Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Massasauga Rattler]

I respectfully disagree with the notion that Millard would have wanted Smich to have the toolbox and gun.
Looks more and more to me like Hagerman & Michalski began taking the lead for themselves now that DM was unavailable....
--1st they ditch the weed and the gun in a stairwell with little concern whether it is ever collected by anyone let alone Smich.....
--2nd one of them at least called Crimstoppers and pointed the finger squarely at Smich and I don't think Stoppers was ever in Millard's troubleshooting list of things to do when it all goes sideways

If DM was thinking of framing Smich would have needed that gun in order to spin a tale that it was MS who pulled the trigger.
If DM had wanted to get the gun back to MS his instructions to Hagerman would have been very clear on that issue.

We're all trying to analyze the chain of motives around the passing of the guns and weed, and some of these theories may be close to the truth. However, it just could very well be that in the panic of the situation, NONE of them were thinking clearly, and everyone was just reacting irrationally. There may be no plan, agenda, or purpose, other than passing a hot potato around to wherever and whoever they could.

 

[JuneBug67]

Let's not forget that the sentence for the current charge wil more than likely result in 25 years with no parole. And if there is a conviction for 1st degree charge in the LB case that is another 25. Add a possible 25 for the murder of WM.
DM is over 30 now plus (25+25+25).......do the math---that is a serious sentence for life.

It will likely not be pretty for Smich either with a possible 25 now and another possible 25 for LB.....he may well be over 75 before he gets out.

I know that Dangerous Offender is a legal designation in the Canadian system.....I am not so sure that 'serial killer' is.

IMO

I'm not sure a judge in a separate proceeding has the jurisdiction to stack periods of parole eligibility on top of each other. My assumption is that a second or third conviction would simply start the 25 year clock on the conviction date, effectively making the sentences concurrent. I'm not certain though. I know it can be done in same transaction crimes, but not sure about separate offences.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I was thinking about the blue backpack that smelled like weed. What would be the value of the drugs in it? Anyone hazard a guess ? I don't know the street value of marijuana, but if the backpack was stuffed full of it, like 10 pounds of the stuff, wouldn't that point to DM being a dealer? Way more drugs than for "personal use". Blows the image his defence team is trying to portray. JMO

If MS had 1 lb, that is 128 street-sized servings of 1/8 oz (3.5g) and that is a lot of dope. (That was the pot he hoped so sell for a lawyer)

MH said DM had "narcotics", which are opiods like percs (percocet) oxys (oxycontin) and so on. But obviously he also had weed, in the backpack. 10 lbs would not fit in a backpack: too bulky.

RCMP street drug prices:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/28242613/RCMP-street-price-list-for-illicit-drugs-in-Toronto

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

How do you figure it's remorse. I see it that this punk is crying because he's being exposed for what he really is. This guy knowingly participated in these missions, he probably knowingly helped hide the gun that he knew killed Tim Bosma, and he lied on three different police statements. Why didn't he have remorse then? He knew Tim was dead. Why not call the cops about the toolbox. Because of this punk the murder weapon is gone. He should be in jail. I feel his participation is almost on a par with CNs, so why no charges?

He did call Crime Stoppers.

 

[ABro]

I'm not sure a judge in a separate proceeding has the jurisdiction to stack periods of parole eligibility on top of each other. My assumption is that a second or third conviction would simply start the 25 year clock on the conviction date, effectively making the sentences concurrent. I'm not certain though. I know it can be done in same transaction crimes, but not sure about separate offences.

Consecutive sentences can be applied for separate offences.

 

[Claroon]

Then why was Smich so freaked out about having the toolbox and trying to get rid of it?

I answered this on the previous thread that was shut down as I was posting. Maybe the mod can bring it over.

 

[paris_paris]

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 7h7 hours ago
"You were the lookout, right? He gave you 100 bucks?" Sachak says. Hagerman says he doesn't know if money was ever exchanged.

On being advised by his lawyer on what questions to answer... this one made me curious. Hagerman could still be charged with this theft couldn't he? What if he had said he did receive payment for being a lookout. Would that change the charges that could be applied against him? I felt like he did get paid but didn't want to admit to it.

 

[Claroon]

Assuming MS told Daly the truth, and assuming Daly told the truth on the stand. No gun was found, only a single GSR particle was found in the toolbox and Daly testified that he really didn't know what was actually in the toolbox, as he didn't see it's contents. So stating that a gun was definitely in there is speculation, at best IMO. Also, IF a gun was in there, when was in put in there, and by whom? It could have been put in there by MS after​ he received the toolbox, for all we know. MOO

So you're implying in the court of law Daly made up the story to frame MS? There was sure a lot of detail about it being stored in his mom's house in the washing machine, his sister saying to get it out of there, contacting Bleach to buy it, etc. I suppose the GSR might have gotten in there when a gunman retrieved his heroine from the toolbox, but there's no proof of that either. I don't think it's about screwdrivers.

 

[Claroon]

We're all trying to analyze the chain of motives around the passing of the guns and weed, and some of these theories may be close to the truth. However, it just could very well be that in the panic of the situation, NONE of them were thinking clearly, and everyone was just reacting irrationally. There may be no plan, agenda, or purpose, other than passing a hot potato around to wherever and whoever they could.

I agree. I was thinking maybe MS killed TB and that wasn't in the plan which made DM mad. I remember him saying in an article "How did it get to this point?" (not direct quote) It was a mission gone bad. So in panic they'd do what they do on TV and think they must get rid of the evidence. If DM was truly innocent, he wouldn't have done that. He would have called 911 and said he was test driving this truck and his buddy pulled a gun and shot the owner. IMO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

If MS had 1 lb, that is 128 street-sized servings of 1/8 oz (3.5g) and that is a lot of dope. (That was the pot he hoped so sell for a lawyer)

MH said DM had "narcotics", which are opiods like percs (percocet) oxys (oxycontin) and so on. But obviously he also had weed, in the backpack. 10 lbs would not fit in a backpack: too bulky.

RCMP street drug prices:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/28242613/RCMP-street-price-list-for-illicit-drugs-in-Toronto

It really isn't that much. 1 lb would be around $2,500-3,000 in street value. Seeing as BD testified that his buddy only had $100 bucks. IMO he was expecting 1/2 once of weed and not a gun. He didn't want to incriminate himself of trafficking so he said there was no deal.

MOO

 

[Ironworker736]

So you're implying in the court of law Daly made up the story to frame MS? There was sure a lot of detail about it being stored in his mom's house in the washing machine, his sister saying to get it out of there, contacting Bleach to buy it, etc. I suppose the GSR might have gotten in there when a gunman retrieved his heroine from the toolbox, but there's no proof of that either. I don't think it's about screwdrivers.

Where did I imply BD made up a story in court to frame MS?!? If you believe MS told him the truth when he said his own gun was in there, so be it. My point is this testimony is about what the accused told him. Some people have questioned BD's truthfulness, while others question MS's truthfulness. And I certainly never implied there were screwdrivers in there, did I?

 

[SnooperDuper]

It really isn't that much. 1 lb would be around $2,500-3,000 in street value. Seeing as BD testified that his buddy only had $100 bucks. IMO he was expecting 1/2 once of weed and not a gun. He didn't want to incriminate himself of trafficking so he said there was no deal.

MOO

It may not be much is $$$ but in the amount of work/customers needed to move it all, it is a lot IMO.

 

[Errrr]

RSBM.

The first thought that came to my mind is because DM and MS worked together before (Laura) and it went well (they got away with it).

MS's friend BD testified that MS would talk about violent stuff when they got high, so DM probably knew of that interest (and maybe a shared gun interest). It sounds like MS was physically with DM when they took the Bobcat (while the other guys were relegated to lookout duty). MS may have been DM's go-to guy at that point.

I have to say I'm surprised DM commingled his friends like that. I thought he'd keep MS away from the Toronto guys who, while no saints, didn't seem to have much in common with MS.

I agree, MS is the sketchiest of DMs friends and aligns more closely to DMs interests. I think most of the others were opportunistic party boys who had a low regard for MS and were more than happy to toss the blame on him. I suspect DM instructed MH to call LE about MS if Dellen got arrested, without mentioning murder. Once that information got out, it is possible MH had fears for his own set up and needed to get rid of that box. Giving that box to people who don't like Smich was a good way to keep it out of Smiches hands. I also think AM decided on his own to dump things on Smich in his own ate,pt to leave Smich "holding the bag". Smich is an unpopular guy, participated in a crime that resulted in murder, but I don't think he is as culpable as DM. I could see him being released after 25 years but not DM!

 

[Sphinx]

Assuming MS told Daly the truth, and assuming Daly told the truth on the stand. No gun was found, only a single GSR particle was found in the toolbox and Daly testified that he really didn't know what was actually in the toolbox, as he didn't see it's contents. So stating that a gun was definitely in there is speculation, at best IMO. Also, IF a gun was in there, when was in put in there, and by whom? It could have been put in there by MS after​ he received the toolbox, for all we know. MOO

I am wondering why MS kept the tool box ? One would think he would want to get rid of anything that was so closely associated with the crime.

IMO

 

[Ironworker736]

It may not be much is $$$ but in the amount of work/customers needed to move it all, it is a lot IMO.

Sure, if they were moving it ⅛ of an ounce at a time, which would equate to much more work, but also much more profit. At $2500-$3000, like CJPrincess said, you'd be looking at unloading 16 ounces at $150-$200 each...not that much "work" at all IMO

 

[Sphinx]

I was thinking about the blue backpack that smelled like weed. What would be the value of the drugs in it? Anyone hazard a guess ? I don't know the street value of marijuana, but if the backpack was stuffed full of it, like 10 pounds of the stuff, wouldn't that point to DM being a dealer? Way more drugs than for "personal use". Blows the image his defence team is trying to portray. JMO

Good point. Perhaps that is why so many of the witnesses are nervous and lying on the stand. They fear powerful drug dealers in the background associated with DM and MS.
IMO

 

[billandrew]

I spent the day at the trial yesterday and was able to form my own views and opinions of MH's testimony. IMO he was only telling the truth to the extent that he had to, and the rest was vague answers and lies shrouded by his poor memory and weak emotional state:

• He held firm to his position that he never considered whether the toolbox contained anything other than drugs, even though any rational person in his situation would have been more suspicious.
• He claimed that the contents of the box never crossed his mind, even though he admitted to asking DM about it. He "just assumed it was drugs."
• He claimed that he and Michalski never discussed the contents of the toolbox and backpack, even though they met in a park to discuss what to do with those items.
• He cried that he was in shock over his friend's arrest, and kept reverting back to lines like "I made some stupid decisions" and "I just wanted nothing to do with the toolbox", and "I wanted to protect myself and my family."

IMO, MH is a weak individual who maintains a highly selective memory of the events of this case because he is unwilling to own up to his actions and just tell the truth. I find it awfully difficult to feel sorry for him. JMO.

 

[Ironworker736]

I am wondering why MS kept the tool box ? One would think he would want to get rid of anything that was so closely associated with the crime.

IMO

I guess that would be the logical thing to do, and it's easy to think that way as a spectator, in hindsight. But to MS at the time, it was likely just a toolbox. And I doubt he's a GSR expert or anything close to it IMO

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

I am wondering why MS kept the tool box ? One would think he would want to get rid of anything that was so closely associated with the crime.

IMO

Ahhh....to store tools in! DUH!

:facepalm:

 

[Ironworker736]

I spent the day at the trial yesterday and was able to form my own views and opinions of MH's testimony. IMO he was only telling the truth to the extent that he had to, and the rest was vague answers and lies shrouded by his poor memory and weak emotional state:

• He held firm to his position that he never considered whether the toolbox contained anything other than drugs, even though any rational person in his situation would have been more suspicious.
• He claimed that the contents of the box never crossed his mind, even though he admitted to asking DM about it. He "just assumed it was drugs."
• He claimed that he and Michalski never discussed the contents of the toolbox and backpack, even though they met in a park to discuss what to do with those items.
• He cried that he was in shock over his friend's arrest, and kept reverting back to lines like "I made some stupid decisions" and "I just wanted nothing to do with the toolbox", and "I wanted to protect myself and my family."

IMO, MH is a weak individual who maintains a highly selective memory of the events of this case because he is unwilling to own up to his actions and just tell the truth. I find it awfully difficult to feel sorry for him. JMO.

Thanks for the perspective!