lucas Bate phone post-LB/pre-TB?
And don't get me started on the letters -- crafting a story about the death/disappearance of LB before even being charged? Come on, now.

Perhaps he was diluted in his self-perceived intelligence because he surrounded himself with so many people who were, arguably, less intelligent than he. By comparison, he was a genius. Made to feel even more superior because the people he kept in his circle depended on him for the basic necessities of life, sex, or a paycheque.

I don't think he'll truly feel the magnitude of his fall from demented grace until the conclusion of all 3 trials and he's spent a few more years in lockup and realizes he's got absolutely nowhere to go and no other cards in his hand.
Assumptive, of course, that he is capable of feeling any of those feelings at all.
I don't anticipate any sort of self-reflective reflection; rather, a delusional life in prison where he wraps himself in education and writes nonsensical "brainstorming" memoirs.

As for the MS-rehabilitation discussion ... I'm not so sure.
With some clarity away from the drugs and lifestyle he was leading as a freeloading degenerate ... could he turn the corner?
Maybe.
But let's not forget he was a willing participant in 2 (IMO) murders, of his own volition.
He talked tirelessly of getting a job and making something of himself, but he never did. The alternative was too easy.

I'd be happy to see them both live out their days, without parole, in prison.

I do still find myself wondering how much CN knew.
A lot of communication has her seemingly in the know ... but there's not enough evidence presented for me to commit to my feelings toward her involvement.
And perhaps rightfully so, for she's not on trial here.

I am looking forward to the release of the information that the jury didn't see, and perhaps seeing more of the letters presented in WM's trial for a better look at the bigger picture.

Crown stated something about the implausibility of coincidence in their closing address that stuck with me and has been what I've been using as a measure of reason to review all the evidence with.

It's a sad reality, but both accused are responsible for this heinous, senseless tragedy and deserve no less than M1 convictions.

This is excellent, and I completely agree with all your thoughts.

It is so deeply sad and frightening to see that MS and DM actually could/would HAVE gotten away with the murders of LB and DM for his father, had it not been for Tim’s murder.

Even with DM’s and MS’s utter stupidity, the TPS sure weren’t doing their part to investigate and discover all this readily-available evidence. Horrific that it took Tim’s life to spark the interest that should have begun in July 2012.


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