Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[Juballee]

Ya it was kinda surreal to me that I'm actually feet away from them. I kept thinking if I ran up right now and punched DM in the head I'd be semi famous

RSBM

I am more than a little dismayed that so many people are condoning or outright encouraging the idea of a violent act on a website dedicated to victims of violence. I was always taught an eye for an eye and the golden rule and all that. Obviously a sucker punch to the head is not the same as a murder, but both are acts of violence perpetrated on a stranger, and personally I condone any violence against strangers. Or loved ones for that matter. I am anti-violence all the way. I also believe that calling MS and DM celebrities is glorifying them and I personally find that disturbing.

I further imagine that if the courts get wind of people considering committing violence against the defendants, that certain spectators or even all spectators unrelated to the principals could be excluded from the courtroom to ensure that the costly trial can continue smoothly without needless interruption or violating the defendants right to a fair trial.

All my opinion only.

 

[Errrr]

Not only that but it would be a waste of knuckle since he clearly doesn't feel anything.JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

RSBM

I am more than a little dismayed that so many people are condoning or outright encouraging the idea of a violent act on a website dedicated to victims of violence. I was always taught an eye for an eye and the golden rule and all that. Obviously a sucker punch to the head is not the same as a murder, but both are acts of violence perpetrated on a stranger, and personally I condone any violence against strangers. Or loved ones for that matter. I am anti-violence all the way. I also believe that calling MS and DM celebrities is glorifying them and I personally find that disturbing.

I further imagine that if the courts get wind of people considering committing violence against the defendants, that certain spectators or even all spectators unrelated to the principals could be excluded from the courtroom to ensure that the costly trial can continue smoothly without needless interruption or violating the defendants right to a fair trial.

All my opinion only.

There are many people here who believe in capital punishment for murderers too, and it is their right to have that belief. Rodney Stafford probably wanted to kill MR, and was entitled to feel that way ...but he didn't. Thoughts don't get people in trouble, actions do.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I think we all, being adults, took it in the joking way it was intended. DM is perfectly safe, he'll be fine.

Their notoriety, though, is entirely of their own doing.

 

[Wollander77]

The sloppy cover up keeps suggesting that this crime was not planned in advance, again, least not by DM in my opinion. All his involvement so far as I have seen in court has been either centered on actual test drives, or in covering up the crime after the fact. Even just a tiny bit of advance preparations on his part would have eliminated nearly every single clue that Points to his involvement, from covering his tattoos with a long sleeve shirt to shutting off the cameras at the hanger to bringing the incinerator their ahead of time. All my opinion only.

By all the indicators you've described (DM allowing the owners to see his face, etc.), it doesn't seem as though he was out to steal a truck either. But he apparently had been, if we're to believe the Crown (and so far, they've done a pretty good job laying down the groundwork for their case). DM and MS brought a gun to the test drive. They seemed prepared for the possibility of a stand-off with TB or any owner they felt physically weak enough to subdue.

I'm hypothesizing that perhaps DM and MS had anticipated every eventuality, including murder. Maybe they didn't plan on killing TB, and maybe they hadn't intended on stealing his truck that night, but something happened on the test drive that prompted them to do so. And they were ready for that split decision to steal the truck and do whatever was necessary to secure the vehicle and cover their tracks, however imperfectly. Also, to quote the Crown's opening statement (from Abro's blog, which admittedly is not an official transcript): the video at the hangar came from "images captured by a neighbouring business's surveillance camera system at Millardair." I don't think we've heard definitive word that DM hadn't turned off the security system at his hangar, but I expect we'll hear from the Crown about that.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

SB and family seemed in great spirits. SB was joking and smiling with her friend at numerous times. MS was just emotionless. Didn't talk to anyone not even his counsel. DM looked grim when walking in but was chatting smiling and joking with Pillay throughout. BTW MS is SHORT lol DM is tall and skinny like a toothpick.

Thank you for your description of the accused! Because we never see pictures of them (except old ones) I'm interested to hear/read about their optic and behavior. Please tell us again when you had another day at trial.

 

[deugirtni]

The tweets were a little skimpy on this, but based on the cross by the defense, I got the impression that the police report said he went in the side door on the driver side of the trailer. I can't imagine he would have went through the broken window so climbing around the hood would be the only option if he entered on the passenger side. That looks like a very small space to be able to do that in. Also, the back window of the truck does not appear to be one that opens so that would remove that option too IMO.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

Is it possible the officer went in the trailer via TB truck's passenger side, and entered TB's truck to put the key in the ignition to turn the wheel to allow them to get the truck out of the trailer, by climbing enough into the rear passenger window, which was said to have been already rolled down? Actually, if the officer went in on that side of the trailer, wouldn't the front passenger door have been able to open out into the trailer door opening? If he went in on the other side, the top of the truck box looks to be almost at the top of the trailer door opening on that side, so how would he have gotten in the box at all? And if he simply squeezed his body over to put the key into the ignition via the already-opened driver's side window, then the officer could potentially have wiped off any potential prints and/or blood evidence (which could in effect, end up helping the accuseds, rather than hurting them).

In any case, I can certainly see why TD was having a bit of a rant regarding the lack of details on police entry of the vehicle. I think however, that the point TD was trying to make, was that through whichever means was accessed, it was possible for the bullet casing thingy to have been mislodged from wherever it had been inside the truck, to roll or otherwise move into the rear, where his client was presumably seated. I think, imho, he seems particularly interested in establishing there is no evidence to suggest that his client was the shooter. Not sure why, or if, this will particularly make a difference to the outcome of his client's verdict or sentence.... depending on whether the Crown can prove premeditation or abduction, and whether his client knew what was going down. MOO

 

[Kamille]

Is it possible the officer went in the trailer via TB truck's passenger side, and entered TB's truck to put the key in the ignition to turn the wheel to allow them to get the truck out of the trailer, by climbing enough into the rear passenger window, which was said to have been already rolled down? Actually, if the officer went in on that side of the trailer, wouldn't the front passenger door have been able to open out into the trailer door opening? If he went in on the other side, the top of the truck box looks to be almost at the top of the trailer door opening on that side, so how would he have gotten in the box at all? And if he simply squeezed his body over to put the key into the ignition via the already-opened driver's side window, then the officer could potentially have wiped off any potential prints and/or blood evidence (which could in effect, end up helping the accuseds, rather than hurting them).

In any case, I can certainly see why TD was having a bit of a rant regarding the lack of details on police entry of the vehicle. I think however, that the point TD was trying to make, was that through whichever means was accessed, it was possible for the bullet casing thingy to have been mislodged from wherever it had been inside the truck, to roll or otherwise move into the rear, where his client was presumably seated. I think, imho, he seems particularly interested in establishing there is no evidence to suggest that his client was the shooter. Not sure why, or if, this will particularly make a difference to the outcome of his client's verdict or sentence.... depending on whether the Crown can prove premeditation or abduction, and whether his client knew what was going down. MOO

You can see that they were working on the truck while it was in the trailer. They did as much as they could do and then they decided they need to remove it from the trailer. So perhaps they were able to winch it down far enough so that they could access through the door on the drivers side before the wheels turned. TD's problem was that there were no pictures of them doing this and the officer involved was not there to ask about it. They had to rely on notes. Which did not tell how this was possible. And the officer on the stand obviously didn't know either. I'm sure there was one who did, other than the retired officer but they were not on the stand either.

Bottom line. It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things and didn't do any favours to TD's client IMO.

Now as far as the bullet is concerned, you can see quite clearly in the pictures that they had to manipulate the back seat up and down for the photos. The shell casing was likely lodged between the bottom and back of the seat and after a couple of times raising and lowering it looking for and photographing evidence, the casing likely fell though. I don't think it's rocket science. As well as the fact that a shell casing ejected from the right side of a gun fired from the front seat would likely land on the back seat and roll between the bottom and back of the seats. Why TD is not taking this logic as his argument I have no idea. Because if you look at the area where it was found, there is a large "well" area in front of where the casing was found. It is impossible that it "rolled" there from the front of the vehicle. But it may have rolled around on the back seat until it became lodged between the bottom seat and the seat back.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

By all the indicators you've described (DM allowing the owners to see his face, etc.), it doesn't seem as though he was out to steal a truck either. But he apparently had been, if we're to believe the Crown (and so far, they've done a pretty good job laying down the groundwork for their case). DM and MS brought a gun to the test drive. They seemed prepared for the possibility of a stand-off with TB or any owner they felt physically weak enough to subdue.

I'm hypothesizing that perhaps DM and MS had anticipated every eventuality, including murder. Maybe they didn't plan on killing TB, and maybe they hadn't even intended on stealing his truck that night, but something happened on the test drive that prompted them to do so. And they were ready for that split decision to steal the truck and do whatever was necessary to secure the vehicle and cover their tracks, however imperfectly. Also, to quote the Crown's opening statement (from Abro's blog, which admittedly is not an official transcript): the video at the hangar came from "images captured by a neighbouring business's surveillance camera system at Millardair" - perhaps this would explain DM's oversight about security cameras at his hangar.

In regard to your mention of 'something happening on the test drive that prompted them', I have noticed that it was been stated a number of times that TB was trying to sell what seemed to have been a problematic, money-sucking 'lemon' of a truck. Is it possible that sometime during the course of that testdrive (which seemingly would have had to have happened within a minute or two of the 3 men getting into the truck if TB was already deceased by the time they got to that intersection on Trinity Rd where both trucks were seen exiting from a laneway minutes later by a neighbour), TB relayed information that he had spent thousands of dollars on repairing the vehicle since he had purchased it, and the man who was potentially buying the vehicle got angry, and accused TB of trying to unload his lemon onto him and perhaps lost it on him? I have no idea whether the price TB was asking for his truck was a fair price, considering its lemony history? I'm not sure what people are expected to do with their lemon vehicles, but I'm thinking that whoever purchases one, might not be a happy camper.

Even if there is a potential reason for sudden, unanticipated anger, it doesn't explain why a gun was brought to the testdrive in the first place, nor why friends had already been told of plans to 'steal' a truck, nor why a burner phone was purchased and used for making testdrive appointments, etc.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think it's pretty clear they didn't plan on killing TB. (Unless they are completely brain dead) Why would you shoot him in the front seat of the car you are stealing? Do you want blood all over the car? Do you want to travel back with a dead man in your car? Do you really kill a man after having his wife and some other guy see you? Not to mention all the subsequent frantic disorganized clearly unprepared attempts at cover up. If they did wanna kill him (thrill kill or w.e) wouldn't they stop the truck and say they wanna take a look at some outside part of the truck and then after tim is out just shoot him in the field? No need for burning seats. Burning your clothes. No shattered window. No GSR no blood splatter etc. One of them pulled a gun and TB tried to grab it and they shot him. Either to kill him or it went off in a struggle. (Again. Unless they are brain dead and this was the plan)

My thoughts are: Tim was known for his funny being and for teasing ie his nieces/nephews. When DM/MS appeared, Tim and the tenant and Sharlene found their behavior strange and Tim even asked Sharlene whether he should do the test drive. When Tim entered the truck and DM drove along the driveway, I could imagine Tim may have asked jokingly: Now you guys, are you going to steal my truck or what is planned by you both? - Maybe after that the situation immediately became menacing to DM/MS and perhaps one of them pulled out the weapon, upon which Tim will have resisted somehow (broken passenger side window).

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/30/stolen-harley-found-on-property-of-accused-tim-bosma-killer

The bike and trailer were taken from his back driveway in downtown Toronto in broad daylight last fall (2012) and witnesses reported seeing perhaps two men in a black truck back in and take it away.

He managed to secure some surveillance video which he turned over to Toronto Police.

"Perhaps that tape will have some good information on it for the current investigation," Marty said. "I don't know if it was ever looked at."

He had put the bike for sale on Kijiji "more to test the market.

"I don't know how it went but someone may have done a reverse look-up to get my address because soon after the bike and trailer were gone," he said.

-.-.-.-

Maybe, it wasn't the Yukon IF the car was indeed seen black in broad daylight.

 

[Wollander77]

In regard to your mention of 'something happening on the test drive that prompted them' ... the man who was potentially buying the vehicle got angry, and accused TB of trying to unload his lemon onto him and perhaps lost it on him? I have no idea whether the price TB was asking for his truck was a fair price, considering its lemony history? I'm not sure what people are expected to do with their lemon vehicles, but I'm thinking that whoever purchases one, might not be a happy camper.

The burst of anger's a possibility. I'd been thinking along the lines of DM and MS failing to convince TB to step out of the truck (which they really shouldn't been surprised about), DM and/or MS getting trigger-happy with the gun in response to TB struggling against them (which is still puzzling if the murder had been an accident - the struggle must've been fairly violent to warrant using a gun), or DM/MS deciding that TB was easy to overpower and even easier to kill (either or both planned on using the gun all along). Also, I thought their plan to steal the truck was pretty sloppy and audacious (showing up at owner's home hours late, etc.), so maybe that's why I'm not overly surprised at how messily they've handled elimination of incriminating evidence, including TB's body.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Please help me and find me the pic of the shoe print on TB's truck.






I would like to compare the print with the boot print in case Sonia V. (Orangeville).

 

[swedie]

That's possible too I suppose. Although I don't think TriStar would have had a whole selection of incinerators hanging around their yard. It still would have had to be ordered by them and shipped to them by SuperNova before anyone could come and pick it up IMO.



MOO

It makes sense the incinerator was delivered to the hangar and not the farmland as stated by BP back in May, 2013. The trailer was built in the hangar, so it only goes to reason it was delivered there. Again, the invoice shows a freight charge of $1250. MOO.

 

[swedie]

Very respectful of the Crown. Thank you for making the right decision.

JC @susanclairmont @AdamCarterCBC @mollyhayes Glad we didn't see bones! Was this a decision among journalists to not release sensitive images?

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont Feb 19
Susan Clairmont Retweeted JC
Crown team asked for a pub ban on those photos. Media did not contest it. Essentially, a mutual agreement.

 

[swedie]

Please help me and find me the pic of the shoe print on TB's truck.


View attachment 89562



I would like to compare the print with the boot print in case Sonia V. (Orangeville).

HTH FG. Way, way, down the list of photos. Sorry but shoe/boot print doesn't seem to match IMHO. And if I remember correctly, DM was wearing running shoes. I guess he could have changed footwear. But the prints are not the same.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

The two are white males in their 20s. The first is described as roughly 6’1” and between 170 and 180 pounds. He had short brown hair and was unshaven. He was wearing jeans and a long sleeve orange shirt with running shoes, police said.

http://globalnews.ca/news/551499/hamilton-police-to-provide-update-on-tim-bosma-case/

 

[swedie]

BBM

Just getting caught up and wanted to comment on this. Unfortunately, in all of the trials I've followed there are almost always loose ends and unanswered questions. Doesn't mean the jury can't reach a verdict with confidence, just means there are some things we never find out for various reasons. Drives me bonkers, sometimes.

Perhaps ABro's book will tie up a lot of those loose end and unanswered question for us. MOO.

 

[swedie]

If you look at the first photo of TB's truck inside the trailer, IMO the perspective is much better than that other photo. Not to forget that photos can be deceiving. It's apparent Det. Const. CW entered the trailer through the left side door. No doubt in my mind there is adequate room for him to enter the trailer through that door. Once inside he may have moved to the back of the truck where he discovered there was no license plate on the back of TB's truck. From there he may have gotten into the bed of the truck and then slid over the cab on his stomach, to the front, looking down through the wind shield to get the VIN. OR once he squeezed in through the left side door and got to the back of the truck, seen no license plate on it, perhaps he went underneath the truck on his stomach, coming out at the front of TB's truck. I assume he was looking for TB when he noticed there was nothing underneath the truck, but it could have also been how he made his way to the front of the truck to get the VIN. IMHO I don't see it as being an impossible feat.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

After the tactical team broke the locks, Weick said, they found a black pickup inside, along with a tarp, car parts and ramps, but no licence plate. There was nothing underneath the truck.
The truck’s interior was “partially stripped,” and Bosma wasn’t inside the trailer, Weick said.
He then found the truck’s vehicle identification number and yelled it out to another officer, Mark Levangie, standing outside. Levangie also testified on Tuesday.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...lling-tim-bosma-continues-this-afternoon.html

 

[deugirtni]

By all the indicators you've described (DM allowing the owners to see his face, etc.), it doesn't seem as though he was out to steal a truck either. But he apparently had been, if we're to believe the Crown (and so far, they've done a pretty good job laying down the groundwork for their case). DM and MS brought a gun to the test drive. They seemed prepared for the possibility of a stand-off with TB or any owner they felt physically weak enough to subdue.

I'm hypothesizing that perhaps DM and MS had anticipated every eventuality, including murder. Maybe they didn't plan on killing TB, and maybe they hadn't intended on stealing his truck that night, but something happened on the test drive that prompted them to do so. And they were ready for that split decision to steal the truck and do whatever was necessary to secure the vehicle and cover their tracks, however imperfectly. Also, to quote the Crown's opening statement (from Abro's blog, which admittedly is not an official transcript): the video at the hangar came from "images captured by a neighbouring business's surveillance camera system at Millardair." I don't think we've heard definitive word that DM hadn't turned off the security system at his hangar, but I expect we'll hear from the Crown about that.

From what I can understand of the opening statement, the neighbouring business's camera caught the 2 trucks showing up at the hangar, and then firing up the incinerator. Then I believe there is a second recording, retrieved from CN's bedroom which shows DM and MS inside the hangar during the time while the incinerator cooked away on the outside. It will be interesting to see what it shows them doing!

 

[Ontario Mom]

RSBM

I am more than a little dismayed that so many people are condoning or outright encouraging the idea of a violent act on a website dedicated to victims of violence. I was always taught an eye for an eye and the golden rule and all that. Obviously a sucker punch to the head is not the same as a murder, but both are acts of violence perpetrated on a stranger, and personally I condone any violence against strangers. Or loved ones for that matter. I am anti-violence all the way. I also believe that calling MS and DM celebrities is glorifying them and I personally find that disturbing.

I further imagine that if the courts get wind of people considering committing violence against the defendants, that certain spectators or even all spectators unrelated to the principals could be excluded from the courtroom to ensure that the costly trial can continue smoothly without needless interruption or violating the defendants right to a fair trial.

All my opinion only.

Without fail, every single time there is an article in the news about a horrific act of violence committed against someone, the general public responds in the comments with suggestions far worse than a sucker-punch to the back of the head. Before online forums, the same conversations were held around the dinner table, bar, water cooler, etc.

How one personally feels about violence in general against anyone, doesn't negate the fact that it's a perfectly natural reaction for many many people, to want to see the person who caused the suffering, to do a bit of suffering of their own. It may not come out very eloquently in those online comments, but in a very real way it's a sense of demanding justice for an injustice. I suspect those working within the criminal justice system, are well aware of how the general public feels about MS and DM.

moo