GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #5

[SouthAussie]

Quite honestly, whether or not Heather is receiving financial benefit for these articles (and I would think she would be getting something, knowing her greedy self who couldn't wait to gain her inheritance by natural causes taking her mother, but had to murder her instead), I can certainly see her cutting out and pasting all of her pics and articles in a big scrapbook called "Look At Me, Look At Me, Look At Me".

 

[Orange Tabby]

I've been away from the board the last several days and want to resume my analysis of Tommy Schaefer, replying to a post a wee bit upthread.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

So Tommy claims that he genuinely believed he faced the firing squad?

I don't believe him. I absolutely, positively, unequivocally don't believe him.

He was in Kerobokan for months before he testified. He talked to other prisoners. He knew the truth from them.

He talked to prison guards. He knew the truth from them.

He had an assigned Bali attorney. He knew the truth from him.

He was in touch with the US, including the extremely capable and respected defense attorney Tom Durkin. He knew the truth from him. (Durkin's practice includes defense in cases with foreign aspects, and he has a post at Loyola University in Chicago, giving him access to scholars in any number of fields, including Indonesian history and law.)

He was in touch with Heather, who at that point cared for him far more than he cared for her. He knew the truth from her. (What she might have said to convince him to lie was surely something along these lines: if I didn't do it, then we get all the money. Say you did it, [maybe: we'll buy short sentences,] and then we'll live happily ever after with the money.)

Who knows who else he was in touch with. Australian aid workers who know the score. A sympathetic US consulate employee speaking off the record. A local doctor who took pity on him. He knew the truth from them.

Who knows how many, many times he independently learned that his crime was not one which would entail the death penalty. A penalty very rarely invoked for murder in Indonesia.

If he didn't hear it from all those sources, he heard it from many.

Why would he say otherwise?

Because he's a liar.

Because the only remorse he feels is that of being caught.

Because this helps to obfuscate the horrendous role he played in a brutal murder for money. A murder which "embarrasses" him and which he believes should not be examined too closely.

Because he craves sympathy like a drug.

Because he's used to people believing his sob stories, his self-serving "tall tales" such that he remained a young man out of control, yet one who usually got away with things.

Because -- long after it's too late -- he wants to get back at Heather. He desperately, unrelentingly, whole-heartedly, and with every vibration and frequency in his body, wants to get back at Heather.

 

[Orange Tabby]

In the entire history of the world, since the advent of judicial courts, people actually guilty of crimes have lied about what they did. Thousands, millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of defendants who were actually guilty have lied in their court testimony.

Most of the time, far and away the vast majority of the time, these lies minimized or denied the true actions of the defendant in an attempt to escape justice. However, justice has usually prevailed and such miscreants have been found guilty and punished.

Yet for some bizarre reason, there are people who think the earth will shake if Tommy Schaefer concedes that he lied in court; if he now admits, "I testified in court that Sheila's death was an accident precipitated by a fight she started. I lied. The judges were right to find me guilty of premeditated murder because that's exactly what it was."

Remove the fig leaf of bribery. It's irrelevant. A red herring.

If Tommy concedes that the judges were right and he now accepts and admits this, (you can add for good measure, if you wish, that he is grateful to the judges for seeing the truth), if he says this and nothing more, what tsunami realistically awaits him?

Seriously.

Tommy fails to do this because he refuses to accept and admit his own culpability. He's not frightened by blocks of wood. He is blocked by his own wooden and stupid belief that he can continue to deny he is a murderer.

 

[Orange Tabby]

Quite honestly, whether or not Heather is receiving financial benefit for these articles (and I would think she would be getting something, knowing her greedy self who couldn't wait to gain her inheritance by natural causes taking her mother, but had to murder her instead), I can certainly see her cutting out and pasting all of her pics and articles in a big scrapbook called "Look At Me, Look At Me, Look At Me".

:laughcry:

 

[Orange Tabby]

In October of 2016 TS claimed that HM was "profiting as much as she can". He likely knows, or at least knew up until their split, what she was able to do to manipulate cash flow for herself and obviously by Oct of 2016 he was mad about it because he was no longer benefiting from whatever she was getting.

SBM

Tommy Schaefer is a liar. We all know that.

Tommy is also massively gullible.

He believed that Sheila was worth something like $11 million, all on Heather's say so.

Do you believe that's true? Tommy learned it from Heather, after all. Do you think anything he learned from Heather is the truth?

By the time of their break-up, he was willing to say anything against Heather. Anything.

This is the man, even before his association with Heather, was known, positively known, for his tall tales.

And for what it's worth, "profiting as much as she can" could mean bilking Oshar and charities.

I've analyzed Tommy's October 2016 screed at length recently upthread. There's no reason whatever to believe he's saying anything there we should believe. It's packed with lies, self-justification, self pity, faux remorse, and bizarre vibrations and frequencies.

And it's clear that it is also packed with trying to blame Heather for things that he has done.

You may believe the Sanskrit proverb "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" in this case. But I do not.

After he wrote that self-serving insult to Sheila's family, he hoped his mum would win Stella and the big bucks. He lost.

Tommy Schaefer is a shameless murderer and liar who would say anything to discredit Heather Mack. She's a hideous human being, but I do not believe Tommy on any particular detail without corroboration.

 

[Orange Tabby]

The Crime Watch Daily interview and the "exclusive pictures" that ME was providing to the Chicago Tribune, along with HM's direct line to one of their reporters were a couple of examples of ways in which HM, via OS and ME was providing "exclusive" information to the US media prior to TS making that claim. Neither of those outlets painted her in a very good light so what was her incentive for doing that?

SBM

Seriously?

From the moment she was arrested until today, Heather has made absurd, often disgusting, claims that have never been to her benefit.

Heather has never, ever presented herself in good light. To anyone.

In fact, Heather hasn't said anything of significance about the murder, ever, which serves her or was true.

Heather's lies (a very, very, very brief selection):

--she had an ectopic pregnancy (lie)

--a gang killed Sheila and she and Tommy barely escaped (lie)

--she wanted to take Sheila's body to the American consulate (lie)

--the Indonesians were being explicitly racist by serving them KFC (lie)

--her mother started the fight which led to her death (lie)

--her mother made a racial attack against Tommy (lie)

--Heather was sexually assaulted by the cops and had unexplained puncture marks on her skin (lie)

--her mother was an alcoholic (lie)

--she needed to ring Judge Cohen because she didn't have a lawyer (lie)

--her mother stole from her and had assets hidden where Heather couldn't find them (lie)

--her mother murdered her father (lie)

--her mother went into a rage in Bali because that's when Sheila first learned that Heather was pregnant (lie)

--Heather was innocent of murder (lie)

Nothing can paint Heather in a sympathetic manner. To believe her story is to deny the sun of day and moon of night.

Even Elkin parroted much of her nonsense, to his shame.

So why you should expect that she could ever offer anything believable to anyone is beyond me.

Heather has peddled the unbelievable from the moment she was caught.

But that has never stopped her from a vogue in front of the cameras or over the phone. She thinks she can lie to anyone.

She has gone public because she thinks can get away with it and (or) she doesn't care if people believe her.

If you are truly and genuinely suggesting that the Chicago Tribune paid for any direct contacts with Heather, then you are utterly beyond my reach.

 

[IslandLover]

snipped

What's relevant is not where Heather is but where the publication outlets are. "People" is in the U.S. The "Mail" is in the U.K (although it may also have offices in the U.S). Those publications are governed by the laws of the country in which they are incorporated or where they do business.

The online edition of the Daily Mail newspaper does indeed have an office in the U.S. (New York, I believe). MailOnline, which is publishing the stories about the Mack case, has 3 separate sections: U.K., U.S.A. and Australia. The print edition of the paper publishes news essentially for the U.K. market and none of the celebrity rubbish that you find in the online edition. The stories about Heather Mack are published by MailOnline in their U.S. section.

The U.S. arm of the Daily Mail is indeed governed by U.S. laws. MailOnline is presently being sued for defamation by Melania Trump!

 

[IslandLover]

I notice that some strongly opposing views are beginning to appear in this thread. May I just ask that we treat other posters opinions with respect?

 

[Kamille]

I think we all can agree that TS and HM lie. A lot. Trouble is, how do you separate the lies from the truth? They can't be lying about everything and I believe there is a truth or two buried in there somewhere.

Unless it can be proven with facts from the investigations of both them and RB, or other corroborating factual evidence that has been reported in MSM, everything we personally believe they've lied about, or not lied about, is our opinion. Nothing more. And we're all entitled to one.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

He was in Kerobokan for months before he testified. He talked to other prisoners. He knew the truth from them.

He was in the jail, in a cell by himself, for almost 4 months before being transferred to Kerobokan. So was HM. They had already given their official statement 3 months before they got there. They do not testify at trial.

He talked to prison guards. He knew the truth from them.

He may have talked to any jail guards who spoke English. Doubt the topic of conversation would have been telling him that no one ever gets the death penalty for premeditated murder. If anything they likely told him that they had just elected a new President who was getting tough on carrying out death penalty sentences so he'd better start talking to the investigators because neither he nor HM were cooperating due to their American attorneys who had no knowledge of the system over there.

He had an assigned Bali attorney. He knew the truth from him.

He refused to speak to his assigned Bali attorney, who was also HM’s assigned attorney. HM hired her own Indonesian attorney, Raja Nasution. A UK anti death penalty group hired an attorney for TS named Suroso. I guess they took the threat of the death penalty seriously enough to arrange an attorney for him. After that the surprisingly similar statements were given by TS and HM individually about the fight over the pregnancy, the racial slur and threat of "killing the unborn child" that precipitated the fight in which TS had to defend himself against SVWM's attempt to strangle him.

He was in touch with the US, including the extremely capable and respected defense attorney Tom Durkin. He knew the truth from him. (Durkin's practice includes defense in cases with foreign aspects, and he has a post at Loyola University in Chicago, giving him access to scholars in any number of fields, including Indonesian history and law.)

Thomas Durkin was so out of touch with what was going on over there that he was still denying that his client admitted to killing SVWM 4 days after the AP reported that the Chief of Police had announced TS had admitted to killing her.

He was in touch with Heather, who at that point cared for him far more than he cared for her. He knew the truth from her. (What she might have said to convince him to lie was surely something along these lines: if I didn't do it, then we get all the money. Say you did it, [maybe: we'll buy short sentences,] and then we'll live happily ever after with the money.)

As stated above, he was never in touch with HM prior to the official statements they made to investigators which were used as their "testimony" at trial. However, somehow they managed to give similar statements after they both acquired new attorneys.

Who knows who else he was in touch with. Australian aid workers who know the score. A sympathetic US consulate employee speaking off the record. A local doctor who took pity on him. He knew the truth from them.

I don't think so. Not at the jail prior to giving his statement anyway.

 

[Kamille]

Correction to above post (too late to edit)

Apparently they did both testify in court at their trials. For some reason I thought they only had to agree to their statements. So TS did have time to change his story while he was awaiting trial. Not sure how that would have gone but I still believe he believed that the death penalty was possible for both of them. They both stuck to the same story as their official statements. At that point HM had retained AS, paid her money and was probably pretty sure they were going to get lenient sentences with that story. Well at least she was, the money for TS's "defense" was not released by Judge Cohen. He got exactly what the prosecution asked for. But the judges also considered his sentence "lenient"...

A judge described Schaefer’s actions as “sadistic,” but said his polite behavior in court, and remorse during the trial helped get him a lighter sentence. While prosecutors sought 15 years for Mack and 18 for Schaefer, the judges could have sentenced the couple to the maximum punishment for premeditated murder in Indonesia, death by firing squad.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/04...ted-of-killing-sheila-von-wiese-mack-in-bali/

MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

Correction to above post (too late to edit)

Apparently they did both testify in court at their trials. For some reason I thought they only had to agree to their statements. So TS did have time to change his story while he was awaiting trial. Not sure how that would have gone but I still believe he believed that the death penalty was possible for both of them. They both stuck to the same story as their official statements. At that point HM had retained AS, paid her money and was probably pretty sure they were going to get lenient sentences with that story. Well at least she was, the money for TS's "defense" was not released by Judge Cohen. He got exactly what the prosecution asked for. But the judges also considered his sentence "lenient"...



MOO

Having followed Aussies through trials in Bali, I was not surprised they did not get the death penalty. I think their trials are fully engineered before they happen. The lawyers, the judges, the prosecutor, the defendant(s) all appear to be playing their part in court ... with the details and outcome already fully anticipated and reported in MSM. I have yet to see a trial not get the outcome that has been reported in Bali prior to the trial.

I know they put some of their locals to death for murder, and give even more death sentences for drugs .... but the executions of Aussies Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran - for drug dealing - were a complete shock (even though that was their sentences) and caused massive ongoing political issues between Australia and Bali. I still don't think these executions would have happened if Indonesia did not have a new leader who was trying to flex muscle and show how tough they were by scheduling the executions of many people who had been languishing in prison for many years.

 

[SouthAussie]

I think the problem for Tommy was that he did not have adequate experience about the 'ways' of Bali justice. Nor did he have the money to hire that adequate experience. So Heather trumped again, and got out of the murder of her mother - something we all know she plotted and we all think she was more physically involved with. And, heck, she knowingly let the murderer into the hotel room to commit the crime! If that doesn't make her equally responsible, I don't know what does!!

But that is Bali justice for you. $$$$$$

 

[Kamille]

Having followed Aussies through trials in Bali, I was not surprised they did not get the death penalty. I think their trials are fully engineered before they happen. The lawyers, the judges, the prosecutor, the defendant(s) all appear to be playing their part in court ... with the details and outcome already fully anticipated and reported in MSM. I have yet to see a trial not get the outcome that has been reported in Bali prior to the trial.

I know they put some of their locals to death for murder, and give even more death sentences for drugs .... but the executions of Aussies Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran - for drug dealing - were a complete shock (even though that was their sentences) and caused massive ongoing political issues between Australia and Bali. I still don't think these executions would have happened if Indonesia did not have a new leader who was trying to flex muscle and show how tough they were by scheduling the executions of many people who had been languishing in prison for many years.

Apparently 3 of the 14 people who were executed with Myu and Andrew were convicted of premeditated murder.

Seventeen people have been executed for murder in Indonesia since 1998. [30] Eight of these executions have taken place since 2008.

In some of Indonesia’s first executions since 2008, three prisoners were executed in May 2013 after being convicted of premeditated murder. [31]

Five executions for murder took place in 2008

https://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Indonesia

 

[SouthAussie]

Apparently 3 of the 14 people who were executed with Myu and Andrew were convicted of premeditated murder.

Yes, a surprisingly small percentage .. when compared to our western judicial systems where murder is frowned upon much more than drug dealing.

I think that you'll find that the persons executed for premeditated murder there were not westerners. Which was my point, really. Very rarely are westerners executed there, not in many, many years - until Andrew and Myuran.

And I obviously cannot know for sure, but I have a feeling it will be many, many more years - if ever - before a westerner is executed there again. A point was being made by a new, strong leader of the country. Not by the judicial system.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Interesting article about adult children murdering parents when the parent discovers the adult child has been committing fraud against them.

Maybe not the exact case here, but interesting: http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/fall08/6/

 

[ajaylee]

Other than possibly after RB's sentencing, I don't suppose we'll get much news about Stella, TS or HM in the near future.

HM's still got at least 7 years to go and it's about to get real. No Stella to hide behind or to distract or amuse her or to use to get money and perks or as leverage with TS. I think even HM has gotten the message: keep posting videos on social media, and she won't get sentence remissions.

I think she's already been drinking and getting into drugs. What surprises me is that she seems to have managed to keep her 'attitude, you know what it do' under control. I think there's less violence in the women's area than in the men's, but women have been beaten up before.

It would be interesting to see how often Oshar brings Stella to visit after a few months. I read that it's an hour journey from her home to the prison. That would mean she'd almost have to stay for at least an hour to make the trip worth while - I can't see her being allowed to just leave Stella there while she runs errands, but who knows. I can't see someone making a trip like that more than once a week at most.

 

[FigTree]

Interesting article about adult children murdering parents when the parent discovers the adult child has been committing fraud against them.

Maybe not the exact case here, but interesting: http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/fall08/6/

Thanks for linking the article Hiandmighty.
There was enough information in there to tick off some profile pointers.

The thing that is very unnerving is that if HM was in therapy, and there had been that many (over 80) police reports relating to her violent behaviour - then I think that there was
a duty of care that could have been activated by the therapist and officials to disclose that family members may be in danger.

I would like to see what the timeline was for when HM started hunting around for a person to murder her mother.
Was it at a time when HM's fraud was suddenly found out and she was confronted for it by her mother?
Suspicion is one thing - finding out the truth about HM's further devious, deceitful and fraudulent acts is quite another thing.
Sheila was in mortal danger from the time she was notified by the banks.

HM up until then possibly thought that she could shift blame to her mother for her behaviour.
But there was proof now, and not only that there was enough video taped evidence of the fraud - from the antics with her friends at the Hilton, which Sheilas credit card payed for.
HM seemed convinced (as in the other cases in the article) that the money that her mother was spending, was hers. It would not be hers until the trust matured when she was 30 years old.
The money now is not hers, she has forfeited that by being the instigator of a premeditated murder, to get to that money.

Which if I read it correctly in the article, proposes that HM will always be a lingering threat (perceived or actual) to anyone who has outed her in any way, or/and has helped her in any way.
That's why her ability to manipulate others into doing things for her on her behalf (charitably or deceptively) is crucial to her psychopathic survival. She has no remorse, she takes no responsibility, she has no empathy, she has no emotional connections - and she will say that she has these things and display the appropriate behaviour and will be well versed in words and actions which convey the sincerity of it all. But, underneath all of this is only the personal urge to win, to blackmail and to put others in a position whereby they pay a personal ransom to stayl out of her target range and hopefully be safe.

On another note - was she ever going to be charged in the US with fraud by deception over the credit card scam and the false documentation to acquire that money?

 

[FigTree]

Other than possibly after RB's sentencing, I don't suppose we'll get much news about Stella, TS or HM in the near future.

HM's still got at least 7 years to go and it's about to get real. No Stella to hide behind or to distract or amuse her or to use to get money and perks or as leverage with TS. I think even HM has gotten the message: keep posting videos on social media, and she won't get sentence remissions.

I think she's already been drinking and getting into drugs. What surprises me is that she seems to have managed to keep her 'attitude, you know what it do' under control. I think there's less violence in the women's area than in the men's, but women have been beaten up before.

It would be interesting to see how often Oshar brings Stella to visit after a few months. I read that it's an hour journey from her home to the prison. That would mean she'd almost have to stay for at least an hour to make the trip worth while - I can't see her being allowed to just leave Stella there while she runs errands, but who knows. I can't see someone making a trip like that more than once a week at most.

I don't think we had heard the last of HM while she is in prison over there.

 

[ajaylee]

Some folks say that Schappelle Corby faked a mental breakdown that won her a week in town recovering and eventually an early release from prison.

Whether her mental breakdown was real or not, I wouldn't be surprised to see HM try the same thing: fake a mental breakdown because she's missing her daughter. She could try to play her status as a grieving mother to try to get a presidential pardon or early release. I have no idea if she'd succeed or not.