GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[winterrose]

Family dynamics have everything to do with who a person is, how they think and in trying to rationalize this horrendous tragedy should be looked into to see how or if it played a part. Not placing blame on one individual, but as a whole how could it have come to this point, or else there's nothing to base how a child could have become a murderer. If a child kills out of defense, or anger, you can try to see a possible motive, but in this instance we don't even know if Leila was awake, it was in her room and her mattress was taken.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, the 12-year-old killed his 8-year-old sister so that tells me there are damaging issues within this family. Nature v. Nuture. Was IF just born this way and absolutely nothing that happened in his life led to him being a killer? Did the murder happen in a vacuum?

It's not always environment, sometimes kids are born defective. Sometimes they're born with physical impairments and sometimes they're born with mental /learning or psychological deficits ....would it be okay to blame a parent if a child is born with autism? Of course not!
Sometimes they're just defective. I really don't understand the need to point fingers at this stage and blame the parents. does it provide some sort of false sense of security?


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[eileenhawkeye]

It's not always environment, sometimes kids are born defective. Sometimes they're born with physical impairments and sometimes they're born with mental /learning or psychological deficits ....would it be okay to blame a parent if a child is born with autism? Of course not!
Sometimes they're just defective. I really don't understand the need to point fingers at this stage and blame the parents. does it provide some sort of false sense of security?


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But even if IF was born a psychopath, why couldn't the family dynamics also played a part that led to the murder? Not everyone who is born with a anti-social mental disorder ends up committing murder.

And if IF was born a psychopath...why was he home alone with his sister? If he was born that way, he had to be showing signs well before the murder, right?

 

[winterrose]

This could be a matter of a child being born this way, however, the children have a sibling who killed thier other sibling, they all need counseling. I'm hoping none of them went into the house before LE got there, but even if they didn't and were at the scene outside, that is another whole traumatic issue that needs to be addressed with counselors.

 

[TheDuchess]

It's not always environment, sometimes kids are born defective. Sometimes they're born with physical impairments and sometimes they're born with mental /learning or psychological deficits ....would it be okay to blame a parent if a child is born with autism? Of course not!
Sometimes they're just defective. I really don't understand the need to point fingers at this stage and blame the parents. does it provide some sort of false sense of security?


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Well, as far as blaming someone for having "defective" children (really...defective???) of course not-but we do expect parents who have children with challenges to properly care for their children and to provide an environment that will keep them safe and of course, society safe from them.

But we have an unusual situation here-and like it or not-the parents do bare a responsibility for the safety of their children. But in this situation, you have one child dead, quite possibly at the hands of another one of the children in their care. I do not see any logical reason for NOT at least exploring the environment these two children existed in and how what happened came to pass.

Also-I don't understand what you are trying to say about the child being "defective." He is a child. Should we dispose of him like a broken stereo? You can't "send him back." I think that one of the greatest values we have in this country is how we aim to treat our children differently than we do adults.

 

[Shwalt00]

Yes - this would be considered sleuthing and bringing in innocent folks to the discussion and would not be allowed. We may be curious, but we don't need to know who these folks might be and we certainly don't need to put their names/identities in our threads where such information is searchable and lasts - well - maybe forever, kwim?

They are innocent, we don't need to bring public scrutiny upon their heads.

Thanks,

Salem

That made perfect sense! Thank you!!

 

[TheDuchess]

But even if IF was born a psychopath, why couldn't the family dynamics also played a part that led to the murder? Not everyone who is born with a anti-social mental disorder ends up committing murder.

And if IF was born a psychopath...why was he home alone with his sister? If he was born that way, he had to be showing signs well before the murder, right?

Unless nobody noticed the signs. :moo:

 

[Jhon]

Priscilla already said she wasn't allowed to see the kids since she wasn't paying any child support.

You do know that a custodial parent cannot withhold visitation of a child to a non-custodial parent because of failing to pay child support, don't you? Or to withhold support payments due to being denied vitiation? A call to the local police to report the failure of parent "A" to provide access to parent "B" (get it documented) and go back to court.

P****** may have said anything -- it doesn't make it so. Certainly not in the state of CA.

<modsnip>

 

[eileenhawkeye]

But even if IF was born a psychopath, why couldn't the family dynamics also played a part that led to the murder? Not everyone who is born with a anti-social mental disorder ends up committing murder.

And if IF was born a psychopath...why was he home alone with his sister? If he was born that way, he had to be showing signs well before the murder, right?

Unless nobody noticed the signs. :moo:

Yeah, I mean if he was just a bit odd you're not going to expect him to murder your other child. But if the animal mutilation allegations are true, well...

 

[TheDuchess]

Oh...and one more point....it doesn't sound like the family dynamic we are speaking about is anyone in particular's fault. I think there is a lot of responsibility to go around. I also don't think that the situation itself "caused" the murder, but could definitely come into play as a mitigating factor in the defense.

Honestly, I think Barney seems like a good father who obviously loves ALL of his children very much and has done the best that he can. I also think that Crystal loves ALL of the children as her own as well, and it is quite apparent that the children all support one another. So this isn't say there wasn't love and support inside this family, as the pictures from the vigil clearly show a family very close and loving. Just wanted to add that in.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Oh...and one more point....it doesn't sound like the family dynamic we are speaking about is anyone in particular's fault. I think there is a lot of responsibility to go around. I also don't think that the situation itself "caused" the murder, but could definitely come into play as a mitigating factor in the defense.

Honestly, I think Barney seems like a good father who obviously loves ALL of his children very much and has done the best that he can. I also think that Crystal loves ALL of the children as her own as well, and it is quite apparent that the children all support one another. So this isn't say there wasn't love and support inside this family, as the pictures from the vigil clearly show a family very close and loving. Just wanted to add that in.

But if the defense pleads not guilty...why would they even bring the family background up? If Leila was killed by an intruder, this is all irrelevant, right?

Unless IF is found guilty, and there's a penalty phase? Is there one in juvenile court? Would they tell the judge about IF's family dynamics after the judge rules that IF did it, but he has to think about the appropriate punishment?

 

[winterrose]

You do know that a custodial parent cannot withhold visitation of a child to a non-custodial parent because of failing to pay child support, don't you? Or to withhold support payments due to being denied vitiation? A call to the local police to report the failure of parent "A" to provide access to parent "B" (get it documented) and go back to court.

P****** may have said anything -- it doesn't make it so. Certainly not in the state of CA.



<modsnip>

I'm fully aware of divorce, custody and parental rights, thanks...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM:I will have to respectfully disagree with this. In the case where someone is only earning approximately $550 a month for disability, having to pay a quarter of an amount that you cannot even live on does not make sense. Especially when the children's other parent is capable of full time work, yet maybe doesn't. Sometimes the court only sees what is on paper, not the reality of a situation.

I have a friend (a good friend) who used to get all upset when her ex didn't send the child support. Her ex was a bozo, but he sent as much as he could and still be able to pay his own bills (he never totally slacked). My friend was now remarried and didn't even NEED the child support (her house was crammed full of "stuff", so there was at least plenty of money for that). Yet still, no matter how many times they went back to court he still had to pay the full amount of child support, even though he had less money than she did and his own new family to support. He was willing to take the kids full time, part time, whatever, to make up the difference in what he couldn't pay, but that wasn't good enough for my friend. She just wanted the money. And the court backed her.

So, I don't happen to agree that all parents need to pay child support to the parent raising the child, blindly. I think the courts need to look at the reality of the cases a little more closely.

And I respect your opinion.

However; the burden shouldn't be placed on one parent only. Whatever income is brought in by the non-custodial parent.... part of it should be given to the child/children who is/are being raised by the other parent.

I believe the court did have child support deductions taken out of the mother's check who is on SSI did they not? It is a law that child support payments are to be made and if they aren't then the parent can either land in jail or the government can take it out of funds the non-custodial parent may have. Even taking their income tax refund.

Usually 25% is the customary child deduction range unless the non-custodial parent has insurmountable wealth.

It is not about what the other parent is capable of doing or how much money they make. It is about a non-custodial parent meeting their responsibilities of helping to support their children. The gender of that non-custodial parent should be completely unbiased and irrelevant.

The non-custodial parent really has it so much easier than the custodial parent and IMO the least they can do is contribute financially to the wellbeing of their own children. They have no right to have the attitude that oh well the other parent doesn't need the money so why pay. All that does is become a petty matter between the parents when it should be about doing the right thing for the children.

So I still say if someone is going to bring children in this world then they need to step up and do the right thing and disregard the petty arguments between the two adults and concentrate on what is the most important issue and that is the children.

I fully believe that whoever is the non-custodial parent .....whether that is the father or the mother.... they have a responsibility to pay child support.

JMO

 

[winterrose]

http://fox40.com/2013/05/17/kidnapping-suspect-caught-thanks-to-tips/

They caught this suspect, thank goodness. When I heard about this man abducting the little girl, I was thinking he could have become a suspect in Leila's murder if IF hadn't been arrested.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

But even if IF was born a psychopath, why couldn't the family dynamics also played a part that led to the murder? Not everyone who is born with a anti-social mental disorder ends up committing murder.

And if IF was born a psychopath...why was he home alone with his sister? If he was born that way, he had to be showing signs well before the murder, right?

I really don't think any parent goes around thinking 'oh my child is a sociopath and he/she is capable of murdering someone.'

I don't know if his family dynamics had anything to do with him murdering Leila but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't. Not all sociopaths have a bad home life and even if so, millions of children come from a dysfunctional family yet never harm anyone.

And as you have stated most of them don't commit murder but go on to be highly successful due to being emotionless and having no compassion for others. They will climb their way to the top walking over everyone that gets in their way.

IMO

 

[danzn16]

Marking my spot.


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[Linda7NJ]

Well, as far as blaming someone for having "defective" children (really...defective???) of course not-but we do expect parents who have children with challenges to properly care for their children and to provide an environment that will keep them safe and of course, society safe from them.

But we have an unusual situation here-and like it or not-the parents do bare a responsibility for the safety of their children. But in this situation, you have one child dead, quite possibly at the hands of another one of the children in their care. I do not see any logical reason for NOT at least exploring the environment these two children existed in and how what happened came to pass.

Also-I don't understand what you are trying to say about the child being "defective." He is a child. Should we dispose of him like a broken stereo? You can't "send him back." I think that one of the greatest values we have in this country is how we aim to treat our children differently than we do adults.

It doesn't change the fact that no one here is in a position to "explore the environment" ... Wild speculation isn't productive. As of today, the rest of the family are victims.

I do not believe these parents would have knowingly left a murderous child at home with his younger sister. Do you?

Odds are, we will never know exactly what happened and we will never understand why.

IMO some children can not be rehabilitated. Should every effort be made to do so? Sure. But not at the risk or safety of society.




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[Linda7NJ]

Unless nobody noticed the signs. :moo:

And apparently everyone did miss them. He was still attending a regular public school.

Sometimes children can be very covert and stealthy.


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[Linda7NJ]

Yeah, I mean if he was just a bit odd you're not going to expect him to murder your other child. But if the animal mutilation allegations are true, well...

That's another huge if ...


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[eileenhawkeye]

And apparently every did miss them. He was still attending a regular public school.

Sometimes children can be very covert and stealthy.


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In his school handbook, it says any child who brings a knife to school will be expelled unless the principal deems that to be inappropriate. So the fact that IF was suspended for 5 days over the knife incident tells me that he couldn't have much of a record at his school.