CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

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Snively - there is no evidence EB was put into her car with a wound anywhere on her body - there isn't any conclusive evidence a body was put into EB's car - only smears that denote a body was dragged in. But not out. No one can quibble over anything regarding a wound or a weapon - with all due respect you are making up the same scenario RnR did.

Trust most readers realize you want to hang onto that thought already. Can you tell us anything conclusive or definitive about the ATM transaction?
 
Only the Crown and LE insist EB was placed in her car after death.

You are correct; and nothing the prove that another car wasn't used as well although RB's was impounded and searched at the CFS. They found nothing.

This is why I'm asking who is right? People seem to be following LE theory of death on 19 - 21 June 1990 with no evidence.

I think that there certainly is circumstantial evidence that EB was killed in that time frame but not definitive proof; the fact that she never went to class and that one would have expected her to. The fact LE believe or believed there was evidence that RB killed her and he certainly would have had to kill her during that time frame.

There had to be a report in order for CFS to have a meeting with Raybould (unsure if Reesor was there) stating the outcome of CFS findings after testing - and what testing they performed to arrive at their findings. Imo, Crown Attorney McMahon had a copy of this report at one time or another and was required to disclose it to the defense.

The meeting notes are the report; the meeting was convened only to float the "car moved Friday theory" that LE had never really considered until DD came forward; the CFS told Raybould it couldn't have happened that way at all. LE were so desperate that even after being told the theory didn't work they subsequently went out to find a witness who they had spoken to at the time the car was found and LE got this person to suddenly remember that the car was missing from Three 'R' Autobody at 11:00 PM Thursday night - to help support DD - but LE forgot that RB was at a police station being questioned from 9:30 PM -1:30 PM so he couldn't have been driving it at 11:00 PM anyway.

Reesor wasn't there at the CFS and there is no reference to it in his notes; however, he and Raybould discussed everything and they prepared their will-says for RB's bail hearing together on the weekend of November 23-24th so IMO zero chance Raybould didn't share the findings with Reesor although no proof. There is also no evidence that Raybould shared it with the Crown at RB's trial in 1992 but he certainly had an obligation to do so. There is some evidence that Raybould shared the information with the Crown for RB's appeal via a phone call - particularly re speaking to experts about decomposition - and that Crown definitely did not disclose it to RB's appeal lawyers; had he, RB would have almost certainly been acquitted by the COA given that the COA wrote in their decision that if the car moved on Wednesday and not Friday - and the CFS evidence says it had to move Wednesday if EB was killed on Tuesday night - RB couldn't have been driving it. My advice is to try to get hold of the amended statement of claim as it is available upon request at the Toronto courthouse and will explain the CFS dynamics.
 
I think that there certainly is circumstantial evidence that EB was killed in that time frame but not definitive proof; the fact that she never went to class and that one would have expected her to. The fact LE believe or believed there was evidence that RB killed her and he certainly would have had to kill her during that time frame.

With all due respect not attending a class is not circumstantial proof of anything. What RnR believed at that time does not back up the lack of circumstantial proof.



The meeting notes are the report; the meeting was convened only to float the "car moved Friday theory" that LE had never really considered until DD came forward; the CFS told Raybould it couldn't have happened that way at all. LE were so desperate that even after being told the theory didn't work they subsequently went out to find a witness who said the car was missing from Three 'R' Autobody at 11:00 PM - to help support DD - and they forgot that RB was at the police station being questioned from 9:30 - 1:30 PM so he couldn't have been driving it at 11 PM

There is no way under the sun CFS did not have any notes on their findings of the car. With all due respect, imo, you appear, to be wavering and giving credence to McMahon knew nothing of the forensics when he went to trial. You will no doubt get followers and believers here - I'm just not one of them.


Reesor wasn't there and there is no reference to it in his notes; however, he and Raybould discussed everything and they prepared there will-says for RB's bail hearing together on the weekend of the November 23-24th so IMO zero chance Raybould didn't share the findings with Reesor although no proof. There is also no evidence that Raybould shared it with the Crown at RB's trial in 1992 but he certainly had an obligation to do so. There is some evidence that Raybould shared the information with the Crown for RB's appeal via phone call - particularly re speaking to experts about decomposition - and that Crown definitely did not disclose it to RB's appeal lawyers; had he, RB would have been acquitted by the COA given that the COA wrote in their decision that if the car moved on Wednesday and not Friday - as the CFS evidence requires if EB was killed on Tuesday night - RB couldn't have been driving it. My advice is to try to get hold of the amended statement of claim as it is available upon request at the Toronto courthouse and will explain the CFS dynamics.

More scrambling to protect McMahon, imo.

Answers embedded in quote.
 
A wound can be wrapped up no matter where it is. It's pointless to quibble over where the wound was without a body. Everybody can only guess what weapon was used. Was she stabbed, shot, hit with a rock or a pipe, or just fell and hit her head? Even a gunshot wound can be patched up with a simple tampon and compression from something tied tightly around. A plastic bag from a grocery store or a garbage bag whether slipped over of ripped in half and taped on makes a difference.

I agree with everything here; there is no proof or even evidence as to how EB was killed/died but only that she bled. The "killed by a rock" nonsense first broadcast by CTV and CFTO was likely a planted story to get people thinking homicide instead of voluntary disappearance; otherwise, people might keep calling police in reporting EB alive at various times and places after she went missing which would be bad news for LE given that they'd already committed to arresting RB evidence or not.
 
I agree with everything here; there is no proof or even evidence as to how EB was killed/died but only that she bled. The "killed by a rock" nonsense first broadcast by CTV and CFTO was likely a planted story to get people thinking homicide instead of voluntary disappearance; otherwise, people might keep calling police in reporting EB alive at various times and places after she went missing which would be bad news for LE given that they'd already committed to arresting RB evidence or not.

At the time of trial, possibly much beyond, there was/is no proof that EB bled in the car or that it was her blood in the car. The results of a test to prove that are sorely missing.
 
There is no way under the sun CFS did not have any notes on their findings of the car. With all due respect, imo, you appear, to be wavering and giving credence to McMahon knew nothing of the forensics when he went to trial. You will no doubt get followers and believers here - I'm just not one of them.

They absolutely had notes on their findings in the car and I wasn't suggesting otherwise; I only mean that the note is the only extant evidence at this point is Raybould's note; it may be that as a result of further investigation additional CFS materials, reports, etc. will be found but I think they would have been included in the amended statement of claim along with everything else and as of right now the note is all there is.

McMahon is a snake and knew RB went to class and kept it quiet but there simply is no proof he knew about the CFS meeting. Is their evidence he knew about it? Well, Raybould did reference it in his memobook and McMahon should have read through the memobook but sadly, he testified in his examination in 2004 that he never read through the police officer's memobooks so there you go; believe him or not, the fact is at this point there is only suspicion, no evidence or proof. I'd be the first the celebrate if there were evidence contradicting me.
 
It's not just the Nov 1990 meeting in question here - the one where CFS told Raybould his theory had no merit - to narrow the scope to the question did McMahon know about that meeting is to offer him a teflon suit in all this. Something everyone is doing so far, imo.

Using process of elimination and common sense among other things, yes McMahon absolutely knew every bit of the forensics going into trial. He wanted to risk being blind sided by the defense with info he chose to know nothing about?

Evidence McMahon knew about the forensics and any meetings regarding the forensics? Everyone is doing their best to side-step, deflect and pretend he didn't, imo. Count another flop for Ontario justice.
 
So right and wrong doesn't enter into an equation for him?

Oh hell no, the system isn't about right and wrong woodland. They want us to believe that but that's a fantasy.
For ppl like McMahon it's only about the conviction . Once the crown accepts to try a case, that's it, they are balls deep committed.
Look at Anthony haynmayer, his public defenders told him the best thing to do is plead guilty. Going to court you risk many more years than pleading guilty and taking the lessor sentence. It's not about guilt or innocence. I believe Lockyer or someone found info looking through Bernardo files that showed Bernardo confessed to the very attack Anthony claimed he was innocent of but was talked Into pleading guilty.
Happens far more than you would think.
 
At the time of trial, possibly much beyond, there was/is no proof that EB bled in the car or that it was her blood in the car. The results of a test to prove that are sorely missing.

It has to be her blood; the reverse paternity was accepted in court at the time of trial and presented by Dr. Pamela Newell from the CFS and no one for ether the defence or the Crown has ever serious questioned that it was EB's blood; I agree that it doesn't prove that EB is dead but it is so likely as to make alternative explanation unlikely. Now I agree that to an extent it wasn't so much that the police thought that RB killed her because she was dead; it may have been more that she was dead because RB killed her. But what scenarios are you considering WS other than EB being murdered and/or dead?
 
At the time of trial, possibly much beyond, there was/is no proof that EB bled in the car or that it was her blood in the car. The results of a test to prove that are sorely missing.

I recall reading somewhere that "it wasn't CB's, " therefore the conclusion is that it was EB's.
No DNA test can be done to 100% prove it was EB's blood without a body to match it too.
EB's and her car are missing, car is found EB is still missing, there's blood found
in her car that is tested to be that of a female offspring of mr and mrs Bain, parents of said missing girl, and the blood is not that of her only sister.
Process of elimination and common sense.

(Uh oh here comes a chuckles zinger)
 
With all due respect, we are blurring forensic proof with assumption.

I know P Newell did the reverse paternity test - showing that the blood in the rear of the Tercel was from a female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain. There are 2 known female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain.
With all due respect to Ms Newell - she did know any more than anyone else at CFS that the optimum way to store samples for future DNA and other forensic testing was in a refrigerator. She is not named specifically in the Kaufman Report for this downfall, but she did work there as an 'expert'.

Sister C Bain did say she did not bleed in EB's car. I believe her, however the blood did not have to solely come from someone bleeding. It's 'fishy', imo, that there are no exit smears denoting a body pulled from the car to match the smears that denote a body was dragged in the car.

I get it was accepted by the courts to be EB's blood. I get no one questioned it at the time. I think that is a shame. I think CFS could have gone a step further at some point in time, by getting a DNA profile from the blood in the car and comparing it to sister C. They should be similar and not the same. That would be forensic proof that the blood belonged to EB - the known 2 female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain.

It would be simple even now - if any of the blood from the car is available for testing.

Have no clue when EB actually died, or if she has yet. I do think the freshness of the blood on 22 June 1990 is saying she was alive around the time the sun came up that morning though.
 
Here's an interesting article that adds credence to my theory that EB might very well have been spending time with another man - the man who called one week before she went missing, the man who EB was with at the Silver Dragon restaurant a couple of weeks before - and the same man she might have met in the valley, drove out of the valley with, and was killed by when she explained that she actually had a boyfriend and the same mystery man who drove her car to get rid of the body; and, a man who EB decided to leave out of her diary in the weeks leading up to her disappearance.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/sex-relationships/relationships/nearly-half-women-relationships-plan-4323872


If RB's friends are to be believed , he had begun to exhibit some frustration in the relationship with EB due to what he perceived as EB's obsession with alternative medicine and, by EB's own admission, her moodiness; he issued her an ultimatum several weeks before EB went missing to dump holistic medicine or he would walk, hardly the action of a jealous, possessive man. I pause to note that LE played the jealous, possessive angle but a closer look at the diary reveals that not once did EB ever claim he was jealous, possessive or controlling or that she feared him; that came from family members who were poisoned by the police and even then CB initially told the police that she wasn't even close to her sister and that as far as she knew everything with RB was okay; AC said the same thing and NS never once alluded to EB complaining about RB and all would have been the logical sounding boards. We also know that the "Dear John" letter turned out to be a diary entry from 1988 chronicling the time period when EB and RB met and even though EB was in a relationship with another guy at the time she met RB she deliberately tried to engender romantic feelings in him and admitted this in her diary entry; maybe not that much of a surprise that Raybould and the Crown hid that.

My point is that if EB sensed that RB was about to cut the cord it wouldn't be unusual for her or any beautiful woman to either have another guy waiting in the wings a la EG#2, who ironically EB's mother originally asked police to check out by sending a cruiser over to his house the morning after EB went missing; of course, she waited until RB was out of the house before she mentioned that to the police and it never surfaced until 2004.

"Slightly more than four in ten said they had got to know the man whilst they were with their partner, while a similar percentage said he was ‘on the scene’ long before."


During the trial it was disclosed that EB was dating both RB and another man, MF, during the summer of 1989; ironically diary entries from that time period were submitted to the CFS for testing and LE has never disclosed their whereabouts since. They would likely show that EB was essentially dating both RB and MS but MS testified so we know quite a bit about their relationship. MS graduated from a university in California in the Spring of 1989 and invited EB to his graduation, an odd thing to do for a man who would have known that EB was in an exclusive relationship with another man by that time, unless of course EB had kept in touch. MS testified at trial that he and EB had dated in the summer of 1989 and had no inkling whatsoever that there might have been someone else in the picture; as it turns out, EB was dating RB and MS was so stunned and in a state of disbelief when EB called him in early July to tell him she had begun seeing RB and she wished to be with him instead of MS that MS drove over to her home and told her he needed her to tell him face to face before she could accept it. When she did exactly that he dropped the birthday card she had given him weeks before at her feet and walked away. This was no stiff, BTW. This was a tall, blond, good-looking *advertiser censored* laude graduate who had his choice of many attractive women - hmmm, sounds like someone we all know - and when EB told him to hit the road he reacted like a school boy.

How do you think someone else a little less refined and little less gentlemanly might have reacted if EB pulled something similar with him? Maybe, unlike MS in 1989 and unlike RB in 1987, he didn't walk away.
 
I do think the freshness of the blood on 22 June 1990 is saying she was alive around the time the sun came up that morning though.

It definitely can't be discounted and there is evidence to support such a scenario; one more reason why Raybould likely kept the details of the CFS report from his notes. I also note that in 2008 the judge who presided over RB's acquittal opined that in his opinion, based on the information that he gleaned from the 1992 trial record, 2004 appeal record and the forensic entomology report, EB was likely abducted. That should count for something.
 
It would help if that blood and the blood pattern could be pinned down a little more - take the assumption out of the equation. Jmo.
 
The evidence, put together in one place is painting a picture - not any one individual.

There is no evidence a body was dragged out of the car, the windows were down - then the windows were up, the doors were unlocked - then the doors were locked, there was blood from a female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain in the rear of the car along with the passenger door frame, two seat-belt areas and the edge of the rear bench seat.

An engineer and a registered nurse knew nothing of forensic capability at that time?

Chuckles - imo (speaking through a megaphone with a helicopter hovering overhead) put the ear buds down and step away from the TPS officers.

Forensic geniuses so they use their other daughters blood because they know the CFS experts would never think of matching it to the non-missing daughter.

Chuckles back at ya
 
Bingo!

If the blood did turn out to be sister C`s - I would feel safe assuming EB did in fact die by early am 22 June 1990. If it was EB`s blood - would continue to have doubts about exactly happened due to the small quantity and no exit smears.
 
Bingo!

If the blood did turn out to be sister C`s - I would feel safe assuming EB did in fact die by early am 22 June 1990. If it was EB`s blood - would continue to have doubts about exactly happened due to the small quantity and no exit smears.


Wow, speechless, you would put McMahon to shame. You could be able to convict mother Theresa with that logic.
Sorry guess I'm from a different planet.

No disrespect intended woodland
Let's hear your theory
 
Too many holes to have a theory and don`t care much for assumptions.

Chuckles - did you know there was an organized club, based in the UK, devoted to running down, detracting from and just plain anti Mother Theresa. Use to read about them from time to time when I lived in Dubai - made me realize if she had detractors, then I sure will have them to.
 
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