Bruce Jenner Becoming a Woman and more...#2

[Cricket99]

I am bored with this - so many more important things going on in the world.

 

[BritsKate]

That is incorrect, he is a man.

She identifies as a woman which is what it's all about. Gender identity has sod all to do with genitalia. Here's the definition as used by the Human Rights Campaign:

The term "gender identity," distinct from the term "sexual orientation," refers to a person's innate, deeply felt psychological identification as a man, woman or some other gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth (e.g., the sex listed on their birth certificate).

Many people whom are tolerant, even if not accepting, choose to address someone transgendered by the way they identify themselves. To do otherwise is kinda like deliberately calling someone a nickname you know they don't like in my opinion. Life is hard enough, what do we get out of being deliberately disrespectful, hurtful, provocative, etc?

Happy LGBTQ Awareness month, everyone! :dance:

 

[Nova]

Disagreement is not intolerance.
Saying someone is wrong is not intolerance.
And it is not hateful to say so.

JMO

Then what do you call it when people insist they know CJ better than she knows herself? When they take it upon themselves to decide what is right and wrong in a matter that doesn't concern them? When they reserve the right to use vocabulary that suits their prejudices rather than using the words the person concerned prefers?

 

[Nova]

Nova, I feel that I have offended you, that was never my intent. I apologize! My brother was gay, he was born in 1948, he died in 1998, I don’t know how old you are, you may know how it was during those years. My daughter is gay. Her life is much easier than my brothers. I wish my brother were alive today so he could finally have a somewhat peaceful life, but he died from Agent Orange, yes he served in Viet Nam. I really believe, in fact I know many people would be very surprised to know how many Gays served in Viet Nam. I believe the word “hero” is just thrown out for anyone who does something unusual. The true heroes are our military who fight to keep our freedom of speech, so people like me and any others can voice their opinions. Sadly some take advantage of that freedom; they throw out all the evil ignorant garbage against anyone who is different from them. I am not attacking anyone, as I said before I couldn’t care less what Bruce/Catelyn does. I hope he will be very happy! I think anyone who “comes out” is brave; I just don’t see them as heroes. When my brother came out, he was very brave, especially at that time, when my daughter came out, she was very scared and very brave, but to me she was not a hero. I do, as always think of the children first. I am concerned about the G-kids in that family. I do believe Bruce Jenner is waiting for his reality show to have that surgery that will remove his penis. Again I apologize to you if I offended you, and to any others that I may have offended. I also had a cousin who was gay. He was the same age as my brother. He could not handle all the hate from all the ignorant people. He committed suicide in 1970.

Grammie, you did not offend me in any way and I'm very sorry I gave you that impression. In fact, I agree with you that the word "hero" is overused. I was responding to a post that seemed to scoff at the idea that what Jenner is doing requires courage. Media *advertiser censored* he may be, but it's still a risk and I think many transsexuals and other LGBT folk will see his openness as an inspiration. That was the sense in which I used the word "hero" and it wouldn't have occurred to me to compare him to combat veterans.

I am so sorry about your cousin. He must have been about my age and I well remember my despair in 1970, when it seemed I was the only gay person in the world. And maybe he would have survived if he had had role models such as Elton John, Melissa Etheridge, Zachary Quinto, Neil Patrick Harris, Ellen Degeneres, etc. (That list was composed off the top of my head and probably misses more important examples.)

Although we don't know their names, I can promise you there are many transsexual young people out there with similar suicidal feelings. And maybe, just maybe, Caitlyn Jenner on the cover of VF will convince some of them that there is hope. That doesn't compare to throwing yourself on a grenade to protect your platoon, we'll agree. But isn't there something heroic in walking out in front to forge a path for others?

 

[Nova]

In the simplest possible terms i mean if you genuinely believe you are a man who should have been born a woman(or vice versa) you are mentally ill and should not be encouraged to live like a woman, all this celebrating of what Bruce has done is a bit vomit inducing to me.
IMO he is a mentally ill person or just a very kinky one.

As I have asked others, what qualifies you to hold this prejudice? I'd like to know specific degrees, postgraduate work, papers published, etc.

 

[Nova]

I don't believe it's all about money. I believe he would've chose to do this with or without fame. But I also believe he is using his fame to both profit financially and to inspire others going through the same. Of course it takes a lot of money to do this, so without his fame he may not have been able to afford to transition.

I have to admit that in his interview with Diane Sawyer (at least as edited), Jenner never mentioned any concern about others. It was indeed all about him. But doing good for one's self and doing good for others aren't mutually exclusive. Jenner may do good for public awareness and self-acceptance by those affected, whether or not that is his intent.

 

[Nova]

Why if you already have the breasts and already had surgery to reduce the adam's apple? Those seems pretty permanent changes already...

I think the difference is that breast implants can be removed and a shaved Adam's apple doesn't keep one from returning to a male persona. Genital surgery is more or less irreversible.

 

[smeck]

Maybe he will generously donate some of the millions he is making from the change in gender TV shows.

 

[Nova]

Breast implants can be removed. But multiple facial feminization surgeries are not reversible.

True, but those never kept him from appearing to be male. He certainly looked odd to most of us, but we didn't automatically think "female".

 

[IndianSummer]

Caitlyn being a woman is not "what I think" - it's a fact. She identifies as a woman, and she should be treated as such.

Rightfully calling her 'her' is not a matter of opinion. you wouldn't call someone who identifies as a man she, would you?

You don't have to agree with her transition and you are not required to understand the science behind transgenderism, but the very least you can, and should, do is to refer to her with her name and the appropriate pronouns.

If HE committed a murder, that DNA is going to come back MALE.
Appropriate, exact science...THAT I understand.

JMO

 

[hopeandglory]

If HE committed a murder, that DNA is going to come back MALE.
Appropriate, exact science...THAT I understand.

JMO

Biological sex =/= gender identity.

 

[jjenny]

True, but those never kept him from appearing to be male. He certainly looked odd to most of us, but we didn't automatically think "female".

He's gotten a lot more surgeries recently.

 

[BritsKate]

As I have asked others, what qualifies you to hold this prejudice? I'd like to know specific degrees, postgraduate work, papers published, etc.

One of the biggest myths around is that transgenderism is caused by mental illness. The American Psychiatric Association dropped gender identity disorder from the DSM in 2012 - so no matter what opinion may be it isn't a recognized mental health disorder. It's been revised with gender dysphoria which is unique to the individual - it's used to address the subsequent fallout of being trans - like feeling an inordinate amount of distress. Unfortunately, transgenders are indeed at a greater risk for mental health issues (like depression, anxiety, suicidality and self-harm) though little wonder when faced with some of what they must endure on a day to day basis - this is, sadly, especially true for kids and teens.

I have to say, just to touch on the post you quoted, I have a major issue with words like kink and fetish thrown around when there are a whole lot of transgendered kids out there who need support and understanding. I doubt, hopefully, many 5 year olds are into kink. It so isn't a sexual thing. It's about feeling comfortable in one's own skin - nothing more, imo.

I'm not a psych myself so here are links to back this post up:
http://www.jahonline.org/pb/assets/...c=211496202.1.1420731307935&__hsfp=3192498595
https://www.nami.org/Find-Support/LGBTQ
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...onger-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/
http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/lgbt-mental-health
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria


And my favourite:
http://www.etonline.com/news/163373...of_transgender_kids_their_supportive_parents/

To dispel another myth while I'm here:

Myth: There are more male-to-female transgender
people than female-to-male transgender people.
Fact: There is no way to know how many
transgender people there are in the world, nor
how many people identify as male-to-female or
female-to-male. But even the best estimates show
little difference in the numbers of MTF or FTM
transgender people

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/ad29c8d9-829e-42eb-909b-a19c55826548.PDF

 

[Nova]

If HE committed a murder, that DNA is going to come back MALE.
Appropriate, exact science...THAT I understand.

JMO

The fact that you don't understand transexuality doesn't mean it isn't real.

I don't understand schizophrenia, manic-depression, sociopathy or pederasty. But I think we'll all agree they are very real conditions. (And, no, I am not comparing transexuality to criminal behaviors. I'm just saying there are many psychological conditions that laypersons don't really understand. That isn't really a guide to the veracity of such conditions.)

And while I'm on the subject, there are those who make similar claims about gay people, arguing that since I have the chromosome for maleness, I must "choose" to be gay. But only the most ignorant believe that nonsense nowadays. I suspect it won't be long before most people understand that transexuality is no more a "choice" than sexual orientation.

 

[Lulu14]

The fact that you don't understand transexuality doesn't mean it isn't real.

Doesn't mean it is not an illness either. Just like homosexuality, it is a failure to reproduce (not the case here, but you get the point). You know how some embryos have flaws so they are naturally eliminated by the mother? That's what these issues look like to me. An aberration that nature didn't catch on time, but that it would eliminate itself from the gene pool.

 

[Montjoy]

Doesn't mean it is not an illness either. Just like homosexuality, it is a failure to reproduce (not the case here, but you get the point). You know how some embryos have flaws so they are naturally eliminated by the mother? That's what these issues look like to me. An aberration that nature didn't catch on time, but that it would eliminate itself from the gene pool.

This odd eugenic theory ignores the fact that many homosexuals and transexuals (including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner) have children, so your point is moot.

 

[gitana1]

Bruce Jenner didn't let the population know about Transgender people, this issue has been known about for years. Bruce Jenner said on national TV “For all intents and purposes, I am a woman." What is his intent, for what purpose is he doing this? Why hasn’t he had his penis removed? I believe he’s waiting for his reality show to have that surgery done. money money money

A lot of trans persons are not getting genital surgery. Part of that may be that many do not define their gender by their genitalia, which remains under clothing and not apparent, usually. But a huge reason, I believe, is because the surgery is not advanced enough yet. For FTM persons, a very workable, functioning and realistic penis is not a possibility yet, for example.

The bottom line is that our dichotomous mind sets, our black and white thinking about gender and sexuality, really doesn't matter much to many people who are transitioning. The world is evolving. Thankfully. How we may feel about what makes a person a man or a woman just may not matter when it comes to someone else's life.

 

[Lulu14]

This odd eugenic theory ignores the fact that many homosexuals and transexuals (including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner) have children, so your point is moot.

Plenty don't, however. A lot of them adopt children, so they don't pass on their own genetic material. I think nature has a way of balancing itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of gender disorders increases to balance out the huge population growth.

 

[Montjoy]

This goes totally against genetic science. The risk of genetic anomalies increases the smaller, more endogamous, and isolated the communities/gene pools.

 

[Donjeta]

What was I thinking??? Lol
Sorry.
Yes Tootsie was a great movie. Even though I had it all mixed up in my sun/heat/tired/softball mom brain.

I don't insist on assigning a sexual identity to someone that makes him or her uncomfortable. It's not like I'm in his face insisting he's a man. I'm giving my opinion on a discussion board. Isn't that what we are here for?

I read his kids still call him Dad and his Mom still calls him Bruce. I doubt very seriously he gives a crap what a lady in Louisiana refers to him as. I think he would care more about how I feel about his heart. And like I've said numerous times, I've always admired Bruce Jenner. I think he's a great person. I don't care how he dresses or what he calls himself. I care more about how he treats others and the fact that he is a decent human being.

I'm not hardhearted at all.

I wish him the best in life. We all deserve happiness. My choice of pronouns will not change his life in the least.

Hope this clarifies.

JMO

I think of it this way: My choice of pronouns will not change Jenner's life in the least, she doesn't know that I exist. However, my choice of pronouns will not change MY life in the least either, so since it's not that important to me whether someone thousands of miles away that I don't know at all is a man or a woman, I might as well respect Caitlyn's wishes and go with what she prefers. She will not know anything about it but there might be someone transgendered reading for whom the sign of respect that is a minor effort to me might make a big difference

I don't consider it that important that the person's chromosomes are reflected in the pronouns and in fact in my first language they aren't