Bluecrab -- Theories...

[aussiesheila]

close enough,

I personally think that "Perfect Murder Perfect Town" by Larry Schiller is the best of the lot because it is thorough, it doesn't seem biased, and it has a name index in the back for easy reference. None of the other books have an index, so once you read them there's no easy way to later source the page about what you may have remembered in a particular book.

IMO the next best source is not a book. It's Google. Information about almost anything, including the JonBenet Ramsey case, is at your finger tips with the internet's Google. Read the police interviews of the Ramseys and some of the depostions of the major players.

But you must read at least one of the books as a foundation.

BlueCrab

close enough,

what BlueCrab says is exactly right IMO.

You can't trust books or newspapers. Your best chance of getting close to the truth is to read exactly what BlueCrab suggests.

And IMO PMPT is the best, really the only book worth reading as a foundation to provide a framework for the case.

If you are not good at Googling you do what I did and go through all the posts on this Forum. There a a lot of very diligent and helpful members who provide links in their posts that you can go directly in to.

 

[Pocono Sleuther]

I love reading everyone's theories and tidbits on this case. I do find it EXTREMELY frustrating to sleuth this one though. Everytime I find something that just might 'fit'...it doesn't. I end up scratching my head alot when researching this case. Thanks to all who posted and added their theories and advice. Special thanks to BC for getting back to me. Even though I often feel like I'm :banghead: on this one, I'll continue. Hope everyone is having a great week.

 

[simplesimon]

I just returned from vacation and read Steve Thomas's book which I really liked.I think he did focus on PR being guilty and I think she was involved in the cover-up. I also think she wrote the note.

I am now reading DOI and was very surprised at Patsy saying she was in her underwear in the am and ran to get dressed after she realized the police would be coming. I had never heard that! I think she said it because she had on the same clothes as the nite before and from reading all the evidence that the R's were given she knew St was suspicious of that. So she wanted to address it by implying she dressed in a rush.
The other issue is that John said he looked out the windows with binoculars before the police got there and saw a strange vehicle by the Barnhills. Again it seems suspicious as I do not think he told the police.

Anyway both books are worth reading and I am still in the beginning of DOI.

 

[rashomon]

I just returned from vacation and read Steve Thomas's book which I really liked.I think he did focus on PR being guilty and I think she was involved in the cover-up. I also think she wrote the note.

I am now reading DOI and was very surprised at Patsy saying she was in her underwear in the am and ran to get dressed after she realized the police would be coming. I had never heard that! I think she said it because she had on the same clothes as the nite before and from reading all the evidence that the R's were given she knew St was suspicious of that. So she wanted to address it by implying she dressed in a rush.
The other issue is that John said he looked out the windows with binoculars before the police got there and saw a strange vehicle by the Barnhills. Again it seems suspicious as I do not think he told the police.

Anyway both books are worth reading and I am still in the beginning of DOI.

I agree with you - Patsy adapted her story to fit the evidence, which is typical for guilty people: they (unlike innocent people) continually change crucial parts of their story as their understanding of the evidence and its damning implications increases.

Also, when the police first arrived at the house, not only was Patsy wearing the clothes she had worn the night before, but she was also wearing make-up and her hair was not disheveled or anything (like one would expect from a person who had just gotten up).
The inference one can draw from this is that Patsy never went to bed at all on Christmas night.

 

[aussiesheila]

I am now reading DOI and was very surprised at Patsy saying she was in her underwear in the am and ran to get dressed after she realized the police would be coming. I had never heard that! I think she said it because she had on the same clothes as the nite before and from reading all the evidence that the R's were given she knew St was suspicious of that. So she wanted to address it by implying she dressed in a rush.

This is an example of what I think DOI is all about. I think it has been put out to get the public to think what wonderful people the Ramseys really were and how they are completely innocent.

I don't have a problem with John though, as I think what he says is the truth. I think the book is mainly Patsy's work. Patsy is very guilty as far as being involved in the coverup goes IMO, so when you read about her being in her underwear as she read the note, I think you should take this with a grain of salt. I think Patsy made a point of putting it in the book because she knows people are saying it was suspicious that she was fully dressed and had her makeup on when the police arrived. I don't suppose John remembers what Patsy had on at the time so he wouldn't know whether this was true or not.

But anyway, my point is that DIO was written so long after the event that Patsy has had time to re-enact the whole thing in her mind so that she has a scenario established that she would like people to believe IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

I agree with you - Patsy adapted her story to fit the evidence, which is typical for guilty people: they (unlike innocent people) continually change crucial parts of their story as their understanding of the evidence and its damning implications increases.

Also, when the police first arrived at the house, not only was Patsy wearing the clothes she had worn the night before, but she was also wearing make-up and her hair was not disheveled or anything (like one would expect from a person who had just gotten up).
The inference one can draw from this is that Patsy never went to bed at all on Christmas night.

I agree completely with your first paragraph rashomon. As for the second, well I suppose she could have done her hair and put on all her makeup while still in her underwear and then come downstairs like that. I am not saying I believe that she did. But it is possible.

 

[Pocono Sleuther]

I have to say that I believe no matter what the Ramseys main purpose was to keep up their 'perfect' appearance. DOI is simply their sick way of justifying their actions on that awful day and the days/years following. I would love to hear what BR has to say. He's now away at college and hopefully out of his parent's claws. He needs to speak and I do believe that sooner or later he will. JAR, I believe, also holds an important key to this murder. The Ramseys closed ranks and surrounded themselves with supporters immediately. I really do not believe they would do this to protect an outsider. The murderer has to be a family member, imo. I do lean towards a BDI theory simply because I can understand their fierce protection of this last biological child together. What if it was an awful accident? They knew BR would be labeled forever as a murderer either way. I just don't have the details totally worked out. :banghead: This case just frustrates the heck out of me!!!

 

[tipper]

[...]

I am now reading DOI and was very surprised at Patsy saying she was in her underwear in the am and ran to get dressed after she realized the police would be coming. I had never heard that! I think she said it because she had on the same clothes as the nite before and from reading all the evidence that the R's were given she knew St was suspicious of that. So she wanted to address it by implying she dressed in a rush.
[...]

I believe it was John who was in his underwear and rushed to get dressed.

 

[simplesimon]

I believe it was John who was in his underwear and rushed to get dressed.

In Chapter 2 of DOI
Patsy says to herself
got to be at the airport by 6;30 or so.Going to push us to get everyone going because time is short.
I reach for my clothes and start dressing.
She then states she hurries down the back steps and at the second floor laundry area she says
Need to get a few things for the trip.Not much,since we already got clothes and most necessary items at the house in Charlevoix.
She states she shoves laundry into a plastic garbage sack that will go onto the plane "as is"
She then hurries down and sees the note, she screams for John and he is wearing his underwear as he races to read the note
She runs to the phone and dials the police,the Fernies and the Whites as she sees the squad car approach she states
For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop In JBR room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there.

I am only on chapter 3 of DOI and I have lots of questions.
Again I am surprised she states she was in her underwear after stating she reached for her clothes. Also Inthe chapter where John talks about going to Charlevoix he states Patsy was packing all week for that trip ,the Disney trip and readying clothes for a Jan. pageant.
It seems odd that she is packing clothes from the laundry room in a garbage bag, It seems they all had plenty of clothes and they only had a very short time to get ready.They also had clothes in Charlevoix.
I also think it is strange he talks about a strange vehicle he saw at the Barnhills.Was THAT ever mentioned?? to the police?? the Fernie's ? the White's?

I agree that it seems this book was written to address all the evidence.They had plenty of time to read over all the evidence that was shared with them and their high powered lawyers.

 

[sissi]

I believe it was John who stated in DOI that "he" was in his underwear.
John saw two vehicles, and yes he mentioned both in his interview with the police. One, the little white hatchback, the other the pickup in the alley behind the Barnhills, I don't think anyone followed up on either.
Myself....I was hoping the little white hatchback that belonged to the mcsanta's would have been searched for evidence..but..that didn't happen.

 

[tipper]

In Chapter 2 of DOI
Patsy says to herself
got to be at the airport by 6;30 or so.Going to push us to get everyone going because time is short.
I reach for my clothes and start dressing.
She then states she hurries down the back steps and at the second floor laundry area she says
Need to get a few things for the trip.Not much,since we already got clothes and most necessary items at the house in Charlevoix.
She states she shoves laundry into a plastic garbage sack that will go onto the plane "as is"
She then hurries down and sees the note, she screams for John and he is wearing his underwear as he races to read the note
She runs to the phone and dials the police,the Fernies and the Whites as she sees the squad car approach she states
For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop In JBR room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there.

I am only on chapter 3 of DOI and I have lots of questions.
Again I am surprised she states she was in her underwear after stating she reached for her clothes. Also Inthe chapter where John talks about going to Charlevoix he states Patsy was packing all week for that trip ,the Disney trip and readying clothes for a Jan. pageant.
It seems odd that she is packing clothes from the laundry room in a garbage bag, It seems they all had plenty of clothes and they only had a very short time to get ready.They also had clothes in Charlevoix.
I also think it is strange he talks about a strange vehicle he saw at the Barnhills.Was THAT ever mentioned?? to the police?? the Fernie's ? the White's?

I agree that it seems this book was written to address all the evidence.They had plenty of time to read over all the evidence that was shared with them and their high powered lawyers.

Yes, but you'll notice on p. 13 there is a large blank line before the "For the first time I am aware..." paragraph starts. We know it was John who looked under JonBenet's bed and he refers to Beth and his brother Jeff.

It would have been useful if they had had one person in italics and the other plain (or something like that) to separate them, but they didn't. I remember having to sometimes read on a bit within a section to figure out who was talking.

On page 10 Patsy says "I reach for my clothes and start dressing..." If she started dressing before going downstairs, she probably finished.

 

[simplesimon]

Yes, but you'll notice on p. 13 there is a large blank line before the "For the first time I am aware..." paragraph starts. We know it was John who looked under JonBenet's bed and he refers to Beth and his brother Jeff.

It would have been useful if they had had one person in italics and the other plain (or something like that) to separate them, but they didn't. I remember having to sometimes read on a bit within a section to figure out who was talking.

On page 10 Patsy says "I reach for my clothes and start dressing..." If she started dressing before going downstairs, she probably finished.

Yes I see what you mean,I went back and read it over and it does seem that it is John stating he was in his undies. It is confusing that they keep switching from Patsy to John telling the story. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[sissi]

DAN SHULER: Other than his reindeer, do
21 you know what he showed up in?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I opened the door
23 prematurely and they were coming out of a little,
24 kind of a little hatchback car. I don't know my
25 cars very well. But small, with the back end sort
0647
1 of lift up.
2 DAN SHULER: Like a little compact type
3 of car?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 MARY KEENAN: Do you remember the color?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was dark. I'm
7 (INAUDIBLE) say it was white or something.
8 MARY KEENAN: What car would you compare it
9 to if you had to?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know my cars real
11 well. Like a Pinto hatchback or something like
12 that.
13 MARY KEENAN: Smaller?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Smaller.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: One of the cars I noticed
16 driving by was a white, could have been a Pinto. I
17 don't know that I got a good look at who was in
18 it.
19 MARY KEENAN: Did you notice if it was one
20 person or two?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think one is what I
22 remember.
23 MARY KEENAN: And what was your initial
24 thought?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Just thought I saw him drive
0648
1 by twice on Cascade and 126th, and there was
2 hardly any traffic
3 MARY KEENAN: What time?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Early. Sevenish, probably. It
5 was early in the process.
6 DAN SHULER: So you noticed a small
7 white car?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
9 DAN SHULER: Hatchback type?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been. But it's
11 possible. I don't remember it specifically. But it
12 was a small white car.
13 DAN SHULER: Okay. Several times?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I want to say twice.
15 MARY KEENAN: Twice in one direction, or
16 down and back?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Possible twice in the same
18 direction. I mean it was a little suspicious to me
19 at the time, but it wasn't enough to really
20 (INAUDIBLE) in on it.

The car went by twice at around seven a.m., yep, that was suspicious.

 

[simplesimon]

I believe it was John who stated in DOI that "he" was in his underwear.
John saw two vehicles, and yes he mentioned both in his interview with the police. One, the little white hatchback, the other the pickup in the alley behind the Barnhills, I don't think anyone followed up on either.
Myself....I was hoping the little white hatchback that belonged to the mcsanta's would have been searched for evidence..but..that didn't happen.

But wasn't that interview many months after the murder?

 

[tipper]

[...]

13 DAN SHULER: Okay. Several times?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I want to say twice.
15 MARY KEENAN: Twice in one direction, or
16 down and back?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Possible twice in the same
18 direction. I mean it was a little suspicious to me
19 at the time, but it wasn't enough to really
20 (INAUDIBLE) in on it.

The car went by twice at around seven a.m., yep, that was suspicious.

Do you have a link to this interview? I don't think I have a copy of it. Thanks.

 

[close_enough]

i ordered Larry Schiller's book..should have it Monday....am excited about getting started on it...

 

[bakerprune64]

i ordered Larry Schiller's book..should have it Monday....am excited about getting started on it...

Hi Close_Enough!

 

[laini]

I had thought in DOI, it was John R who said he realized he was naked, not Patsy. Wasn't there a break in that chapter's paragraphs at that part of the story, and they seemed to be switching author's voice from her to him. I think it is confusing how they switch back and forth. Correct me if I am wrong, but I just started reading DOI this week and that was how I took it.


BTW- love this board

 

[laini]

OKay, I have a problem with replying to things before realizing I am not reading the last page of replys on this board. Sorry - that was already addressed about it being him not her saying that. On a side note, I thought it was odd Patsy said they put the kids gifts in two piles for Christmas morning
with a few unwrapped on top so the kids knew right away whose pile was whose. Then later she says that Christmas morning BR had to read the labels for JBR when they were handing them out. Why hand out prsents and read labels if you each already have them all in a pile before you go downstairs. It seems she says a lot of things as fact and strong memory of the event in one place, then later says something different or vague.

 

[Sepka]

On a side note, I thought it was odd Patsy said they put the kids gifts in two piles for Christmas morning
with a few unwrapped on top so the kids knew right away whose pile was whose. Then later she says that Christmas morning BR had to read the labels for JBR when they were handing them out. Why hand out prsents and read labels if you each already have them all in a pile before you go downstairs.

Our family has always done that, at least since I was a toddler. Everybody gets their pile of presents, but then you read the label out loud before opening each present so everyone knows who it's from. The younger children, of course, have to have theirs read for them.