Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #5

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~n/t~ said:
Just reading your post made me realize how some silly games that were so innocent back in my days growing up have suddenly become taboo.

My brother had toy soldiers, play guns, water guns. He and his buddies would play cops and robbers. Playing pretend shooting at each other.

What happened? These kids didn't grow up violent nor did they ever murder anyone.

There is much more going on in today's society. I wish I had the answers.
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BBM
So jails were void of murderers until recently?
 
On the issue of mental illness: Yes, Aspergers is not a mental illness, but it does involve social isolation and problems with communication that might make it very difficult to detect and treat a mental illness. You can have autism AND a mental illness at the same time. AL was at an age when serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder often emerge.

But the fact is that we know from history that it is possible to commit horrible crimes and not be mentally ill, at least not to the point where the mental illness is the full explanation for the crime. This is actually pretty hard to accept in this case. You just want to believe that no one could kill those innocent children if they really had control of their actions and impulses and knew it was wrong. But people do it.

Look at Timothy McVeigh or Julio Gonzalez or Anders Breivik. They all had reasons that seemed to make sense to them, political or personal. They understood what they were doing even if they might technically have been diagnosable with a mental illness such as depression or anxiety disorders.
 
Ronso said:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

children today are still "spanked"/assaulted ".
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LOL..thanks for proving my point..a Spanking is not Assault
Unfortunately, seeing people equate spanking (particularly when it is a controlled and predictable consequence for the child) with full-on physical abuse only serves to render the term “abuse” completely meaningless. That’s akin to saying that scolding a child = verbal abuse. Look up photos of abused kids and tell me that the results of those beatings are even on the same planet as a typical spanked child.
If parents who yell at their kids are not automatically verbally abusive, then parents who spank are not automatically physically abusive. This sort of thing is all a matter of degree.
It amazes me that parents sometimes fight with children for 45 minutes using timeouts and other reasoning techniques, but a couple of swats on the rear and an explanation of the reasoning behind the spanking will snap them out of misbehavior in 30 seconds. They are not afraid afterward. Take the time to explain how this was a consequence they chose because they refused to control their behavior when given the chances beforehand. It’s not some bad scene from a horror film, it’s a powerful teachable moment.
 
Ronso said:
BBM
So jails were void of murderers until recently?
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand your question. Do you think playing with toy guns at a young age is what caused them to be incarcerated?
 
Ronso said:
BBM
So jails were void of murderers until recently?
Click to expand...

LOL!

Absolutely not. There have always been murderers even mass murderers and that will continue. The worst mass murderer of elementary children was in Michigan in 1927. It is still the largest lost of life in a school.

Criminals dont repect the law nor abide by them either.

In fact if irrc the peak of violent crime was in the early 1990s but has declined in the last five years.

imo
 
TDEAN30 said:
I don't know if this is the place to post, but I have a question: I do have a question or curiosity about all this..For those that have been watching the news, we have all heard there is a big issue on Mental illness!! I am curious is it really a mental illness that drives people to do this? If so why the big spurt in the past 10yrs. I know mental illness has been around for a long time, but in the 80's and 90's there were no mass shootings anywhere, it was basically unheard of, yea you had one here and there (maybe) but I feel these days if someone does something, automatically it's a mental illness. To me people use it as an excuse way to much. If you did something wrong 15 yrs ago, you were just BAD! Now lawyers use it as a defense when clearly there is nothing wrong with some (not all) of the people who commit crimes. I think it has more to do with Diciplining, parents not and not being able to..Please don't think I take mental issues lightly because I don't but people are perscribes so many different medications for ANYTHING, oh he shot someone he must be crazy, he must have mental issues. I get for some but not for everyone, some people are just evil. When growing up If I got into trouble I would get the paddle at school, then when I got home, when I spent the night with friends, if I did something wrong not only did they have permission by my parents to discipline me, but then I got it when I got home for disrespecting someone else. Was I beat? No Abused, NO? I got disciplined taught right from wrong, I was taught the ins and out of the world. Now kids know they can get away with anything, because if they get spanked, they know they can call the police, or CPS..So I am trying to figure out where it all went wrong? It can soley be mental issues, to me that's a slap in the face for people that really have mental issues..Most people are just evil bad people who don't care..that's the world we live in
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BBM

I am really glad you asked the question why the big spurt in the last 10 years. Something about that just got me thinking.

We have always had troubled kids in school. We have always had mentally ill kids in school and we have always had guns around.

What has changed? I think you have to go back 20 to 25 years and look at what has really changed in the life of a student. That puts you back to when the Columbine shooters first started school.

Schools are a very big part of the molding and shaping of a student and in any serious discussion of this problem they have to be looked at too. What has changed in teaching and learning in the last 20 to 25 years.

I know 20 years or so ago I pulled my youngest daughter out of school because they went to a method of teaching that involved teams. All school work was being done in teams and rewards handed out for the best teams and best team players. My daughter is very smart and she was always the team leader and her team was always winning the special gifts and prizes.

Well what we ended up with was an 9 year old coming home in tears, she had trouble sleeping and started getting "sick" not wanting to go to school. The stress was to much. The strain of the team, the focus on the wins and the anger towards other team members and guilt for that anger was to much for her. We pulled her out of school and home schooled her till high school.

Now this is the effect this team teaching had on a very good student. What is the effect it has on the poor student or the troubled student or the ones with a mental illness?

How wide spread is this teaching method? Maybe it would be worth going back in these shooters school records and see how they were taught.
 
~n/t~ said:
Not sure I understand your question. Do you think playing with toy guns at a young age is what caused them to be incarcerated?
Click to expand...

No.

Millions of kids can do the same thing and hurt no one ever and then someone can do the same thing and go out and go on a rampage. That shows me it is ALL about the individual mineset of each individual murderer.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Wasnt Columbine in the 90s? There was a ban in place at the time I believe on assault rifles when Columbine happened.
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As I said in the post, it was rare, you had them every now and then (columbine) is obviously in the every now and then..It did not happen every other week like it does now
 
Have been following the thread but haven't posted until now.

It seems like it was an "us against the world" with the mother/son. Not necessarily in a hostile way, but an isolation with the son's mental illness and/or autism dx.

I've wondered from the beginning if the brother wasn't removed from the situation more for protection rather than estranged.

Since hearing of the mother's MS dx, and how future plans were being made for son, is it possible that she was getting worse medically and they were trying to figure out the next chapter? MS becomes so debilitating and if son was as dependent on her as it is being portrayed, how would life go on for them?

As a mother of a developmentally delayed child, I know that "what happens to my child after I am gone" is a constant thought that goes through a mother's head.
 
Heck some people think Coyote and Road Runner are violent. What about Taz the tasmanian devil? Destruction in its path. The cookie monster and Oscar the grouch.

All I'm saying is these are ridiculous excuses to cover up the REAL issue. Just like video games, movies and music. They don't make one kill.
 
TDEAN30 said:
LOL..thanks for proving my point..a Spanking is not Assault
Unfortunately, seeing people equate spanking (particularly when it is a controlled and predictable consequence for the child) with full-on physical abuse only serves to render the term “abuse” completely meaningless. That’s akin to saying that scolding a child = verbal abuse. Look up photos of abused kids and tell me that the results of those beatings are even on the same planet as a typical spanked child.
If parents who yell at their kids are not automatically verbally abusive, then parents who spank are not automatically physically abusive. This sort of thing is all a matter of degree.
It amazes me that parents sometimes fight with children for 45 minutes using timeouts and other reasoning techniques, but a couple of swats on the rear and an explanation of the reasoning behind the spanking will snap them out of misbehavior in 30 seconds. They are not afraid afterward. Take the time to explain how this was a consequence they chose because they refused to control their behavior when given the chances beforehand. It’s not some bad scene from a horror film, it’s a powerful teachable moment.
Click to expand...

bbm, isn't that the truth.
This is where we lost control of our children, when disciplining and abuse were looked at as being the same. jmo
 
TDEAN30 said:
I don't know if this is the place to post, but I have a question: I do have a question or curiosity about all this..For those that have been watching the news, we have all heard there is a big issue on Mental illness!! I am curious is it really a mental illness that drives people to do this? If so why the big spurt in the past 10yrs. I know mental illness has been around for a long time, but in the 80's and 90's there were no mass shootings anywhere, it was basically unheard of, yea you had one here and there (maybe) but I feel these days if someone does something, automatically it's a mental illness. To me people use it as an excuse way to much. If you did something wrong 15 yrs ago, you were just BAD! Now lawyers use it as a defense when clearly there is nothing wrong with some (not all) of the people who commit crimes. I think it has more to do with Diciplining, parents not and not being able to..Please don't think I take mental issues lightly because I don't but people are perscribes so many different medications for ANYTHING, oh he shot someone he must be crazy, he must have mental issues. I get for some but not for everyone, some people are just evil. When growing up If I got into trouble I would get the paddle at school, then when I got home, when I spent the night with friends, if I did something wrong not only did they have permission by my parents to discipline me, but then I got it when I got home for disrespecting someone else. Was I beat? No Abused, NO? I got disciplined taught right from wrong, I was taught the ins and out of the world. Now kids know they can get away with anything, because if they get spanked, they know they can call the police, or CPS..So I am trying to figure out where it all went wrong? It can soley be mental issues, to me that's a slap in the face for people that really have mental issues..Most people are just evil bad people who don't care..that's the world we live in
Click to expand...




maybe the sput isnt so much more the reporting of such cases are more, at least in part that has something to do with it, prior to 1995 when the internet really took off news was limited to the local newspapers and what you saw on ABC, CBS etc etc.

I did see where a young boy got a gun in 1986 in England and blew away 16 kids or so. It probably has happened since time began and now that the population is more, reporting is more, people own more guns, that has to be at least some of the reason it seems worse.
 
~n/t~ said:
Heck some people think Coyote and Road Runner are violent. What about Taz the tasmanian devil? Destruction in its path. The cookie monster and Oscar the grouch.

All I'm saying is these are ridiculous excuses to cover up the REAL issue. Just like video games, movies and music. They don't make one kill.
Click to expand...

ITA!

Because if those things really were trigger factors we would see millions who watch these same things become murderers and they dont. Also thousands perhaps millions of children grow up with guns in their homes yet the overwhelming vast majority never harm another soul.

Our violent crime rate has declined........not gone up.

I actually think it is much more about attention seeking for individuals that never made a footprint of their own in their lives. So they know they are going to commit suicide but also realize that will only get them a blip in an Obit somewhere. This way they can kill themselves but take other innocents with them making their once unknown name........known forever even if it is imfamously.

IMO
 
TDEAN30 said:
LOL..thanks for proving my point..a Spanking is not Assault
Unfortunately, seeing people equate spanking (particularly when it is a controlled and predictable consequence for the child) with full-on physical abuse only serves to render the term “abuse” completely meaningless. That’s akin to saying that scolding a child = verbal abuse. Look up photos of abused kids and tell me that the results of those beatings are even on the same planet as a typical spanked child.
If parents who yell at their kids are not automatically verbally abusive, then parents who spank are not automatically physically abusive. This sort of thing is all a matter of degree.
It amazes me that parents sometimes fight with children for 45 minutes using timeouts and other reasoning techniques, but a couple of swats on the rear and an explanation of the reasoning behind the spanking will snap them out of misbehavior in 30 seconds. They are not afraid afterward. Take the time to explain how this was a consequence they chose because they refused to control their behavior when given the chances beforehand. It’s not some bad scene from a horror film, it’s a powerful teachable moment.
Click to expand...

It's semantics. I personally think "spanking" is a cutesy name that people use to describe the physical striking/hitting of a child by someone far stronger than they are. It makes people feel better to give it a different name that, to their conscience, doesn't sound as bad. If that's your semantic distinction, so be it. But "spanking" and "abuse" are human created words that mean whatever we've assigned them to mean. A physical strike against their body might hurt them enough to make them stop their behavior in the moment, sure, if the parents have no other parenting skills but physical force to teach their children about behavior. On the other hand, observe how many people you've seen walloping their children over and over in Walmart or a restaurant parking lot as the kid continues to scream and whine and even ups it a notch.

Also - just because parents don't physically hit their child doesn't mean they're automatically arguing with their child for 45 minutes about time out. That's a complete logical fallacy. I don't hit my children but have never once argued with them about whether they did or did not want to attend a time out. It takes a lot more work to find humane but absolutely firm ways to parent, granted. I'm willing to invest that effort.

IMO if someone has no other way to ensure their child doesn't "get away with absolutely anything" other than physically striking them, then that person needs to learn some serious parenting skills.
 
Dr Phil is in CT and he speaking at the home of one of the parents.
 
"LOL..thanks for proving my point..a Spanking is not Assault"

Um, how is it not? You're hitting a child. If you hit an adult, it's assault. Why is it not okay for me to punch someone in the face for being a raving jerk, but it's acceptable for me to hit my child for pushing boundaries or "breaking rules"?

It's interesting. I've never had to hit my kids to get them to behave. I'd rather them behave because it's the right thing... not because they fear getting hit.

Again, and I've reiterated this point before on this topic, please find me prisoners who were raised with parents who didn't assault them, oh I'm sorry, I mean SPANK them.
 
oceanblueeyes said:
No.

Millions of kids can do the same thing and hurt no one ever and then someone can do the same thing and go out and go on a rampage. That shows me it is ALL about the individual mineset of each individual murderer.

IMO
Click to expand...

Exactly. The underlying problem is not toys, video games, music .......

Another problem I see is the immediate dispencing of medication without proper diagnosis. A child acts up in class and they're immediately labeled ADD or ADHA and pumped with ritalin. Yes perhaps some kids do need it but how many are misdiagnosed and this was a quick fix ?

Like I said, I don't have the answers but clearly there is something horribly wrong when a presumably smart kid with some awkwardness (as is being described) decides to get up one morning and kill his mom in cold blood while she's in bed and then decides to assasinate a classroom full of children and teachers.
 
I remember after Columbine a 6 yr old kid got arrested for pointing a gun shaped chicken McNugget at his lunchroom classmate. I expect to see this in the news again as we tend to overreact then have a shorterm memory and forget so fast :-/
 
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