Hazel
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Heartfelt Thank You :blowkiss: Salem and Fran :hug: .......... :gomods:
CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5
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No_Stone_Unturned
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First I was hooked on "young and close" but now this has me really intrigued:
Police need to go back and start again with the victim’s profile, he suggested. “If you know your victim, you know your murderer.”
And about the question above ^^^^ about life insurance policies - something tells me that within teachers' pensions is a built-in life insurance thing. I could very easily be wrong about that. Perhaps the retired teacher must have been paying extra whilst still teaching; I mean paying into the pension itself with extra for life insurance.:twocents:
Police need to go back and start again with the victim’s profile, he suggested. “If you know your victim, you know your murderer.”
And about the question above ^^^^ about life insurance policies - something tells me that within teachers' pensions is a built-in life insurance thing. I could very easily be wrong about that. Perhaps the retired teacher must have been paying extra whilst still teaching; I mean paying into the pension itself with extra for life insurance.:twocents:
I was curious about the DNA testing and wondered what those tests may or may not reveal. We all know that fur just does not want to go away, even after you vacume, brush and wash items that have been in contact with a dog or cat...
Perhaps any foreign fur, hair or flesh potentially ingested by the dogs,or still clinging to their crates, might "shed" light on who might be responsible for Audrey's murder.
No_Stone_Unturned
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I know what you mean dotr. I'm wondering WHY it's been so silent on the part of LE regarding AG and also SV and SL.:waitasec:
I understand that LE are not able to disclose too much, but a little update would be helpful to all citizens. Especially to women, I think.:twocents:
------------
ETA: PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS AS RE-VICTIMISING THE VICTIMS! :tyou:
Last night I was thinking about "knowing your victim and you'll know the murderer" type of thing. I'm wondering of AG (and perhaps SL and SV) were members of some type of 'anonymous' group. Like AA, NA, GA, etc. PK said that AG never had any prescription meds in her home - I wonder if she was unable to take meds due to a recovering situation. Could these women have met their murderers/attackers at a meeting?
Just thinking out loud here.......... Oh, and "Amazing Grace" is often a song folks in these groups turn to/feel at one with.
I understand that LE are not able to disclose too much, but a little update would be helpful to all citizens. Especially to women, I think.:twocents:
------------
ETA: PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS AS RE-VICTIMISING THE VICTIMS! :tyou:
Last night I was thinking about "knowing your victim and you'll know the murderer" type of thing. I'm wondering of AG (and perhaps SL and SV) were members of some type of 'anonymous' group. Like AA, NA, GA, etc. PK said that AG never had any prescription meds in her home - I wonder if she was unable to take meds due to a recovering situation. Could these women have met their murderers/attackers at a meeting?
Just thinking out loud here.......... Oh, and "Amazing Grace" is often a song folks in these groups turn to/feel at one with.
"Crime and Animal Genetics
An Emerging Science
http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/forensics.html
DNA testing has long been established as the foremost method for establishing relatedness and identity. More recently though, law enforcement has discovered that utilizing DNA testing procedures has revolutionized their ability to solve crimes, both to convict the guilty and exonerate the innocent. At first, the DNA tests considered for forensic use were strictly for detecting human DNA, however more recently, law enforcement has discovered that animal DNA testing procedures can also be used to solve crimes when evidence is found at the crime scene that is clearly not of human origin.
DNA Diagnostics, dba Shelterwood Laboratories was established in 1985 as an animal genetics laboratory. Since that time, we have worked to maintain the highest quality of genetic testing services. For many years now, we have operated a full service animal and human forensics laboratory with multi-species capabilities and platforms to perform both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA analysis. Some of the species such cases have involved are dogs, cats, horses, cattle, and deer.
Our laboratory utilized canine STRs in 1996 in a case which to our knowledge was the first criminal case using canine DNA in New Braunfels, Texas. Though the case never had to go to trial, the DNA STR evidence was admitted and the plea was established based on our laboratory report. Other cases have followed. Though several cases using animal STR testing have been tried in court, the latest technique to be admitted in criminal and civil cases is mitochondrial DNA testing in animals. When evidentiary samples are of poor quality or the evidence from the crime scene is shed hair without cellular material, mitochondrial DNA testing is now being utilized. In 1999, Shelterwood Laboratories analyzed evidentiary samples for one such case in Pampa, Texas. An admissibility hearing was held and the canine mitochondrial DNA analysis was admitted as evidence. To our knowledge, this was the first time this type of evidence was admitted. This case involved the attempted capital murder of a store clerk during a burglary. Though this case never went to trial due to a change in the prosecuting attorney, the admissibility hearing for the canine mitochondrial DNA evidence had already been held and the findings were allowed"
An Emerging Science
http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/forensics.html
DNA testing has long been established as the foremost method for establishing relatedness and identity. More recently though, law enforcement has discovered that utilizing DNA testing procedures has revolutionized their ability to solve crimes, both to convict the guilty and exonerate the innocent. At first, the DNA tests considered for forensic use were strictly for detecting human DNA, however more recently, law enforcement has discovered that animal DNA testing procedures can also be used to solve crimes when evidence is found at the crime scene that is clearly not of human origin.
DNA Diagnostics, dba Shelterwood Laboratories was established in 1985 as an animal genetics laboratory. Since that time, we have worked to maintain the highest quality of genetic testing services. For many years now, we have operated a full service animal and human forensics laboratory with multi-species capabilities and platforms to perform both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA analysis. Some of the species such cases have involved are dogs, cats, horses, cattle, and deer.
Our laboratory utilized canine STRs in 1996 in a case which to our knowledge was the first criminal case using canine DNA in New Braunfels, Texas. Though the case never had to go to trial, the DNA STR evidence was admitted and the plea was established based on our laboratory report. Other cases have followed. Though several cases using animal STR testing have been tried in court, the latest technique to be admitted in criminal and civil cases is mitochondrial DNA testing in animals. When evidentiary samples are of poor quality or the evidence from the crime scene is shed hair without cellular material, mitochondrial DNA testing is now being utilized. In 1999, Shelterwood Laboratories analyzed evidentiary samples for one such case in Pampa, Texas. An admissibility hearing was held and the canine mitochondrial DNA analysis was admitted as evidence. To our knowledge, this was the first time this type of evidence was admitted. This case involved the attempted capital murder of a store clerk during a burglary. Though this case never went to trial due to a change in the prosecuting attorney, the admissibility hearing for the canine mitochondrial DNA evidence had already been held and the findings were allowed"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8559319.stm
"According to the scientists, dog DNA profiling cannot provide "categorical proof" that a human was at the scene of the crime but it can provide "very strong evidence".
"For example, if it was someone's pet and if the pet has been in a place and has left hair or left saliva then linking that pet to the owner who may be a suspect can be very clear evidence," said Dr Ogden".
"According to the scientists, dog DNA profiling cannot provide "categorical proof" that a human was at the scene of the crime but it can provide "very strong evidence".
"For example, if it was someone's pet and if the pet has been in a place and has left hair or left saliva then linking that pet to the owner who may be a suspect can be very clear evidence," said Dr Ogden".
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-cover-stories/animal-forensics-lab-0707.aspx
During the investigation of a man who fled after attempting to sexually assault a woman working in her front yard in Iowa in 1999, it was a dog’s urine sample—not the man’s face—that identified him as the attacker.
Despite that the victim was unable to identify her attacker in a police line-up, she did remember the vehicle he drove—and the fact that her dog had urinated on one of his car tires.
A urine sample, taken from what was suspected to be the perpetrator’s car, was sent to Elizabeth Wictum, director of the forensic division of the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at the University of California, Davis, who confirmed the sample had come from the victim’s dog.
It was all the evidence needed to get a guilty plea from the attacker, and put him behind bars for two years"
During the investigation of a man who fled after attempting to sexually assault a woman working in her front yard in Iowa in 1999, it was a dog’s urine sample—not the man’s face—that identified him as the attacker.
Despite that the victim was unable to identify her attacker in a police line-up, she did remember the vehicle he drove—and the fact that her dog had urinated on one of his car tires.
A urine sample, taken from what was suspected to be the perpetrator’s car, was sent to Elizabeth Wictum, director of the forensic division of the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at the University of California, Davis, who confirmed the sample had come from the victim’s dog.
It was all the evidence needed to get a guilty plea from the attacker, and put him behind bars for two years"
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Victimology is not about blaming the victim. Rather, it is an integral part of forensic psychology where profiling is concerned. Moreover Victimology is what James Adcock was referring to when he said ( link ):
Police need to go back and start again with the victim’s profile, he suggested. “If you know your victim, you know your murderer.”
That said...
This is actually a good question. 12-step groups depend upon anonymity. They achieve this by going by first name, only. And some attendees use nicknames. Importantly, there are no records kept. And privacy is fiercely protected, ala "what is said here, remains here." Which means it would be tougher to link the victims. That is, it would be tougher to know not only if they attended 12-step meetings but even attended the same meeting. Still, afaik, Audrey wasn't religious, so that could be an argument against attending such groups. They are quite spiritualistic-centric. Though, they use "higher power" as opposed to "God." And many of the groups have adjusted the "higher power" bit to "higher power as you see it." This encourages people of different belief systems, and even those who do not believe, to work the program. Another possible argument against Audrey attending such a group is the amount of disclosure. The meetings generally encourage fairly extensive disclosure. And for all practical purposes, Audrey was a very private person. Even so, the anonymity could potentially provide her an outlet, without breaching her need for privacy. So... all things considered, I think the 12-step angle is def worth pursuing.
To reiterate, victimology is quite often crucial to solving crimes such as this. Which, btw, is why I began trying to piece together a victim profile when I started following this case ( link )
Just came across this and thought maybe there might be a link given the timing of re-opening this investigation.
http://www.trentonian.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3395126
"Cops looking for Chapman killer
Frankford woman murdered in 1984
By Emily Mountney/Trentonian
Posted 10 hours ago
The Quinte West OPP are revisiting another homicide case.
Frankford resident Barbara Champan was murdered in her home 27 years ago and her killer has never been caught.
Now, the Quinte West OPP is asking for the public's assistance to solve the case.
OPP spokesperson Sgt. Kristine Rae issued a press release Tuesday morning stating there is a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person responsible for the murder.
"Unsolved homicide investigations are always open," said Rae.
Chapman was murdered on Jan. 23, 1984. That morning, the woman put her children on the bus to go to school. Her 12-year-old daughter returned from school around 4 p.m. but was unable to locate her mother.
Chapman was found a short time later lying on the garage floor"
This link shows a pic. of the victim and guess who she reminds me of?
http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3395073
Good video showing garage ect.
http://www.ckwstv.com/index.cfm?page=news&id=6088
"
http://www.trentonian.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3395126
"Cops looking for Chapman killer
Frankford woman murdered in 1984
By Emily Mountney/Trentonian
Posted 10 hours ago
The Quinte West OPP are revisiting another homicide case.
Frankford resident Barbara Champan was murdered in her home 27 years ago and her killer has never been caught.
Now, the Quinte West OPP is asking for the public's assistance to solve the case.
OPP spokesperson Sgt. Kristine Rae issued a press release Tuesday morning stating there is a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person responsible for the murder.
"Unsolved homicide investigations are always open," said Rae.
Chapman was murdered on Jan. 23, 1984. That morning, the woman put her children on the bus to go to school. Her 12-year-old daughter returned from school around 4 p.m. but was unable to locate her mother.
Chapman was found a short time later lying on the garage floor"
This link shows a pic. of the victim and guess who she reminds me of?
http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3395073
Good video showing garage ect.
http://www.ckwstv.com/index.cfm?page=news&id=6088
"
roseofsharon
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Update re AG's property:
I took a much better look yesterday and they are tall pine trees in front of AG's home -- actually like a mini forest right in front of her home -- quite beautiful in fact with a dusting of snow yesterday. I felt so sad thinking about AG and how much she must have loved her home and its location and reflected upon what she must have been doing at this time last year with xmas approaching.
And yes NoStone -- upon taking a second look, oh my goodness, it would be so easy for someone to hide in these trees in the DAY or night. In fact, one could almost pitch a small tent and camp out amongst these pines without being noticed.
The trees sweep across the property close to the road and the home sits approx. 150 ft. back of the road.
It would be so easy for a perp to be on foot and get away via the trees on the property before stepping foot onto the road.
It also made me feel sad thinking about AG really not having a family member looking out for her. IMO, an elderly lady should really not have been living in that location alone. She was very vulnerable -- it's a crying shame.
imo
I took a much better look yesterday and they are tall pine trees in front of AG's home -- actually like a mini forest right in front of her home -- quite beautiful in fact with a dusting of snow yesterday. I felt so sad thinking about AG and how much she must have loved her home and its location and reflected upon what she must have been doing at this time last year with xmas approaching.
And yes NoStone -- upon taking a second look, oh my goodness, it would be so easy for someone to hide in these trees in the DAY or night. In fact, one could almost pitch a small tent and camp out amongst these pines without being noticed.
The trees sweep across the property close to the road and the home sits approx. 150 ft. back of the road.
It would be so easy for a perp to be on foot and get away via the trees on the property before stepping foot onto the road.
It also made me feel sad thinking about AG really not having a family member looking out for her. IMO, an elderly lady should really not have been living in that location alone. She was very vulnerable -- it's a crying shame.
imo
No_Stone_Unturned
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OMG roseofsharon this is getting sadder by the day. AG's house and surroundings must have been a Canadian winter wonderland.
Yesterday, I had to drive around Ontario a lot and I got on the road at 6.30 am. The thing I noticed was how DARK it remains in the mornings. I kept looking at the clock thinking of AG's killer. He would have had until at least 7.30 am or more before the sunrise in order to get away.
This is sooo sad.........
LE simply has to get this guy.......:twocents:
Yesterday, I had to drive around Ontario a lot and I got on the road at 6.30 am. The thing I noticed was how DARK it remains in the mornings. I kept looking at the clock thinking of AG's killer. He would have had until at least 7.30 am or more before the sunrise in order to get away.
This is sooo sad.........
LE simply has to get this guy.......:twocents:
roseofsharon
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Maybe I watch too many crime shows, but something has always come to my mind regarding AG's murder.
I would like to know if toxicology is a routine test during an autopsy or would the cause of death have been ruled the stabbing due to the obvious trauma.
Sometimes, I wonder if someone was slowly poisoning AG, thus it may have been the reason she was under the weather during xmas and when the killer realized it wasn't working fast enough, he finished the job. Maybe went to her home that day expecting to find her succumbed.
I really don't think AG should have been cremated so quickly!! I don't believe anyone who is the victim of a murder should be, especially when the killer has not been found.
Like I said, I might be watching too many crime shows.
Just IMO
imo
I would like to know if toxicology is a routine test during an autopsy or would the cause of death have been ruled the stabbing due to the obvious trauma.
Sometimes, I wonder if someone was slowly poisoning AG, thus it may have been the reason she was under the weather during xmas and when the killer realized it wasn't working fast enough, he finished the job. Maybe went to her home that day expecting to find her succumbed.
I really don't think AG should have been cremated so quickly!! I don't believe anyone who is the victim of a murder should be, especially when the killer has not been found.
Like I said, I might be watching too many crime shows.
Just IMO
imo
No_Stone_Unturned
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Wait, I'm confused! Was AG cremated without LE having many tests done on the body? Shouldn't there be a law that in an "horrific crime" all testing possible must be done? That's just plain wrong!
I read crime books incessantly and I recently read one by Canadian writer Gail Bowen where a woman was feeling unwell due to slow poisoning. I'd have thought tests would have been done on AG.
I wonder if PK specifically told LE that AG had been feeling unwell?
I read crime books incessantly and I recently read one by Canadian writer Gail Bowen where a woman was feeling unwell due to slow poisoning. I'd have thought tests would have been done on AG.
I wonder if PK specifically told LE that AG had been feeling unwell?
roseofsharon
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In AG's obit, reference is made to her passing on Dec. 30 and the funeral service was held Jan. 5, but cremation had already taken place. Hopefully, samples were sent away, but LE would probably hold this information really tight.
No_Stone_Unturned
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Been thinking of AG a lot this week.
More questions:
1. What about DNA? Do LE have DNA from the crime scene?
2. When PK returned to the body as per the request from 911, did he touch AG? I mean, did 911 ask him to look for a pulse? If so, wouldn't he have somehow messed with the crime scene?
3. Where did the cake end up? Did LE take it? (Back to the poisoning idea!) :cupcake:
Getting frustrated at the endless silence on the part of LE.......:twocents:
-----------
ETA: I just went back and did some reading. Apparently LE does have DNA because it was a non match that helped free DLS.
So, what kinds of DNA do they have and does it match with anyone we've been told about?
--------------
OT: I just watched on CP24 a news cast about the Port Lands murder victim. Apparently LE now have evidence but they're not talking!
From Twitter:
CP24 CP24
Toronto police believe Leanne Freeman, found in the Port Lands last month, was killed by someone she knew. http://bit.ly/ryXK0w
More questions:
1. What about DNA? Do LE have DNA from the crime scene?
2. When PK returned to the body as per the request from 911, did he touch AG? I mean, did 911 ask him to look for a pulse? If so, wouldn't he have somehow messed with the crime scene?
3. Where did the cake end up? Did LE take it? (Back to the poisoning idea!) :cupcake:
Getting frustrated at the endless silence on the part of LE.......:twocents:
-----------
ETA: I just went back and did some reading. Apparently LE does have DNA because it was a non match that helped free DLS.
So, what kinds of DNA do they have and does it match with anyone we've been told about?
--------------
OT: I just watched on CP24 a news cast about the Port Lands murder victim. Apparently LE now have evidence but they're not talking!
From Twitter:
CP24 CP24
Toronto police believe Leanne Freeman, found in the Port Lands last month, was killed by someone she knew. http://bit.ly/ryXK0w
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I've often wondered when AG last had that "spaghetti that she loved to death".
No_Stone_Unturned
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I've been thinking about that manner of phrasing and especially listening when the TV/radio is on. People DO say things like - "Oh, I love my husband to death"; "I bought him a gift and I know he'll love it to death".
I'm not certain there's much we can read into common phraseology. Is there? :doughboy:
Also posted in the Kera F thread, a 2009 article concerning brutal attacks on sex workers in Hamilton and wondering if this guy was caught, or if he moved on to other vulnerable women in society...
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/110451--killer-targeting-sex-trade-workers
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/110451--killer-targeting-sex-trade-workers
roseofsharon
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Do we know if AG's car was parked inside the garage facing forward or backed in?
When looking at the picture of the garage, is it our left side that would be the location of the entrance from the garage into the house?
Was it reported that the garage was full of hoarded things. Did AG park the vehicle on one side of the garage or in the middle due to all these things.
Was there any mud/wetness on the tires when PK found AG?
What side of the vehicle was AG found?
Thanks.
When looking at the picture of the garage, is it our left side that would be the location of the entrance from the garage into the house?
Was it reported that the garage was full of hoarded things. Did AG park the vehicle on one side of the garage or in the middle due to all these things.
Was there any mud/wetness on the tires when PK found AG?
What side of the vehicle was AG found?
Thanks.
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