Canada - Remains of three newborns found at London home, 9 June 2009

[Paintr]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1126477.html

Sinn’s lawyer, Jeanine LeRoy, said her client made a brief court appearance Tuesday and was to appear again for a video remand June 19.

LeRoy, who has also taken on the high-profile defence of one of the two people charged with murder in the disappearance of Victoria Stafford in Woodstock, Ont., said she could not comment further on Sinn’s case.

A woman who identified herself as Sinn’s sister when contacted at her London, Ont.,-area home said she hadn’t spoken to her sister in 15 years, but would not comment further.

Neighbours said there were three children who, at some point, lived in the home where the babies’ remains were found — two older children and an infant about 12 months old.

 

[Truthful Lies]

Interesting...and disturbing..if she carried them around for so long, why didn't she take them with her when she moved out...that's the weird part in a string of oddities.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Interesting...and disturbing..if she carried them around for so long, why didn't she take them with her when she moved out...that's the weird part in a string of oddities.

That raises a good question - I wonder if those babies have been in that basement since their deaths, or if she did move with them. Perhaps she finally wanted rid of the burden.

Ghastly.

 

[Paintr]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1682192

London police say they are trying to learn all they can about a woman who was charged with concealing the bodies of three infants found decomposing in a basement, and have enlisted the help of investigators from several forces to track her movements over the years.
....

Jeannie LeRoy, a lawyer for Ms. Sinn, said she could not comment on the charges because she did not have permission from her client to speak with the media.

The case was adjourned to June 19 for video remand.

 

[Paintr]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5huajesmqHu8dHDz-5fAPmtUfKBAA

Police investigating the discovery of the severely decomposed remains of three infants say it could be weeks before an autopsy provides the answers they're seeking.

The ages, genders and causes of death remain a mystery after the remains were found in a London, Ont., home on Saturday. The remains are so badly decomposed that police initially believed they were dealing with only one infant.

An autopsy will be performed in Toronto on Thursday, but London police Det.-Supt. Ken Heslop says it could take weeks to get results.

 

[ThoughtElf]

All of the articles keep using the term 'infants'. Consistently.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

All of the articles keep using the term 'infants'. Consistently.

The difference between a late term fetus (abortion, still birth or miscarriage) and a young infant would not be too easy to determine until the results of the autopsy are presented.

A gory detail from my forensic anthropology degree: infant skeletons have about 100 more bones than do adults (around 300!) because things haven't fused yet (not just skull, but leg/joint bones, etc). It is very, very easy to be confused about things if you have three infants (meaning NINE HUNDRED BONES) commingled, depending on the state of decomposition, as even the skulls would fall a part eventually.

Since it was hard to tell how many bodies there were, I assume that this means they were moved several times (likely in a duffel bag of some sort), and shaken around, which would make it super hard to count them out. They likely had to count a specific bone to confirm suspicions of more than one (my old prof recommended sets of ocular ridges). It is also possible, since they didn't say right away that there was more than one baby (as this might have been obvious by 3X the normal amount of material) that some of the bones were broken up or splintered - which would account for the disrespect of human remains charge. It is possible she was hoping that they would disintegrate enough that she could scatter them in a river or woods, or even a garden.

Sorry for the gruesome detail - I don't mean any coldness towards those poor babies; just trying to think about it away from my personal feelings as a mom of a toddler.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Neglecting to obtain assistance in childbirth carries a maximum penalty of five years. The charge presumes that a woman gives birth "with intent that the child shall not live or with intent to conceal the birth of as child, fails to make provision for reasonable assistance," according to the Criminal Code of Canada. The charge also includes the provision that the child died or is permanently injured during or just after labour.

Unassisted child birth is becoming quite the trend these days - I wonder how women deal with the legalities of it.

http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/articles/pregnancy/unassistedbirth/index.php

Edit: I guess unassisted homebirth of the "natural lifestyle" kind doesn't follow with "intent that the child shall not live," and I am sure they have some sort of arrangement with a midwife/hospital in case of emergency, which would avoid the "fails to make provision for reasonable assistance" issue. I doubt they would be prosecuted, in any case, unless it turns out really wrong.

 

[Paintr]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/10/9746041-sun.html

Experts could have a very hard time pinpointing when the three babies found dead in a London basement actually died, a forensic anthropologist says.

"It really depends on the environment the remains are in -- in a house, buried, outside, what was the temperature, the climate, was it in an air-conditioned house or an old basement? It can all affect the time of decomposition," said Martin Evison, a forensic anthropologist at the University of Toronto, speaking generally about human decomposition.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/10/9746041-sun.html

Experts could have a very hard time pinpointing when the three babies found dead in a London basement actually died, a forensic anthropologist says.

"It really depends on the environment the remains are in -- in a house, buried, outside, what was the temperature, the climate, was it in an air-conditioned house or an old basement? It can all affect the time of decomposition," said Martin Evison, a forensic anthropologist at the University of Toronto, speaking generally about human decomposition.

A lot of forensic anthro's understanding of decomposition rates come from actually timing the decomposition of pigs or other similar flesh - and this is done by controlling the environmental variables. If the bodies have been moved in and out of various containers and climates, it will be even harder to tell. Also, decomposition rates vary according to many other factors - like wounds, and how chubby the person was at death. Also, other factors, such as lime and water, are hugely influential.

It is very true that these things are hard to pinpoint, and all we can expect is a ball park estimate based on witness testimony and the investigation of the home/bodies. I really hope people just tell the truth on this one.

I wonder, did the babies have names?

 

[mysteriew]

It seems like there are 2 or 3 of these every year. The mother 'collects' her deceased children's remains. Then at some point she either moves away like she has forgottent them, or she dies and they are later found.

Most of the time the autopsy won't be able to identify the cause of death. About the best they can determine after this much time will be whatever she tells them happened. Usually the mother's will say that the children were miscarried, stillborn or died soon after birth. There won't be enough left of them to determine if they ever took a breath. A lot of times the mothers will say they couldn't afford the burial costs or they weren't ready to give up their baby. Since they are usually found in either the attic or the basement and not buried, I suspect the second. They want them close enough to be able to get to them, and actually see them.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

It seems like there are 2 or 3 of these every year. The mother 'collects' her deceased children's remains. Then at some point she either moves away like she has forgottent them, or she dies and they are later found.

Most of the time the autopsy won't be able to identify the cause of death. About the best they can determine after this much time will be whatever she tells them happened. Usually the mother's will say that the children were miscarried, stillborn or died soon after birth. There won't be enough left of them to determine if they ever took a breath. A lot of times the mothers will say they couldn't afford the burial costs or they weren't ready to give up their baby. Since they are usually found in either the attic or the basement and not buried, I suspect the second. They want them close enough to be able to get to them, and actually see them.

I assumed that it was a matter of grief at first, but the fact that there are three of them seem kind of excessive to me, IMO.

 

[mysteriew]

I assumed that it was a matter of grief at first, but the fact that there are three of them seem kind of excessive to me, IMO.

I read something about this a long time ago. Seems like there is difficulty in grieving the child, maybe some shame or guilt (unwed pregnancy sometimes or because they couldn't afford or didn't go to the doctor or because they couldn't afford the burial, they were ambivalent about the pregnancy.) Then the baby dies. That increases the shame or guilt and at the same time they are grieving the loss of the baby.

They keep the child close and may visit it. And most that I have seen there are usually two or more babies found, often together. Family usually doesn't know.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I read something about this a long time ago. Seems like there is difficulty in grieving the child, maybe some shame or guilt (unwed pregnancy sometimes or because they couldn't afford or didn't go to the doctor or because they couldn't afford the burial, they were ambivalent about the pregnancy.) Then the baby dies. That increases the shame or guilt and at the same time they are grieving the loss of the baby.

They keep the child close and may visit it. And most that I have seen there are usually two or more babies found, often together. Family usually doesn't know.

I really hope you're right, as that would turn this from "real crime" to pathos, which is better. However, until they find out what has happened to her one year old daughter who no one has seen for a while, I am still nervous. (Though the fact that the charges do not include murder, I am leaning towards miscarriage/still birth - though three is still an awful lot.)

 

[Paintr]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/11/9758251-sun.html[/URL


]While police were still awaiting results of autopsies on the remains, which were scheduled to begin today in Toronto, charge sheets filed in court indicate authorities believe Jennifer Sinn, 32, was the mother.

They also believe the babies died about the years 2001, 2002 and 2006 and that their remains were placed "in a storage tote box," the documents say.

 

[Truthful Lies]

Just a thought...I think that the public is not quite-so-outraged yet, because, deep down, we can all imagine grief not being processed in the "right" way...have seen it...or maybe experienced it ourselves...and some just have different ways. 3 is excessive...but I really hope it was a mental health issue rather than a crime....

 

[ThoughtElf]

I assumed that it was a matter of grief at first, but the fact that there are three of them seem kind of excessive to me, IMO.

I'm still stumbling over the fact that it was reported that 3 young children lived with her at one time. Not the teen and the elder child, but three infants. Where are they?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5huajesmqHu8dHDz-5fAPmtUfKBAA

"O'Quinn said she didn't see the residents of the home at 1302 Sandford St. often, but like many neighbours, remembers seeing three young children, none older than two years old, who they believe lived in the house."

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I'm still stumbling over the fact that it was reported that 3 young children lived with her at one time. Not the teen and the elder child, but three infants. Where are they?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5huajesmqHu8dHDz-5fAPmtUfKBAA

"O'Quinn said she didn't see the residents of the home at 1302 Sandford St. often, but like many neighbours, remembers seeing three young children, none older than two years old, who they believe lived in the house."

Yes, the one year old who hasn't been seen in a while, for instance. I can only assume that LE has tracked the tots down, or else murder charges would be applied, as well (?).

Man, I am hoping for miscarriage grief. Really, given this nasty situation, it's the best we can hope for.

 

[Paintr]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/06/11/babies-deaths.html

A senior police official says investigators are actively exploring the possibility that the three infants whose remains were found in a London, Ont., home on Saturday did not die there.

Det.-Supt. Ken Heslop said it's possible the deaths occurred in another Ontario community before Jennifer Sinn, the woman charged in the case, moved to London.

 

[Paintr]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1685676

An autopsy being performed today at Toronto's Centre of Forensic Sciences could help determine the exact ages and gender of the infants, along with how the died, but police say the results of some testing will not be available for weeks.