CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #7

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Assuming for a moment that AG's car was targeted, can we be sure it was not because she had listed it for sale on kijiji, which seems to be the common thread in the TB / stolen Harley cases? I think it would be highly unlikely she was intending to sell her Camaro, given that it was quite new and dear to AG's heart.

So, in that respect, AG's case differs from TB's.

However, it may be that the car was just seen, admired, and followed home - which takes us back to a very early theory that she was surprised as she exited her vehicle, having just pulled into the garage so that the overhead door was still up. But - in this scenario, the perp(s) would have had access to the proper key, even if she initially resisted - and presumably, would have easily driven away in her car. So, that theory falls apart IMO.

Another theory would be that she was in the house, heard commotion in the garage, threw on her coat and went out to investigate, only to find the perp(s) had broken in to the garage and were trying to hotwire the vehicle - a scuffle ensued, AG was killed and the perps could not get into the house to get the keys due to the dogs and could not get the car to start due to the immobilizer. But in this scenario, I think that AG would have taken her dogs out with her as protection, wouldn't she?

So, what about a scenario where AG went outdoors to have a cigarette, sitting on her bench with the overhead garage door open... a vehicle pulls into her driveway, perps get out, she realizes they are up to no good & makes for door into the house but they catch her. AG is killed, perps can't enter house for keys due to dogs, so they try to hotwire car unsuccessfully due to immobilizer - they panic due to dog's barking which may draw attention of neighbours and they know that they can't explain away AG's dead body, so they take off, shutting the garage door on the way out to 'hide' the scene from any neighbours who may check into why the dogs are barking. Car would not be locked because it was in garage, so no alarms. When body is discovered, LE find evidence of tampering with car ignition/wiring and seize it as evidence. Are there 'holes' in this scenario, too?
 
Quoted from roseofsharon:

<<< After reading the news this a.m. regarding an expensive Harley Davidson being found in DM's hanger, along with other vehicles, I do believe the motive for AG's murder was her vehicle. >>>



There's a lot coming out about DM. I missed the Harley bit but I did read this morning that there was blood all over one of his boats.

I pray that LE are including Audrey in their investigations of DM.:please:
 
Quoted from GT:

<<< Another theory would be that she was in the house, heard commotion in the garage, threw on her coat and went out to investigate, only to find the perp(s) had broken in to the garage and were trying to hotwire the vehicle >>>

Sorry to rain on our parade here but LE said there was no forced entry. Wouldn't that include the garage door?

:twocents:

BUT.....I do feel that we're getting somewhere here in our collective trains of thought!! :)
 
Quoted again from GT:

<<< Car would not be locked because it was in garage, so no alarms. When body is discovered, LE find evidence of tampering with car ignition/wiring and seize it as evidence. Are there 'holes' in this scenario, too? >>>


The ONLY thing I can add to this excellent theory is that wouldn't Audrey be as paranoid as I am about her car. Wouldn't she LOCK the car? If my car was parked in my bedroom while I sleep.....I'd still lock the doors out of habit from my paranoia and love of the car!!

:twocents:
 
Do any of you recall discussion far back in earlier threads about AG's car/repair shops/etc? I cannot recall the details but IIRC some sleuthers were following up on something related to the possible servicing of the Camaro, may have been related to PK's connections?
 
No_Stone_Unturned said:
Quoted again from GT:

<<< Car would not be locked because it was in garage, so no alarms. When body is discovered, LE find evidence of tampering with car ignition/wiring and seize it as evidence. Are there 'holes' in this scenario, too? >>>


The ONLY thing I can add to this excellent theory is that wouldn't Audrey be as paranoid as I am about her car. Wouldn't she LOCK the car? If my car was parked in my bedroom while I sleep.....I'd still lock the doors out of habit from my paranoia and love of the car!!

:twocents:
Click to expand...

I don't know! I don't lock my car when it's in my locked garage... but maybe most people do?
 
Yeah, but sports car owners tend to be paranoid (in a good way) about their cars. My mechanic even draws a line in chalk to put my driver's seat back in place after the tall service guy drives it!! :floorlaugh:


:rockon:
 
roseofsharon said:
OMG!!! This is just disgusting and so scary.

I must share my own experience about three weeks ago in Halton.

My husband and I stopped at a yard sale. The street had a grassy boulevard dividing the street with intermittant spaces for cars to turn into the other side of the boulevard.

When we left the yard sale to return to our vehicle, a car turned into exit only side of the street. There were two occupants in the vehicle, an older female, (could have been mother) and a male occupant in his late 20's, early 30's.

The female appeared confused, as she realized she was on the wrong side of the road and turned into one of the spaces, but now was exiting the street on the entrance side.

As we approached the main road, the male passenger gave us the finger. Why?, we don't know, as we had not said a word at that point.

My husband very nicely told them they were on the wrong side of the road. With that, the male passenger hollered that he had already told her and called my husband a f------ p----!

The woman shouted out the passenger window for us to mind our own damn business.

So, this is the mentality out there when you are trying to help someone.

By being on the wrong side of the road, had a car turned into the entrance side of the road and not expected a car to be there, there could have been an accident, but it was our fault for trying to help.

What a world!!!
Click to expand...

Arrest made!

http://www.680news.com/2013/05/30/acton-man-accused-of-assaulting-senior-arrested/
"Police arrested Allen Snels Thursday. He is charged with assault and remains in custody for a bail hearing"
 
If A's purse was in the house, undisturbed, with nothing touched, yet she had her shoes and coat on and was in her garage, I am wondering if she was NOT coming home, or Going out. Was someone there... a previous student, a neighbour, someone who was interested in LOOKING at the car, but whom she thought was of no threat to her. Women don't go far without their purse. Information did not say she had gotten groceries and was unloading them etc... taking her purse and a couple bags into the house, and going back to the car for more. Would this be a murder where someone was spooked enough to murder the lady, and leave without taking what they came for?? If they couldn't get car started, they would HAVE to give up at some point. dogs barking add a sense of urgency also. I don't think A would use dogs for protection or put them in harms way.. they were her family, and her children. Also, if I am going for a cigarette in my attached garage in the winter, I would probably wear my slippers rather than my shoes, unless she wore shoes in the house on a regular basis. I would not be wearing slippers if I had company.
 
greenthumb said:
Do any of you recall discussion far back in earlier threads about AG's car/repair shops/etc? I cannot recall the details but IIRC some sleuthers were following up on something related to the possible servicing of the Camaro, may have been related to PK's connections?
Click to expand...

I don't believe we ever found out where Audrey had her car serviced.

Jumping off your post tho ...

I recall that Audrey met PK when he worked in a small engine shop, but they weren't automotive engines.

Could all be strange coinkydinks .. PK's bro owned BCM which was to do with custom manufacturing related to the automotive market. The BCM website, apparently registered by PK, has an address (MK's residence i believe) that is approx. midway between AG's and TB's. He also worked at a high-end automotive/automation/robotics type company that is located in behind the Ancaster Fairgrounds which are just a bit north on Trinity from where the Bosma residence is.
 
The Bosma residence is at 1230 Trinity Rd S, just south of Book Rd W.

Dudley Collins veterinary practice was at 330 Book Rd E. IF Audrey drove west on Book Rd after leaving the vets to return home, it is about 6.5 kms / 8 mins to where Book Rd and Trinity Rd intersect just north of the Bosma residence. Of course, we still don't know when she was in fact at the vets, or what route she took home.
 
Oh, and also FWIW - this is the FIRST time in all these years that I'm doubting Audrey's killer was also the killer of SV and the attacker of SL.

:scared:
 
greenthumb said:
Assuming for a moment that AG's car was targeted, can we be sure it was not because she had listed it for sale on kijiji, which seems to be the common thread in the TB / stolen Harley cases? I think it would be highly unlikely she was intending to sell her Camaro, given that it was quite new and dear to AG's heart.

So, in that respect, AG's case differs from TB's.

However, it may be that the car was just seen, admired, and followed home - which takes us back to a very early theory that she was surprised as she exited her vehicle, having just pulled into the garage so that the overhead door was still up. But - in this scenario, the perp(s) would have had access to the proper key, even if she initially resisted - and presumably, would have easily driven away in her car. So, that theory falls apart IMO.

Another theory would be that she was in the house, heard commotion in the garage, threw on her coat and went out to investigate, only to find the perp(s) had broken in to the garage and were trying to hotwire the vehicle - a scuffle ensued, AG was killed and the perps could not get into the house to get the keys due to the dogs and could not get the car to start due to the immobilizer. But in this scenario, I think that AG would have taken her dogs out with her as protection, wouldn't she?

So, what about a scenario where AG went outdoors to have a cigarette, sitting on her bench with the overhead garage door open... a vehicle pulls into her driveway, perps get out, she realizes they are up to no good & makes for door into the house but they catch her. AG is killed, perps can't enter house for keys due to dogs, so they try to hotwire car unsuccessfully due to immobilizer - they panic due to dog's barking which may draw attention of neighbours and they know that they can't explain away AG's dead body, so they take off, shutting the garage door on the way out to 'hide' the scene from any neighbours who may check into why the dogs are barking. Car would not be locked because it was in garage, so no alarms. When body is discovered, LE find evidence of tampering with car ignition/wiring and seize it as evidence. Are there 'holes' in this scenario, too?
Click to expand...

BBM

Lot's of great discussion here.
I would be surprised if AG listed her Camaro on kijiji too. But I wouldn't be surprised if, after a 'significant fail' in attempt that the perps started to take a different approach, i.e. getting the target vehicles away from the house?

I might have to come up with a map showing new, possibly relevant locations, including Kawasaki Robotics. Hmmmmm...

Regarding the various scenarios that greenthumb outlined above, I am stuck on why, if it was random car thieves, they would have bothered to close the garage door when they took off. The only reason this would make sense to me is if a cover up story was needed because someone she knew was involved. That would then 'remove' that person from the scenario.

Regarding the collision experts, is it possible that a major struggle ensued in the garage and things crashed against the Camaro (Audrey's head? an axe?) and LE wanted to determine if the dent/damage was caused by a struggle or by a 'staged accident' after which the accident perp followed her home?
 
:nono: No sleuthing non-suspects.

:peace:
 
Snoopster said:
BBM
Regarding the various scenarios that greenthumb outlined above, I am stuck on why, if it was random car thieves, they would have bothered to close the garage door when they took off. The only reason this would make sense to me is if a cover up story was needed because someone she knew was involved. That would then 'remove' that person from the scenario.
Click to expand...

RSBM

Actually, why did 'whoever' killed AG shut the garage door when they took off? Maybe just to hide what they had done? And possibly to delay the discovery of the body... anyone just dropping in for a visit would likely go to the door, and leave when AG did not answer. It was only because PK had the garage door code and that was his usual mode of entry that AG's murder was discovered so quickly, right?

And maybe as likely that random car thieves close the garage door as anyone else who may have killed her?

MOO
 
Thoughts:

PK didn't say anything about her car being smashed or tampered with. BUT, that could be hold-back by LE.

We only saw LE taking the car out from the garage ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE. I found that odd right off the bat. Did LE TELL photographers to not take pics of the passenger side?

All along - can't explain why - I've always had the picture in my mind that PK found the body on the passenger side of the car.

Assuming the CAR was the motive ( a` la TB) I still have questions:

Why not just bully Audrey into handing over the keys?

Why not threaten to kill her dogs if she refused to hand over the keys? (If someone threatened my husband or our birds I would hand over the keys to my 'Vette.)

HOW did the killer(s) even know this woman owned a highly prized car? Followed? Seen about town? Learned from the dealership?

I highly doubt Audrey advertised on the web - BUT, she might have been a member of the local Camaro club. I'm a member of the 'Vette club.

Way back when, did Audrey join the Camaro owners who protested when it was said that Paul Bernardo drove a Camaro when he grabbed KF? Is there a picture of her somewhere in a Camaro in that protest?

How did the killer(s) know that the car was owned by a 'little old lady' rather than a 300 pound gang member?

So many questions especially now in light of the Ancaster/car/DM connection. Or, seeming connection.....

:twocents:
 
Right LeftCoaster, it is weird, here is the sentence from your link:

About 20 officers, including the collision reconstruction and canine units, hit the ground around Gleave's house Friday searching for any clues that would lead them to the killer or killers.

Maybe there was some damage to her car.
 
The "collision reconstruction team" is freaking me out.

Scenario:

Audrey was out in her car and she was followed/cornered/tried to drive away. Somehow, she did get away and drove fast to her garage. But she was followed and more collisions happened. She parked the car, got out and before she could close the garage door she was killed.

Could THAT be the reason why we only see the passenger side of her car? OR, did another car FOLLOW her car right into the garage slamming the car into the front of the garage and pinning her inside the car?

My mind is racing (pun intended after the fact).

:eek:
 
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