OneLostGrl
I'm going against the grain- I'm going sane
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A friend of mine would say, "She has a nice collection of Axis IIs."
hahaha. That's what my family name should be. LMAO
Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1
- Thread starter future criminologist
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182
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hahaha. That's what my family name should be. LMAO
marylandmissing
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Psychiatry used to define a bounds between being mentally disturbed and emotionally disturbed. Now they are used interchangeably, when they are not the same thing...
A mentally ill person has something wrong with their thought processes. It is not a learned behavior.
An emotionally disturbed have adapted to coping skills that demonstrate they do not know how to deal with their emotions properly.
IMO, what is causing sociopathy? It's always been there, just now brought on in a different form...The 'spoiled' child used to refer to a rich child who got whatever they wanted.
Spoiled now can be implied to rich, poor, middle class, etc...Years ago, you wanted a new toy, you had to do chores. Now kids are just given them because parents want their kids to have what the Jones' have, and out of guilt of not spending quality time with them...many kids grow up in homes where truth, loyalty, hard work, etc, is not a characteristic that is important. Instead, having the best material possessions is what's important.
Schools pretty much have to thank kids to do anything these days, and are even resulting to paying students to behave. At home, kids are thanked for taking out the trash, doing their homework, and things they are supposed to do. What kind of message is that sending to kids?
Years ago, it was not encouraged to talk about yourself. Let your ego lie down. Now what do we have? Parents who buy their daughter's boob jobs, and have their sons in the gym at 14.
A mentally ill person has something wrong with their thought processes. It is not a learned behavior.
An emotionally disturbed have adapted to coping skills that demonstrate they do not know how to deal with their emotions properly.
IMO, what is causing sociopathy? It's always been there, just now brought on in a different form...The 'spoiled' child used to refer to a rich child who got whatever they wanted.
Spoiled now can be implied to rich, poor, middle class, etc...Years ago, you wanted a new toy, you had to do chores. Now kids are just given them because parents want their kids to have what the Jones' have, and out of guilt of not spending quality time with them...many kids grow up in homes where truth, loyalty, hard work, etc, is not a characteristic that is important. Instead, having the best material possessions is what's important.
Schools pretty much have to thank kids to do anything these days, and are even resulting to paying students to behave. At home, kids are thanked for taking out the trash, doing their homework, and things they are supposed to do. What kind of message is that sending to kids?
Years ago, it was not encouraged to talk about yourself. Let your ego lie down. Now what do we have? Parents who buy their daughter's boob jobs, and have their sons in the gym at 14.
future criminologist
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Aaahh, I found my way home.. the psych ward
The differences between mood disorders and personality disorders as they relate to actual mental illness as well as the major differences in symptoms.
just to go further with the differences you mention...I was actually, coincidentally, watching a special on the Lori Hacking case. they were talking about Mark Hacking he stripped down naked and went outside when his story started to unravel. The police and psychologists didn't buy it though - they knew he was trying to set up an insanity/mental illness defense for himself, because when he went outside naked, he still remembered to PUT ON HIS SHOES, something a person with an obvious mental illness wouldn't have the forethought to do.
Sometimes these sociopaths will mimic the behavior of mental illness in order to skate on the charges. in their narcissistic brain, they are pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. but usually they will slip up and reveal some kind of planning or thought process that went into their action that a truly mentally ill person would not have the sanity of mind to think about.
IMO, sociopaths use the human instinct to give the benefit of the doubt and to "see the good" in people against us. I see it happening here - everyone wants to believe that she didn't "mean" to do this, that it was an accident, because to us it is unthinkable - we want to believe that as humans we all follow the same set of morals and internal rules to guide our lives. So they prey on our desire and need to trust. You read it over and over again in the documents - her friends said "well she was my friend - I had no reason NOT to trust her". We trust people until they hurt us, not the other way around.
Invisible
Karma can change life with the swish of a horse's
Most of us (functional people) would get out from under parental control by getting a job and renting or buying a place.
You notice I said "functional," not "normal." They taught us in grad school, "Normal is a setting on a washing machine."
That's one of the many things that I don't get about her...why didn't she get a job? Was she lazy? Was it because she thought that the jobs that she was qualified for weren't good enough for her?
magic-cat
Mother to Many
She may have had an "underground" job that has not yet come to light, like drug dealer or high paid professional "companion" if you get my meaning...she was getting SOME money from somewhere...
Answers to questions like this are the only possible "positive" outcome with regard to a case like this. I do think the evidence shows at least two generations of mental "defect" - Cindy's myspace post alone shows a martyr complex and she seems like a narcissist; in my own extended family, seems like narcissism is rampant, esp. in the 15-30 year old age group. So much societal/cultural focus on the self and parents living vicariously through their often very young children. I often wonder if hundreds/ thousands of years from now, history will show that the nuclear family will be seen to be responsible for a lot of society's ills.
Sherbie
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**Warning...super long post ahead...skip if you're short on time**
I actually typed this up weeks ago, but it was such a long post that I decided to save it and maybe post it later if I found a good spot for it, so here it is:
Cindy and Casey's Relationship
My take on Cindy and Casey's relationship. Please note that this is all purely my own personal, completely non-professional opinion. I would love to have some input/feedback (professional and otherwise) to either corroborate or correct my perceptions.
Cindy is highly intelligent and dynamic. There's no doubt she loves Caylee with all her heart and has been beyond good to her, possibly even too good, as I suspect was the case with Casey all her life (and would have likely ended up being the same with Caylee as she grew up, too).
Cindy will give Casey the benefit of the doubt as far as it can possibly be extended, even when all others see through it, and even when her own intelligence and logic tell her otherwise. Then, when it's just impossible to continue to deny the obvious, she goes into cover-for/justify/must-save-Casey-from-herself mode in an attempt to make everything okay. She'll go to extreme lengths to do so, too.
Others around her realize this but are powerless to stop it and, because Cindy's very persuasive and forceful, they may even be sucked into it themselves. I feel this may be the case with George -- he may not necessarily agree with Cindy but goes along anyway because she controls him with her forceful personality and knows how to work and persuade him, so that he not only simply goes along with her, but actually comes to believe himself that she is correct. And, of course, I'm sure he follows her lead at times simply because he knows it's useless not to, and knows that his life will be hell if he doesn't capitulate.
I am sure there is a huge deal of denial involved for Cindy (on several levels) in trying to deal with Caylee's disappearance/death and Casey's involvement. But I think it's more than denial and enabling of Casey. In terms of Cindy's relationship with Casey, specifically, she is far more than just the typical enabler.
"Emotional incest" (sounds awful, but there's nothing sexual or nasty about it, just the term that's used) can be a situation where an enabler does for another (in just about every way you can imagine) to the point that they ensure the other person is an emotional and psychological cripple who is unequipped to handle life and responsibility and is totally dependent on the enabler's constant help and rescuing -- they simply can't function without their enabler holding them up, cleaning up their messes, saving them from themselves.
(By the way, I don't know what technical terms might be used for the people involved, but I'm calling them "enabler" and "dependent".)
On the face of it, it looks like the enabling person is extremely loving, bending over backwards to help the dependent person. In fact, though, it is the enabler's needs that are being met at the expense of the dependent person.
This is only my layperson's opinion based on personal experience -- it has happened with two very close family members. I spoke to a therapist about it a while back because it concerned me greatly. I wanted to know what I could do to help (basically, refusing to participate, enable or facilitate the behavior was the short answer).
That was several years ago and I have tried many times since to intervene and help this family member realize what she's doing to her grandson. All to no avail. It continues to this day and he's in his early 20s, about the same age as my own son. I can see him at 40 yrs old in just the same situation so long as she's alive.
Now, I admit that I am guilty of being a doting mother myself -- maybe even a little bit overly so -- but even I can plainly see the damage she's done to this child, who really is so good at his core -- highly intelligent, with so much potential. But the grandma has ensured that he is totally inept to handle even everyday things. Believe me, your jaw would drop to the floor if I told you the extent of the enabling, fetching, pampering, covering for, excusing and lack of responsibility/consequences.
Now that he is an adult, it's becoming more and more difficult for the enabler to control him in the same way or to save him from the consequences of his actions that she once could explain away with, "Well, he's just a child." I fear so much that his life is forever ruined unless he can get away from that environment. He has been spared every consequence, rescued every time by his grandmother. He's depressed, has drifted towards drugs and, although he could charm the socks off of you in a casual setting, he has a horrible time having any sort of meaningful relationships.
Interestingly, like Casey, he is a habitual liar. I would even go so far as to call it pathological. He lies about things that don't matter -- sometimes elaborately so. A lot of people think his lies are bravado, bragging -- he really tries to play up his worth and achievements by lying about himself to try to make others think more of him.
The truth is, thanks to grandma, he has little to no self esteem, no confidence in himself. He feels incompetent and inadequate to be worthy of anyone thinking well of him. So he tries to make himself appear to be something he feels others would admire. Now, I have no idea whether the lying is a byproduct of the emotional incest relationship or unrelated...but I thought it worth noting that he, too, is a habitual liar. On a grand scale.
It's all really so pitiful. I have to just stand by and watch his life going down the drain. I've tried to talk to him as well, and though he confides that he knows he needs to get out of the situation, he continues it, not doing a thing to break free. He is not receptive to counseling at all. Breaks my heart. I love him so much and even though I get angry at him for his behavior, I know where it has come from and feel very sorry for him at the same time.
He has to be the one to break out of this, but the grandmother raising him has ensured he's not equipped to deal with any sort of responsibility or make it on his own out in the "real" world. The way she came to be in the position of raising him from about age 13 yrs on -- even though his own mom is one of the best you could imagine -- is really bizarre and a result of this component of the grandmother's personality by which she feels she must control everyone and everything (especially this young man...and grandma's poor husband).
To her, she believe it's a matter of "nobody can love him more/do better for him than I can" psychological makeup. (I wonder if Cindy was this way about Caylee, too.) The grandma believes she's doing what is best for her grandson, but she has absolutely ruined this beautiful boy's life. I have to wonder if at least part of Casey's issues result from this type of situation as well.
The therapist said that the person creating the emotional incest relationship truly loves the dependent person and thinks they are doing the right thing, being extra loving and supportive, doing everything in their power to do, do, do for the dependent person. But it is really not about giving of themselves at all.
It's a means of controlling another person to ensure they never lose them. Toward that end, the enabler creates a situation wherein they will always be needed in a major way. As a result, the person on the receiving end usually is irresponsible, impulsive and not very empathetic towards others -- in fact, it can be a very narcissistic type of selfishness with no empathy for anyone else. As they've learned all their lives, the world revolves around them and things can always be fixed for them if they goof up.
While it seems it's all about unhealthy attention on the dependent person, it's more involved than that -- it all comes together in such a way that the ultimate result is that the dependent person is beholden and responsible for meeting the unhealthy emotional needs of the enabler; if they don't go along with the program, they're responsible for making the parent/enabler unhappy, so they continue in whatever role has been created for them.
The dependent may realize things just aren't right -- might even try to rebel and become verbally or physically abusive towards the enabler, or act out on someone else. But the enabler will play the role of martyr to the hilt and reel the dependent person back in. The dependent person, even though they may be unaware of it, feels obligated to continue to meet the needs of their enabler because the person has been so "good" to them, done so much for them, saved them over and over again. It's all they know and they act accordingly by feeding the enabler's need to be needed.
The therapist went into some stuff about how this type of relationship can horribly affect relationships with the opposite sex and with friendships of both sexes. They can be very promiscuous, jump in and out of relationships, many times expecting that person to do for them as the enabler has done, and have problems when that doesn't happen. Some may practically throw themselves at a romantic interest in a desperate need to be valued and loved.
On some level, they resent what the enabler's done to them and they might play out in another relationship what they're unable to play out with the enabler, even becoming abusive with it. Others may just shut off completely, not ever allowing anyone in close enough to have any power to affect their emotions. Regardless, everything is all about them at all times -- both in their way of thinking and in their reality, thanks to the enabler.
That therapist had some real interesting thoughts on the gender stuff, but it's been so long that I just can't remember all that he said. I hope I got the part I did remember correct. I do know the gist of it was that the dependent person is all but guaranteed to have severe problems in both romantic and friend relationships.
Oh...something else I remembered. He said that the enabler/adult will tend to latch on to one person (usually a child) to focus this unhealthy attention on, even if there are several other children in the family, and that in turn causes hard feelings from the other siblings towards the "chosen one". It affects the dynamics of the entire family.
In the eyes of the enabler, the chosen one can do no wrong whatsoever. If anyone dares suggest otherwise, they are seen as attacking and "against" or even "jealous" of the dependent person. So the enabler turns on that person, all the more determined to protect the dependent from anyone who would dare think he could be less than perfect.
He told me this it is very difficult for a professional to get through to someone like this, much less for a relative and layperson like me to make a difference (although I sure have tried). It's a very stressful and sad thing to watch happen.
I want to be sure I get this next part right, but I don't remember for certain, so corrections are welcome. He told me that often the dependent person will be or become bipolar and/or suffer from borderline personality disorder. I can't remember if he told me whether that kind of relationship actually caused those conditions, but I'm pretty sure he did.
I remember him mentioning the term "sociopath," and I think I recall the context being, in essence, that sociopathic criminals are sometimes a product of this type of extremely destructive relationship/upbringing. They don't have a good sense of the real world because they've never been made to live in it (instead, living in the consequence- and responsibility-free world the enabler has created, which doesn't resemble real life at all). They are so self-centered that they just don't care about anything except getting what they want.
Unfortunately, the young man in my family has been diagnosed at different times as being bipolar and/or having borderline personality disorder. And I absolutely blame his grandmother completely for it. It just breaks my heart to pieces. He's an adult and I can't force him into therapy, and she is STILL doing this to him (or "for" him, as she'd see it) -- even though he's a grown man, about Casey's age.
So as sad as this case is because of precious little Caylee, it saddens and frightens me for another reason. I could see my own family member getting that far out of control, unwilling to answer to anyone for anything he does, just waiting for it to blow over, as usual, after his grandma fixes it for him. Scary thought.
The reason I have shared this is for the sake of awareness. I see so much of my own family members in what I've gleaned of Cindy and Casey's relationship. The similarities are just overwhelming to me.
Regardless the correct terminology for this type of relationship ("emotional incest" is the term the therapist used, so that's what I've called it), I want to literally BEG of you -- if you can see yourself or loved ones in a situation like my family members or the one between Cindy and Casey, please, PLEASE do something to stop it if you possibly can. Believe you me, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets and the harder it is to break away from it.
It's hard to intervene because the outward appearance is that the enabler is a super kind, loving person, doing all they can for someone (and they do genuinely, deeply love the dependent person, but in an inappropriate and uhealthy way). The enabler can't accept that they're doing anything wrong. They're just trying to "help" or "love" -- I've given him everything I've got, they'll say.
You may look like a heel to those who aren't fully aware of the situation when you step in and suggest the enabler back off just a little and let the person become more responsible for themselves. But you can't just stand by and let something so wrong go on without doing a thing.
And that type of relationship definitely IS wrong. It's abusive! "Emotional incest" is far more than simply being overly doting or a case of a parent whose child can do no wrong....it's a very insidious, unhealthy, sick thing and can and will ruin a child's life forever.
I would love to have everyone's input. My knowledge is based only on family experience and what the therapist explained to me. I'm sure I might not have remembered or understood it all perfectly and would welcome clarification/correction from those who know more than I do.
I would also be interested to see if Cindy's brother, Rick (should he be lurking and reading) or perhaps Jesse's dad (since he seems to know the dynamics of the family), would feel this destructive relationship of "emotional incest" applies to Cindy and Casey. From afar, it sure seems that way to me. Not that any of it would excuse anyone's behavior in any way, but perhaps it might be helpful in understanding how things came to be and why some behaviors continue?
I am also curious, for anyone who agrees this situation might be the case for Cindy and Casey, what might have caused the enabler (Cindy) to be the way she is to begin with. Thanks for your thoughts!
I actually typed this up weeks ago, but it was such a long post that I decided to save it and maybe post it later if I found a good spot for it, so here it is:
Cindy and Casey's Relationship
My take on Cindy and Casey's relationship. Please note that this is all purely my own personal, completely non-professional opinion. I would love to have some input/feedback (professional and otherwise) to either corroborate or correct my perceptions.
Cindy is highly intelligent and dynamic. There's no doubt she loves Caylee with all her heart and has been beyond good to her, possibly even too good, as I suspect was the case with Casey all her life (and would have likely ended up being the same with Caylee as she grew up, too).
Cindy will give Casey the benefit of the doubt as far as it can possibly be extended, even when all others see through it, and even when her own intelligence and logic tell her otherwise. Then, when it's just impossible to continue to deny the obvious, she goes into cover-for/justify/must-save-Casey-from-herself mode in an attempt to make everything okay. She'll go to extreme lengths to do so, too.
Others around her realize this but are powerless to stop it and, because Cindy's very persuasive and forceful, they may even be sucked into it themselves. I feel this may be the case with George -- he may not necessarily agree with Cindy but goes along anyway because she controls him with her forceful personality and knows how to work and persuade him, so that he not only simply goes along with her, but actually comes to believe himself that she is correct. And, of course, I'm sure he follows her lead at times simply because he knows it's useless not to, and knows that his life will be hell if he doesn't capitulate.
I am sure there is a huge deal of denial involved for Cindy (on several levels) in trying to deal with Caylee's disappearance/death and Casey's involvement. But I think it's more than denial and enabling of Casey. In terms of Cindy's relationship with Casey, specifically, she is far more than just the typical enabler.
"Emotional incest" (sounds awful, but there's nothing sexual or nasty about it, just the term that's used) can be a situation where an enabler does for another (in just about every way you can imagine) to the point that they ensure the other person is an emotional and psychological cripple who is unequipped to handle life and responsibility and is totally dependent on the enabler's constant help and rescuing -- they simply can't function without their enabler holding them up, cleaning up their messes, saving them from themselves.
(By the way, I don't know what technical terms might be used for the people involved, but I'm calling them "enabler" and "dependent".)
On the face of it, it looks like the enabling person is extremely loving, bending over backwards to help the dependent person. In fact, though, it is the enabler's needs that are being met at the expense of the dependent person.
This is only my layperson's opinion based on personal experience -- it has happened with two very close family members. I spoke to a therapist about it a while back because it concerned me greatly. I wanted to know what I could do to help (basically, refusing to participate, enable or facilitate the behavior was the short answer).
That was several years ago and I have tried many times since to intervene and help this family member realize what she's doing to her grandson. All to no avail. It continues to this day and he's in his early 20s, about the same age as my own son. I can see him at 40 yrs old in just the same situation so long as she's alive.
Now, I admit that I am guilty of being a doting mother myself -- maybe even a little bit overly so -- but even I can plainly see the damage she's done to this child, who really is so good at his core -- highly intelligent, with so much potential. But the grandma has ensured that he is totally inept to handle even everyday things. Believe me, your jaw would drop to the floor if I told you the extent of the enabling, fetching, pampering, covering for, excusing and lack of responsibility/consequences.
Now that he is an adult, it's becoming more and more difficult for the enabler to control him in the same way or to save him from the consequences of his actions that she once could explain away with, "Well, he's just a child." I fear so much that his life is forever ruined unless he can get away from that environment. He has been spared every consequence, rescued every time by his grandmother. He's depressed, has drifted towards drugs and, although he could charm the socks off of you in a casual setting, he has a horrible time having any sort of meaningful relationships.
Interestingly, like Casey, he is a habitual liar. I would even go so far as to call it pathological. He lies about things that don't matter -- sometimes elaborately so. A lot of people think his lies are bravado, bragging -- he really tries to play up his worth and achievements by lying about himself to try to make others think more of him.
The truth is, thanks to grandma, he has little to no self esteem, no confidence in himself. He feels incompetent and inadequate to be worthy of anyone thinking well of him. So he tries to make himself appear to be something he feels others would admire. Now, I have no idea whether the lying is a byproduct of the emotional incest relationship or unrelated...but I thought it worth noting that he, too, is a habitual liar. On a grand scale.
It's all really so pitiful. I have to just stand by and watch his life going down the drain. I've tried to talk to him as well, and though he confides that he knows he needs to get out of the situation, he continues it, not doing a thing to break free. He is not receptive to counseling at all. Breaks my heart. I love him so much and even though I get angry at him for his behavior, I know where it has come from and feel very sorry for him at the same time.
He has to be the one to break out of this, but the grandmother raising him has ensured he's not equipped to deal with any sort of responsibility or make it on his own out in the "real" world. The way she came to be in the position of raising him from about age 13 yrs on -- even though his own mom is one of the best you could imagine -- is really bizarre and a result of this component of the grandmother's personality by which she feels she must control everyone and everything (especially this young man...and grandma's poor husband).
To her, she believe it's a matter of "nobody can love him more/do better for him than I can" psychological makeup. (I wonder if Cindy was this way about Caylee, too.) The grandma believes she's doing what is best for her grandson, but she has absolutely ruined this beautiful boy's life. I have to wonder if at least part of Casey's issues result from this type of situation as well.
The therapist said that the person creating the emotional incest relationship truly loves the dependent person and thinks they are doing the right thing, being extra loving and supportive, doing everything in their power to do, do, do for the dependent person. But it is really not about giving of themselves at all.
It's a means of controlling another person to ensure they never lose them. Toward that end, the enabler creates a situation wherein they will always be needed in a major way. As a result, the person on the receiving end usually is irresponsible, impulsive and not very empathetic towards others -- in fact, it can be a very narcissistic type of selfishness with no empathy for anyone else. As they've learned all their lives, the world revolves around them and things can always be fixed for them if they goof up.
While it seems it's all about unhealthy attention on the dependent person, it's more involved than that -- it all comes together in such a way that the ultimate result is that the dependent person is beholden and responsible for meeting the unhealthy emotional needs of the enabler; if they don't go along with the program, they're responsible for making the parent/enabler unhappy, so they continue in whatever role has been created for them.
The dependent may realize things just aren't right -- might even try to rebel and become verbally or physically abusive towards the enabler, or act out on someone else. But the enabler will play the role of martyr to the hilt and reel the dependent person back in. The dependent person, even though they may be unaware of it, feels obligated to continue to meet the needs of their enabler because the person has been so "good" to them, done so much for them, saved them over and over again. It's all they know and they act accordingly by feeding the enabler's need to be needed.
The therapist went into some stuff about how this type of relationship can horribly affect relationships with the opposite sex and with friendships of both sexes. They can be very promiscuous, jump in and out of relationships, many times expecting that person to do for them as the enabler has done, and have problems when that doesn't happen. Some may practically throw themselves at a romantic interest in a desperate need to be valued and loved.
On some level, they resent what the enabler's done to them and they might play out in another relationship what they're unable to play out with the enabler, even becoming abusive with it. Others may just shut off completely, not ever allowing anyone in close enough to have any power to affect their emotions. Regardless, everything is all about them at all times -- both in their way of thinking and in their reality, thanks to the enabler.
That therapist had some real interesting thoughts on the gender stuff, but it's been so long that I just can't remember all that he said. I hope I got the part I did remember correct. I do know the gist of it was that the dependent person is all but guaranteed to have severe problems in both romantic and friend relationships.
Oh...something else I remembered. He said that the enabler/adult will tend to latch on to one person (usually a child) to focus this unhealthy attention on, even if there are several other children in the family, and that in turn causes hard feelings from the other siblings towards the "chosen one". It affects the dynamics of the entire family.
In the eyes of the enabler, the chosen one can do no wrong whatsoever. If anyone dares suggest otherwise, they are seen as attacking and "against" or even "jealous" of the dependent person. So the enabler turns on that person, all the more determined to protect the dependent from anyone who would dare think he could be less than perfect.
He told me this it is very difficult for a professional to get through to someone like this, much less for a relative and layperson like me to make a difference (although I sure have tried). It's a very stressful and sad thing to watch happen.
I want to be sure I get this next part right, but I don't remember for certain, so corrections are welcome. He told me that often the dependent person will be or become bipolar and/or suffer from borderline personality disorder. I can't remember if he told me whether that kind of relationship actually caused those conditions, but I'm pretty sure he did.
I remember him mentioning the term "sociopath," and I think I recall the context being, in essence, that sociopathic criminals are sometimes a product of this type of extremely destructive relationship/upbringing. They don't have a good sense of the real world because they've never been made to live in it (instead, living in the consequence- and responsibility-free world the enabler has created, which doesn't resemble real life at all). They are so self-centered that they just don't care about anything except getting what they want.
Unfortunately, the young man in my family has been diagnosed at different times as being bipolar and/or having borderline personality disorder. And I absolutely blame his grandmother completely for it. It just breaks my heart to pieces. He's an adult and I can't force him into therapy, and she is STILL doing this to him (or "for" him, as she'd see it) -- even though he's a grown man, about Casey's age.
So as sad as this case is because of precious little Caylee, it saddens and frightens me for another reason. I could see my own family member getting that far out of control, unwilling to answer to anyone for anything he does, just waiting for it to blow over, as usual, after his grandma fixes it for him. Scary thought.
The reason I have shared this is for the sake of awareness. I see so much of my own family members in what I've gleaned of Cindy and Casey's relationship. The similarities are just overwhelming to me.
Regardless the correct terminology for this type of relationship ("emotional incest" is the term the therapist used, so that's what I've called it), I want to literally BEG of you -- if you can see yourself or loved ones in a situation like my family members or the one between Cindy and Casey, please, PLEASE do something to stop it if you possibly can. Believe you me, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets and the harder it is to break away from it.
It's hard to intervene because the outward appearance is that the enabler is a super kind, loving person, doing all they can for someone (and they do genuinely, deeply love the dependent person, but in an inappropriate and uhealthy way). The enabler can't accept that they're doing anything wrong. They're just trying to "help" or "love" -- I've given him everything I've got, they'll say.
You may look like a heel to those who aren't fully aware of the situation when you step in and suggest the enabler back off just a little and let the person become more responsible for themselves. But you can't just stand by and let something so wrong go on without doing a thing.
And that type of relationship definitely IS wrong. It's abusive! "Emotional incest" is far more than simply being overly doting or a case of a parent whose child can do no wrong....it's a very insidious, unhealthy, sick thing and can and will ruin a child's life forever.
I would love to have everyone's input. My knowledge is based only on family experience and what the therapist explained to me. I'm sure I might not have remembered or understood it all perfectly and would welcome clarification/correction from those who know more than I do.
I would also be interested to see if Cindy's brother, Rick (should he be lurking and reading) or perhaps Jesse's dad (since he seems to know the dynamics of the family), would feel this destructive relationship of "emotional incest" applies to Cindy and Casey. From afar, it sure seems that way to me. Not that any of it would excuse anyone's behavior in any way, but perhaps it might be helpful in understanding how things came to be and why some behaviors continue?
I am also curious, for anyone who agrees this situation might be the case for Cindy and Casey, what might have caused the enabler (Cindy) to be the way she is to begin with. Thanks for your thoughts!
txsvicki
Active Member
I'm no expert and haven't really even talked to any about something like this, but I believe that some things are inherited. To me, an enabler also has some sort of personality disorder and the two have some twisted relationship that feeds off each other. One may manipulate the enabler and get them off in another direction distracted from what the sociopath has really done. One thing I've wondered about the family in this case is if Casey may at times be either totally bad or totally good in Cindy's eyes which is a symptom of personality disorder. She was talking bad about Casey to R.P. warning him to stay away because she is a sociopath. She went from threatening Casey with arrest to totally defending her as mother of the year. Definitely abnormal if this is how they live their daily lives.
wedavis
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Sherbie-
That is a refreshing take on this subject. And very insightful IMO. I know a bit about "psychobabble" and most everything said about Casey and Cindy has been nothing more than cliches IMO. Thank you for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful analysis.
I have a question for you. What do you make of the fact that Cindy allegedly told one of Casey's friend that Casey is a "sociopath"?
How or does this fact fit in with the dynamic you write about?
That is a refreshing take on this subject. And very insightful IMO. I know a bit about "psychobabble" and most everything said about Casey and Cindy has been nothing more than cliches IMO. Thank you for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful analysis.
I have a question for you. What do you make of the fact that Cindy allegedly told one of Casey's friend that Casey is a "sociopath"?
How or does this fact fit in with the dynamic you write about?
OneLostGrl
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Sherbie...
Great post! How very well you describe the personality disordered! I grew up with a mother much like Cindy and the grandmother of your family member. They screw us up in ways they don't even realize. They were "just loving us, just taking care of us."
It took me years to get over the anger I had toward my mother for the damage she caused me and my siblings.
Just as an FYI, Bipolar isn't "caused" it is a brain disorder.
Great post! How very well you describe the personality disordered! I grew up with a mother much like Cindy and the grandmother of your family member. They screw us up in ways they don't even realize. They were "just loving us, just taking care of us."
It took me years to get over the anger I had toward my mother for the damage she caused me and my siblings.
Just as an FYI, Bipolar isn't "caused" it is a brain disorder.
GreenTeam
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Sherbie, wow, that is an amazing post! Even before you mentioned the word "sociopath," your comments reminded me of some things I read about sociopaths during the Scott Peterson case. The emotional incest you describe is very much like what I remember reading . . . that this kind of "ideal love" between parent and child, where the parent is actually getting their own needs met by controling the child, is the kind of environment in which people become sociopaths.
I absolutely agree that this seems to be the dynamic with the Anthonys.
I feel so bad for your young relative. Could you print out your post and send it to him? Is there any way he might be willing to go to counseling with you? It can be hard for people to take that first step to get help. But the sooner the better.
I absolutely agree that this seems to be the dynamic with the Anthonys.
I feel so bad for your young relative. Could you print out your post and send it to him? Is there any way he might be willing to go to counseling with you? It can be hard for people to take that first step to get help. But the sooner the better.
Betty Boop
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Excellent post! As for the part I bolded, brilliant observation! I remember on one of the very first jail tapes, Casey very sarcastically referred to CA's "cameo appearances" in the media. Those two are locked in a very dysfunctional dance and, as you say, both are goin' down together.
belleyes
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When you figure it out, you can email us from your private island.
If you google attachment disorders you can find a lot of info on this. I dont have a lot of time as i have been trying to birth a kidney stone but here is the synopsis...
In the first 3yrs of life the brain is growing (the most ) and cells are connecting through experiences,nutrition,environment, and love(bonding). changes in any of these can interrupt the development of the brain. Continual disruption can "rewire" the brain and set the behaviors for the future.(if not corrected) When the window of opportunity is closed it is very hard to change these behaviors. (this is a very, very , preschool version there is much more to it.
melissa311
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Reply to future_criminologist
I agree, Casey isn't mentally ill. Many people use that word casually to describe erroneous or disturbing behaviors as being a symptom of a greater mental illness. It is common for people to refer to someone who has committed an unthinkable crime, such as killing another person, as being mentally ill because it provides a level of comfort. No one wants to simply delineate a loaded word such as "sociopath" by saying that the person simply lacks a conscience but it otherwise quite similar to an average person. With that said...
Casey displays characteristics of a sociopath. She also displays characteristics of having a personality disorder. I am leaning toward her having a narcissitic personality disorder because she fits so many of the symptoms. She lies about or exaggerates her achievements and/or position in life. She is competitive when it comes to success. One of her friends indicated in the 400 page document that she always felt the need to one-up people. She takes advantage of other people. She has trouble maintaining healthy relationships. She sustains the appearance of being tough and appears to experience little to no real emotion. She fails to recognize other people's emotions and feelings. These are all symptoms of this particular disorder and not at all uncommon among sociopaths who commit crimes. There are symptoms that I cannot be sure she fits such as setting unrealistic goals for herself, being consistently jealous of others, expressing disgust or disdain for those she feels are inferior to her, believing that others admire her or are jealous of her, believing she is extraordinary or special, and of course believing she is better than other people. It would appear she fits some of those signs as well, but I am not Casey so I cannot say with any certainty.
From a psychological perspective Casey will not crack unless she feels 100% cornered and can see some conceivable way to mitigate the damages to herself. She will never talk because she feels guilty or because her actions are hurting other people. If the police had told her in the beginning that someone close to her had confessed and that the first person to reveal the location of the body would be the person to serve the least time...she probably would have confessed to save herself, provided she believed someone told on her. She did tell someone else because she believes the people who have a vested interest in her will ultimately stand by her. She's also manipulative so she holds some cards of her own. If she's confided in someone she believes that person will not tell because of their own personal involvement. She believes she is smarter than law enforcement and that if she can just keep her wits about her she will come out of this thing unscathed. She's moving on, emotionally, from whatever has happened. She probably took specific steps to do that as indicated by the 400 page document (deleting pictures of Caylee off of myspace, etc.). She is most likely irritated that there is so much focus on Caylee, but that is obviously something she'd have to keep to herself.
She isn't so much embarassed when she is caught in lies as she is annoyed that she has to come up with new ones and work harder to manipulate her subjects. One flaw that she has is that she is so sure that people will believe her lies she isn't really careful about thinking them through ahead of time. She is so confident in the way she tells lies that even when people have known she is lying in the past they have failed to call her out most of the time. This might have contributed to a false sense of security on her part, making her more apt to tell lies that are more transparent.
Law enforcement would have done well in the beginning to have Casey make a very detailed statement about what she did every single day in the dates leading up to her daughter's disappearance and the dates after. Granted, no one would ever remember everything, but coaxing her to talk and cornering her into giving information such as times, dates, places, alibis, etc. would have helped the police to pin her in a corner later on. Had Casey been asked many more open-ended questions that seemed innocuous she would have responded by giving a lot of information. Casey likes to talk and feels comforted when she is given the opportunity to speak at length about something - especially if it involves justifying her actions. She's good at talking, but again, her mouth works faster than her mind and so talking would have been a way to get information from her. Police were focused on getting truthful information from her, which is important, but they lost sight of the fact that this woman isn't really a clever liar. She kind of digs her own grave when she's given the proverbial shovel to do so. Someone needs to hand her that shovel. Unfortunately, she now has a lawyer who will make darned sure that doesn't happen.
Finding Caylee's body will have a dramatic effect on Casey. It would scare her significantly, though she will not show that fear to the average person. Once police can conclusively say that child is dead and no one can argue that the wheels in Casey's head will begin turning furiously. Finding the body gives LE the upper hand. I hope they do find Caylee. I wish I were among the minority who believe she is alive. That would be a miracle and a wonderful thing. My heart breaks for that child.
That's my two cents as far as how Casey thinks.
I agree, Casey isn't mentally ill. Many people use that word casually to describe erroneous or disturbing behaviors as being a symptom of a greater mental illness. It is common for people to refer to someone who has committed an unthinkable crime, such as killing another person, as being mentally ill because it provides a level of comfort. No one wants to simply delineate a loaded word such as "sociopath" by saying that the person simply lacks a conscience but it otherwise quite similar to an average person. With that said...
Casey displays characteristics of a sociopath. She also displays characteristics of having a personality disorder. I am leaning toward her having a narcissitic personality disorder because she fits so many of the symptoms. She lies about or exaggerates her achievements and/or position in life. She is competitive when it comes to success. One of her friends indicated in the 400 page document that she always felt the need to one-up people. She takes advantage of other people. She has trouble maintaining healthy relationships. She sustains the appearance of being tough and appears to experience little to no real emotion. She fails to recognize other people's emotions and feelings. These are all symptoms of this particular disorder and not at all uncommon among sociopaths who commit crimes. There are symptoms that I cannot be sure she fits such as setting unrealistic goals for herself, being consistently jealous of others, expressing disgust or disdain for those she feels are inferior to her, believing that others admire her or are jealous of her, believing she is extraordinary or special, and of course believing she is better than other people. It would appear she fits some of those signs as well, but I am not Casey so I cannot say with any certainty.
From a psychological perspective Casey will not crack unless she feels 100% cornered and can see some conceivable way to mitigate the damages to herself. She will never talk because she feels guilty or because her actions are hurting other people. If the police had told her in the beginning that someone close to her had confessed and that the first person to reveal the location of the body would be the person to serve the least time...she probably would have confessed to save herself, provided she believed someone told on her. She did tell someone else because she believes the people who have a vested interest in her will ultimately stand by her. She's also manipulative so she holds some cards of her own. If she's confided in someone she believes that person will not tell because of their own personal involvement. She believes she is smarter than law enforcement and that if she can just keep her wits about her she will come out of this thing unscathed. She's moving on, emotionally, from whatever has happened. She probably took specific steps to do that as indicated by the 400 page document (deleting pictures of Caylee off of myspace, etc.). She is most likely irritated that there is so much focus on Caylee, but that is obviously something she'd have to keep to herself.
She isn't so much embarassed when she is caught in lies as she is annoyed that she has to come up with new ones and work harder to manipulate her subjects. One flaw that she has is that she is so sure that people will believe her lies she isn't really careful about thinking them through ahead of time. She is so confident in the way she tells lies that even when people have known she is lying in the past they have failed to call her out most of the time. This might have contributed to a false sense of security on her part, making her more apt to tell lies that are more transparent.
Law enforcement would have done well in the beginning to have Casey make a very detailed statement about what she did every single day in the dates leading up to her daughter's disappearance and the dates after. Granted, no one would ever remember everything, but coaxing her to talk and cornering her into giving information such as times, dates, places, alibis, etc. would have helped the police to pin her in a corner later on. Had Casey been asked many more open-ended questions that seemed innocuous she would have responded by giving a lot of information. Casey likes to talk and feels comforted when she is given the opportunity to speak at length about something - especially if it involves justifying her actions. She's good at talking, but again, her mouth works faster than her mind and so talking would have been a way to get information from her. Police were focused on getting truthful information from her, which is important, but they lost sight of the fact that this woman isn't really a clever liar. She kind of digs her own grave when she's given the proverbial shovel to do so. Someone needs to hand her that shovel. Unfortunately, she now has a lawyer who will make darned sure that doesn't happen.
Finding Caylee's body will have a dramatic effect on Casey. It would scare her significantly, though she will not show that fear to the average person. Once police can conclusively say that child is dead and no one can argue that the wheels in Casey's head will begin turning furiously. Finding the body gives LE the upper hand. I hope they do find Caylee. I wish I were among the minority who believe she is alive. That would be a miracle and a wonderful thing. My heart breaks for that child.
That's my two cents as far as how Casey thinks.
OneLostGrl
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I agree with you 100%!
And Casey's mind will go into such over-drive when the body is found! It will be interesting to watch..
BeavisMom62
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Too funny you should mention that! I was just thinking that yesterday when I was watching her on the news. I can't put my finger on it either, but there is "that look".
Sherbie
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Feeding off each other...that's perfect. Definitely the situation with my family members I mentioned above. I don't think they even realize it. It's just the way it's always been.
About the totally good or totally bad thing, that therapist told me that's one element of Borderline Personality Disorder. They will either idolize a person or think they're pure evil, practically...sort of no gray area or in-between for them.
I think Cindy was being her usual forceful self in threatening Casey to produce Caylee...then once she realized during that 911 call -- when it really dawned on her that this wasn't just a Casey-game -- it was too late to turn back. But it didn't take her long to get back to trying rescue Casey!
Sherbie
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Thank you very much, wedavis! I'm not sure what I make of Cindy telling Casey's friend that she's a sociopath. There had to be some purpose it served for her to do that.
First thoughts -- (1) it was some way to excuse a behavior by Casey, even if she had to put her down to accomplish it; (2) if it was during the period Casey and Caylee were missing, Cindy was pissed at her for keeping Caylee from her and either (a) just let it rip because she was mad or (b) said it to make Casey look bad in hopes the friend would feel sorry for Cindy and rat her out if he knew something; (3) she recognizes Casey's behavior for what it is and was being honest, but still with a purpose in doing so.
I think it could fit into the dynamic because she was trying to regain control of the relationship, maybe? We're getting way above my head here. All I know is what I've observed and what that therapist told me...so I am just trying to put Cindy in the grandma's place and imagine why she might do such a thing, since I know her. I am only guessing!
What do you think? I always enjoy your posts and would love to hear your opinions, too -- especially since you know something about psychobabble.
:seeya:
Sherbie
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Thank you so much, One! I'm so sorry you had to endure that type of relationship. It's toxic...and there's no way for a child to put a stop to it unless someone steps in -- and even then, still very difficult.
Thanks for the info on Bipolar, too. Maybe he said it could trigger or exacerbate it instead of cause it. It's been several years, and I didn't do any research before posting. I am going to read up more on that when I get a chance.
Glad you were able to get past the anger...it's very hard sometimes to forgive, but it releases US when we do! :rose:
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