CANADA Canada - Samuel Lottery, 17, London, Ont, 19 Jan 1996

[whiterhino]

If it was over a girl, why the notes to the family though? The family would have nothing to do with 2 teenage boys fighting over a girl. Kill the competition, yes, makes sense but then hide the crime & never speak of it again. Not typical for a "crime of passion" to turn into a psychopathic game of taunting L.E. I would think the "bragging rights" in that circumstance would be getting the girl/payback/wtv.

And what is this about dismemberment? I thought that the reason that all of Samuels' remains weren't found is because of so much time passing & the time of the year (spring thaw/water levels/river current). However, I get the feeling that a significant amount of remains were never found & neither were Samuels' belongings. They had to be disposed of somehow.

This is why I kept going back to the idea of being killed right at the rivers edge. No primary/secondary scene to clean & conceal, no transporting the body, not much risk of being seen carrying out those tasks. Depending on the way in which Samuel was murdered, it might not even leave much of a mess maybe?

It seems like whoever did this had a problem with not just Samuel but also his family. Why else would the person write those letters & not to the L.P.S station, to the home & church. Why the church? Why not the school or his mothers workplace? If the letters were sent to L.E I would say possible serial killer but it's hard to say. Telling the police where to look & writing again on the anniversary sounds like a serial killer but there have been no other murders like this since. At least not around London that I know of.

Maybe a "friend" of the family who attended that church? Someone who didn't want them there? Someone who befriended Samuel, whom he would hang out with after school or meet up with? Whoever did it wanted to make the family suffer & made sure to remember the date for future torture. Again, wouldn't a serial killer have moved on to other victims? How often do serial killers re-victimize family members?

I wonder how much analysis was done on the letters?

 

[dotr]

It seems the bones may have naturally separated, not dismembered, sorry for poor choice of wording on my part.
The letters sent to the family were written on feminine stationary, imo, the type one might associate with an older person or a pre-teen girl imo.moo.
Why would someone use the type of stationary that is more distinctive (and nicer) than just plain old paper? It is pictured, with text removed, in this link.
http://www.police.london.ca/d.aspx?s=/Newsroom/Unsolved_Crimes/2009317.htm

 

[dotr]

Just to look at things from a different perspective and to speculate on the January 19 date of Samuel going missing, and the subsequent letters to the family ...

Fwiw
MLKD, sometimes celebrated on January 19
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/martin-luther-king-day

Early, no longer practiced, creed of the POF church ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_of_Fire_International

 

[dotr]

If it was over a girl, why the notes to the family though? The family would have nothing to do with 2 teenage boys fighting over a girl. Kill the competition, yes, makes sense but then hide the crime & never speak of it again. Not typical for a "crime of passion" to turn into a psychopathic game of taunting L.E. I would think the "bragging rights" in that circumstance would be getting the girl/payback/wtv.

And what is this about dismemberment? I thought that the reason that all of Samuels' remains weren't found is because of so much time passing & the time of the year (spring thaw/water levels/river current). However, I get the feeling that a significant amount of remains were never found & neither were Samuels' belongings. They had to be disposed of somehow.

This is why I kept going back to the idea of being killed right at the rivers edge. No primary/secondary scene to clean & conceal, no transporting the body, not much risk of being seen carrying out those tasks. Depending on the way in which Samuel was murdered, it might not even leave much of a mess maybe?

It seems like whoever did this had a problem with not just Samuel but also his family. Why else would the person write those letters & not to the L.P.S station, to the home & church. Why the church? Why not the school or his mothers workplace? If the letters were sent to L.E I would say possible serial killer but it's hard to say. Telling the police where to look & writing again on the anniversary sounds like a serial killer but there have been no other murders like this since. At least not around London that I know of.


Maybe a "friend" of the family who attended that church? Someone who didn't want them there? Someone who befriended Samuel, whom he would hang out with after school or meet up with? Whoever did it wanted to make the family suffer & made sure to remember the date for future torture. Again, wouldn't a serial killer have moved on to other victims? How often do serial killers re-victimize family members?

I wonder how much analysis was done on the letters?

rbbm

Shawn Cameron Lamb, alleged sk from Sarnia, (about an hour from London) sent letters to his victim's family..
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...shawn-lamb-contacts-victim-s-family-1.1324138

"Alleged serial killer Shawn Lamb contacts victim's family
Family of Winnipeg woman murdered in 2007 receive 2 letters from alleged serial killer"

 

[TMAN2014]

When you say someone had a problem with the family, maybe there were racial reasons. Maybe someone had a problem with a black family in their church, and took it so far, that they even wrote letters.

What is the racial makeup of this church? Was it mixed racially?

 

[TMAN2014]

Or could it be an inner city type deal, where the local hoods, don't like the kid who is smart and is a good student, and does not fit in with their culture. Good students get attacked all the time by the thugs, in the wretched city where I used to live, and it goes widely ignored by everyone. If you need links, I can get them for you.

 

[TMAN2014]

Having thought this over, I really think Samuel was either killed by
A. a very racist person
B. a street , possibly someone squealed on them and they wanted revenge.

I believe either one of these options would possibly taunt the family. There are only so many people who would take a murder to that kind of a personal level.

 

[whiterhino]

Just wanted to say a quick thanks for contributing to this thread. It feels good to not just talk to myself bc in real life, my family & friends do not understand why I'm interested & think it's weird.

I've been wondering a lot about the stationary & what the letter might contain. It IS feminine & floral but maybe the killer took a notepad off their wifes'/mothers'/co-workers desk or kitchen table? Like lets say an angry church member who was a closet racist, who stole the church secretarys' notepad? Or maybe an angry student/"friend" who took a notepad from their own home?

I also was unsure of why Samuels' remains were so scattered but factoring all of that time & the conditions, it makes sense. I saw an excerpt from The Body Farm talking about how typically the skull & mandible will be found separately due to the way the tissues decompose. I don't imagine someone travelled up & down the Thames dumping body parts. But maybe there was a second "crime scene"?

If you were plotting to kill someone & managed to lure the person away, how would you do it? Take your chances & beat them along the river bike path & roll them into the water? Kill them in your car, dump the body off a bridge/drag it to the river/clean your car of evidence? If you don't do it right at the river, you have a second crime scene to clean up/conceal & also the transporting & disposing of the body. I wonder how Samuel was murdered? Where did the weapon go?

No matter the scenario, that takes a lot of time. Who would be able to carry out those activities without being missed? You have to make the arrangement to meet up, do the deed, clean the scene/yourself/car etc...

I wasn't aware of Shawn Cameron Lamb & will also have to read more about the church. Idk anything about their members/demographics. Not to disrespect L.E at all but honestly I wonder how thorough they were. It took so long for them to even deem Samuels' death suspicious, maybe they didn't look into it very far? It feels like there should be more info or clues.

 

[dotr]

Just wanted to say a quick thanks for contributing to this thread. It feels good to not just talk to myself bc in real life, my family & friends do not understand why I'm interested & think it's weird.

I've been wondering a lot about the stationary & what the letter might contain. It IS feminine & floral but maybe the killer took a notepad off their wifes'/mothers'/co-workers desk or kitchen table? Like lets say an angry church member who was a closet racist, who stole the church secretarys' notepad? Or maybe an angry student/"friend" who took a notepad from their own home?

I also was unsure of why Samuels' remains were so scattered but factoring all of that time & the conditions, it makes sense. I saw an excerpt from The Body Farm talking about how typically the skull & mandible will be found separately due to the way the tissues decompose. I don't imagine someone travelled up & down the Thames dumping body parts. But maybe there was a second "crime scene"?

If you were plotting to kill someone & managed to lure the person away, how would you do it? Take your chances & beat them along the river bike path & roll them into the water? Kill them in your car, dump the body off a bridge/drag it to the river/clean your car of evidence? If you don't do it right at the river, you have a second crime scene to clean up/conceal & also the transporting & disposing of the body. I wonder how Samuel was murdered? Where did the weapon go?

No matter the scenario, that takes a lot of time. Who would be able to carry out those activities without being missed? You have to make the arrangement to meet up, do the deed, clean the scene/yourself/car etc...

I wasn't aware of Shawn Cameron Lamb & will also have to read more about the church. Idk anything about their members/demographics. Not to disrespect L.E at all but honestly I wonder how thorough they were. It took so long for them to even deem Samuels' death suspicious, maybe they didn't look into it very far? It feels like there should be more info or clues.

rbbm.

The stationary quite possibly was taken from the females you mention, but why??
The perp/s could have used any old scrap of paper, or fresh plain paper - is the flowery stationary a message in itself?
Did they want the receiver to think it came from a woman, or was it some kind of slight against the victim, or even did it have fingerprints on it, that might
literally, point the finger towards someone else?
imo, speculation.

Adding, wonder if the envelope the note arrived in, was the same type of stationary, if so, perhaps it was to trick the recipients into opening the letter and to read it.

 

[newone]

Or could it be an inner city type deal, where the local hoods, don't like the kid who is smart and is a good student, and does not fit in with their culture. Good students get attacked all the time by the thugs, in the wretched city where I used to live, and it goes widely ignored by everyone. If you need links, I can get them for you.

jealous green eyed monsters are the worst and they do pick on the good kids!

 

[newone]

Yeah, who writes 2 notes, desperately wanting his evil acts to be recognized?

A teacher? student? older person? relative?

Who gets mad at a 17 year old, who goes to church and kills them in the heart of winter?

If I had to guess, I would guess a young person, who was a classmate, and had low self esteem.

He was 17, so I doubt it was for $$$$. Could it be over a girl, like maybe a prom date? I wonder if Samuel had a girl friend.

just wild guess but could it be a person who felt ''pre-empted'' by him -- someone who fell from grace either in sports or a church activity.....someone who got passed over (am thinking along lines of singing or contests or team events?)
or someone whose relative attended church and was truly impressed by the family and vocal in their praise ....

just a guess.....moo

 

[newone]

did he have a part time job or apply for one?

not suggesting for one minute that he needed one but am curious if had applied for or competed for a job....

there is one thing that is difficult to broach......could someone have been jealous of his family life...and wished they could have his parents --

 

[whiterhino]

rbbm.

The stationary quite possibly was taken from the females you mention, but why??
The perp/s could have used any old scrap of paper, or fresh plain paper - is the flowery stationary a message in itself?
Did they want the receiver to think it came from a woman, or was it some kind of slight against the victim, or even did it have fingerprints on it, that might
literally, point the finger towards someone else?
imo, speculation.

Adding, wonder if the envelope the note arrived in, was the same type of stationary, if so, perhaps it was to trick the recipients into opening the letter and to read it.

Yeah I don't get why someone would use that particular paper. Plain lined or white paper would be so much more anonymous. Although it could have been swiped from someone else, I feel like a man would probably not buy or own floral stationary so it's a bit curious.

I also wonder about how the letters arrived to their destinations & whether there was an envelope to test & if so, what did they find? Or if L.E analyzed the writing?

The only "issues" I have with the gang/jealous peer classmate/jealous girlfriend theories is, in those scenarios, where is the motivation to re-victimize the family later on? I'm totally not disagreeing or saying any of these ideas are wrong but I can't understand in those scenarios why someone would drag it out to hurt the family? A jealous peer or some girl/gang wouldn't have much motivation or a grudge with Samuels' family (?). Maybe it's just over my head & I just need to read more cases : /

I can't help but feel like Samuels' mother must know something. Or maybe she overlooked something or someone? It's hard to understand how someone could commit such a psychopathic crime (as opposed to a spontaneous "crime of passion") that basically obsesses & remembers the anniversary of it but then that same person could disconnect themselves & just go away, possibly fixating to a new victim?

@dotr I read about Shawn Cameron Lamb on murderpedia but didn't see anything about letters to the families? What REALLY stood out to me was the possibility that Patricia Bordato could very surely be another of his victims. I had posted about her in another thread & you made one for her not long ago. Either that or maybe another man & situation just like that case.

 

[newone]

Yeah I don't get why someone would use that particular paper. Plain lined or white paper would be so much more anonymous. Although it could have been swiped from someone else, I feel like a man would probably not buy or own floral stationary so it's a bit curious.

I also wonder about how the letters arrived to their destinations & whether there was an envelope to test & if so, what did they find? Or if L.E analyzed the writing?

The only "issues" I have with the gang/jealous peer classmate/jealous girlfriend theories is, in those scenarios, where is the motivation to re-victimize the family later on? I'm totally not disagreeing or saying any of these ideas are wrong but I can't understand in those scenarios why someone would drag it out to hurt the family? A jealous peer or some girl/gang wouldn't have much motivation or a grudge with Samuels' family (?). Maybe it's just over my head & I just need to read more cases : /

I can't help but feel like Samuels' mother must know something. Or maybe she overlooked something or someone? It's hard to understand how someone could commit such a psychopathic crime (as opposed to a spontaneous "crime of passion") that basically obsesses & remembers the anniversary of it but then that same person could disconnect themselves & just go away, possibly fixating to a new victim?

@dotr I read about Shawn Cameron Lamb on murderpedia but didn't see anything about letters to the families? What REALLY stood out to me was the possibility that Patricia Bordato could very surely be another of his victims. I had posted about her in another thread & you made one for her not long ago. Either that or maybe another man & situation just like that case.

bbm: those notes hold a lot of information ((even fingerprints)) and I would hope that LE has them as evidence.

 

[Snoopster]

Having thought this over, I really think Samuel was either killed by
A. a very racist person
B. a street , possibly someone squealed on them and they wanted revenge.

I believe either one of these options would possibly taunt the family. There are only so many people who would take a murder to that kind of a personal level.

I truly appreciate your perspective, Tman. I live in London and am very naive. One of the reasons I am so naive is that we have a very low crime rate here in London. Off the top I have trouble believing it is due to racism. Do we have racism here? Of course. It's human nature and we're human. But racism, in my admittedly naive belief, is not aggressive.

General racism towards blacks, in light of our very small black population, is not significant. Of course gang against gang could be a factor, however I don't get the sense that Sam was into the gang culture. Our biggest gangs here (admittedly very small) are Vietnamese, followed by ??. (Perhaps black drug gangs visiting from Toronto and Detroit??) Our most significant racism is toward the native population (sadly). We have much larger minority groups from the Balkans and other Islamic countries. There is a meaningful refugee population that has arrived more recently from East Africa, however I don't see how this connects to Sam's murder so many years ago.

Thinking of Sam and his family.




So why Sam? He sounds like a good kid.

 

[TMAN2014]

I truly appreciate your perspective, Tman. I live in London and am very naive. One of the reasons I am so naive is that we have a very low crime rate here in London. Off the top I have trouble believing it is due to racism. Do we have racism here? Of course. It's human nature and we're human. But racism, in my admittedly naive belief, is not aggressive.

General racism towards blacks, in light of our very small black population, is not significant. Of course gang against gang could be a factor, however I don't get the sense that Sam was into the gang culture. Our biggest gangs here (admittedly very small) are Vietnamese, followed by ??. (Perhaps black drug gangs visiting from Toronto and Detroit??) Our most significant racism is toward the native population (sadly). We have much larger minority groups from the Balkans and other Islamic countries. There is a meaningful refugee population that has arrived more recently from East Africa, however I don't see how this connects to Sam's murder so many years ago.

Thinking of Sam and his family.




So why Sam? He sounds like a good kid.

I agree that some places are different. I have lived in areas, where each ethnic group has their own neighborhood, and if a black family moved into another neighborhood, there were threats and sometimes violence (Breaking windows, graffiti, vandalism, intimidation). Of course, each city is different. A place like England might be quite different than some Irish, Polish or Italian neighborhood in Boston, NY, or Philly, or even the Old South in the US.

I agree that Sam was not part of any gang, but the gang culture preys upon innocent people. A good kid like Sam would be a target for the dregs of society. Again, I don't know that area in Canada. None of this might exist there. I am just searching for some possibility of who carries so much hate in their hearts.

 

[TMAN2014]

At least we got a little bit of discussion going on this case. It is interesting how people have different insight into a case like this, based on their own experiences.

 

[newone]

Yeah I don't get why someone would use that particular paper. Plain lined or white paper would be so much more anonymous. Although it could have been swiped from someone else, I feel like a man would probably not buy or own floral stationary so it's a bit curious.

I also wonder about how the letters arrived to their destinations & whether there was an envelope to test & if so, what did they find? Or if L.E analyzed the writing?

The only "issues" I have with the gang/jealous peer classmate/jealous girlfriend theories is, in those scenarios, where is the motivation to re-victimize the family later on? I'm totally not disagreeing or saying any of these ideas are wrong but I can't understand in those scenarios why someone would drag it out to hurt the family? A jealous peer or some girl/gang wouldn't have much motivation or a grudge with Samuels' family (?). Maybe it's just over my head & I just need to read more cases : /

I can't help but feel like Samuels' mother must know something. Or maybe she overlooked something or someone? It's hard to understand how someone could commit such a psychopathic crime (as opposed to a spontaneous "crime of passion") that basically obsesses & remembers the anniversary of it but then that same person could disconnect themselves & just go away, possibly fixating to a new victim?

@dotr I read about Shawn Cameron Lamb on murderpedia but didn't see anything about letters to the families? What REALLY stood out to me was the possibility that Patricia Bordato could very surely be another of his victims. I had posted about her in another thread & you made one for her not long ago. Either that or maybe another man & situation just like that case.

bbm

what about sick people like Clifford Olsen who loved to send letters to the parents of his young victims -- remember reading about that nasty side of him
and I could be wrong but I think there are others as well who sent letters to even LE as well taunting them -- I believe it is a way to possibly brag that they haven't been caught?? ((just guessing on my part))

 

[Snoopster]

I agree that some places are different. I have lived in areas, where each ethnic group has their own neighborhood, and if a black family moved into another neighborhood, there were threats and sometimes violence (Breaking windows, graffiti, vandalism, intimidation). Of course, each city is different. A place like England might be quite different than some Irish, Polish or Italian neighborhood in Boston, NY, or Philly, or even the Old South in the US.

I agree that Sam was not part of any gang, but the gang culture preys upon innocent people. A good kid like Sam would be a target for the dregs of society. Again, I don't know that area in Canada. None of this might exist there. I am just searching for some possibility of who carries so much hate in their hearts.

Regarding the part I bolded, I really have trouble seeing this here in London. I'm 99% sure that if a black family moved onto our street, or almost any street in London, no one would give it a second thought, other than, "hey, how unusual that a black family lives here on our street." They would be welcomed as much, or as little, as any other family.

Having said that, that may not be the same as how things go down at high school, where peer groups are all important and where differences are magnified. If this were the contributing factor though, I don't see how this would result in the follow on taunting. I just don't think it is "general racism" in this case. I think it is something personal.

Who did this to you Sam?? We want to know. We care about what happened to you.

 

[whiterhino]

Agree regarding the reputation/culture of London. There are so many different races & types of people mixing & living together here. Beal high school was like a tiny melting pot of cultures & from my experiences, there really wasn't much gang or race problems at Beal. Other schools like Montcalm & Lucas had more problems with Vietnamese gangs in the north end of the city.

However I could see race being an issue possibly within the church setting. Or maybe within their own community? I know the Whiteoaks area has some gang problems & the Lottery family had some connection to Jamaica. Maybe someone in the Jamaican community? I am totally unfamiliar with that aspect of this city but I do know that Carribean "peoples" aren't as common as say Somalian or Iranian people are here. I don't know how to write this without possibly sounding rude or offensive so hopefully that was neutral?!

The other thing about those letters & the similar cases is that in those other cases, there were multiple victims. Is Samuel the only victim or has his killer done this before or since? I know there have been cases of young males being found in London but those boys were younger than Samuel. Same with a very large number of women that are missing or were found murdered in the last 20 yrs in this area. They are so similar that you'd almost think it was the work of one murderer.

But Sams' case seems different & unrelated & I can't help but feel like this should be solve-able. I wonder why the letters were blurred out? Being able to see the writing would be helpful & I am extremely curious as to what was written. Another thing I can't gelp but think that Samuels mother must know something. The person knew them, not just Samuel. There must have been someone in their lives who was suspect. People who offer to help too much or are always in the family business or trying to be a surrogate uncle/brother/dad? I wonder if anyone in their lives changed afterwards or moved away?

So many questions!