Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

[rashomon]

There is evidence of where most of this took place.

I don't know, but I would be willing to bet on the following:

Ever notice in the pictures of the basement, it shows lots of different kinds of pipe running close to the ceiling? Here's an example showing the water heater area (which of course is going to have more):
http://www.acandyrose.com/073boiler-room.jpg
Okay, the area outside the room where JonBenet's body was later found by John is where the "wooden shards" were found. It's also where the urine stain was found. I have not seen a picture of the ceiling in that particular area, but I would be willing to bet that right above the urine stain is an overhead pipe.

How about BPD? Have they checked? (I know they are reading this.)
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If the BPD are reading this, here is another crucial question for them: have the ligatures been tested for DNA? If yes, what did you find?
I bet if the ligature showed any DNA not from a Ramsey, it would already have been made public.

 

[otg]

But woudn't the urine stains in the basement indicate the place where JonBenet died, with the bladder evacuating urine at that final moment?

Yes.

And it's about time for you to check in, rashomon. I've been anxiously anticipating your take on all this. What say you?
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[otg]

If the BPD are reading this, here is another crucial question for them: have the ligatures been tested for DNA? If yes, what did you find?
I bet if the ligature showed any DNA not from a Ramsey, it would already have been made public.

Good question. I've wondered that myself. Can they do testing for DNA on the cord without destroying it as evidence to be used in any other way? I don't know enough about the process of gathering material for DNA testing (and frankly, really wasn't looking forward to having to do a lot of research into another area that I'm not very familiar with). Any DNA deposited inside the knots would of course be very telling, but in order to get to it, the knots would have to be untied. Yes?

Anyone?
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[rashomon]

Yes.

And it's about time for you to check in, rashomon. I've been anxiously anticipating your take on all this. What say you?
.

Imo the urine stains in the basement indicate that JonBenet expired in that location. Can anyone post the basement plan of the house and mark the exact spot where those stains were found? Was it near Patsy's paint tote, on the carpet?

 

[otg]

Imo the urine stains in the basement indicate that JonBenet expired in that location. Can anyone post the basement plan of the house and mark the exact spot where those stains were found? Was it near where the paint tray was, on the carpet?

Yes. I believe it was.
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[rashomon]

Yes. I believe it was.

You are right, otg. I just found the basement plan KK posted on FFJ:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9777"]Ramsey home: Basement photos - Forums For Justice[/ame]


So the urine stains were right outside the wine cellar door, in close location to the paint tray. JonBenet died there imo, and the body was later placed in the wine cellar.

 

[DeeDee249]

There appears to be no actual evidence of where she was killed. The urine stain outside the WC is used to indicate the location, however, it is just as likely that it was in her bed (sheets were not checked and anyhow she wet the bed regularly) or it may have even been elsewhere. The broken shards of paintbrush in the tote are only evidence of where the brush was broken.

The sheets from her bed WERE removed by LE and taken into evidence. Creatinine (evidence of dried urine) were found, but can't be determined exactly when they were left, because they were already dried.
One of the crime photos of JB's room shows the bed stripped of the sheets.

I'd say the combination of the urine stains proximity to the paint tote, JB's hair and necklace wound into the garrote and knot at the back of her neck (indicating it was made right on her, as she lay on her stomach), the anterior urine stains on he longjohns and panties (indicating she was also on her stomach when her bladder voided at death) and the carpet fibers from that same basement carpet found on JB ALL tell me that she was on her stomach in that location near the paint tote just outside the W as the garrote was made, and that is where the life was finally squeezed out of her.

 

[DeeDee249]

But I’m not an expert. That’s why I depend on people like you to tell me if I’m wrong. And I truly do appreciate being told if I am.

Now. Since you’ve been so good, and so helpful, I’ll turn over the card I referred to earlier (my “wiggle-room” in the time sequence): How long does it take from the TOD for someone to be wakened from a sound sleep?

Remember Patsy’s statement: “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” Remember that investigators did sound tests to see if Melody Stanton could hear in her house across the street a sound from the Ramsey basement that couldn’t be heard on the third floor of the Ramsey home? They didn’t release their findings, but in PMPT Schiller claimed that because of the basement vent, that was the case.

How much time would that be from TOD until Patsy was wakened, if the person who caused it to happen had to be the one to wake her after he decided it was something that had to be done?
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I am not an expert either. But I am confused by your question, so I'll try to answer what I THINK you are asking, OK?
As far as the test that was run on sound from the basement- yes, it was determined that it COULD be heard from the Stanton's home across the street but it could also be head from the parents' bedroom on the third floor.
The point to this being, of course, that if the scream reached the parents' bedroom and they were there, they would have heard it even it they were asleep. If it woke up the neighbor, it would have woke them up as well. As to Patsy's rhetorical question- well, she DID hear "her baby". If you go back and watch PMPT, you can see the re-enactment of that test, with some LE up in the parents' room, some across the street and some in the basement near the vent. The LE on the third floor say that they CAN hear the scream.
I believe Patsy was not asleep that night at all, so your question about how long from the TOD, etc. doesn't factor in my theories, but if you mean "how long from someone ELSE killing her and waking Patsy", then probably about 10 minutes or so- enough time for livor mortis to begin to form.

 

[MurriFlower]

The sheets from her bed WERE removed by LE and taken into evidence. Creatinine (evidence of dried urine) were found, but can't be determined exactly when they were left, because they were already dried.
One of the crime photos of JB's room shows the bed stripped of the sheets.

I'd say the combination of the urine stains proximity to the paint tote, JB's hair and necklace wound into the garrote and knot at the back of her neck (indicating it was made right on her, as she lay on her stomach), the anterior urine stains on he longjohns and panties (indicating she was also on her stomach when her bladder voided at death) and the carpet fibers from that same basement carpet found on JB ALL tell me that she was on her stomach in that location near the paint tote just outside the W as the garrote was made, and that is where the life was finally squeezed out of her.

I'm aware that you and many others assume that she died there, but my question was about the evidence, aside from a stain that may or may not be urine and if so, the urine stain may or may not have been from JBR and it may or may not have been made on that night.

Do you get the question I am asking?? What, aside from the stain and the wood from the broken stick (neither of which are conclusive) rules out her having been killed in another location, for example, her bedroom or even outside the home. Remember, there was fiber from the rope found on her bedclothes.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm aware that you and many others assume that she died there, but my question was about the evidence, aside from a stain that may or may not be urine and if so, the urine stain may or may not have been from JBR and it may or may not have been made on that night.

Do you get the question I am asking?? What, aside from the stain and the wood from the broken stick (neither of which are conclusive) rules out her having been killed in another location, for example, her bedroom or even outside the home. Remember, there was fiber from the rope found on her bedclothes.

MurriFlower,

Nothing. She may have been killed elsewhere in the house. The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene that was re-staged.

Its purpose is to deceive you, any theory based on it e.g. IDI is likely to be wrong.


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[UKGuy]

If the BPD are reading this, here is another crucial question for them: have the ligatures been tested for DNA? If yes, what did you find?
I bet if the ligature showed any DNA not from a Ramsey, it would already have been made public.

rashomon,

Possibly not since it is incriminating and could have been used on the stand against PR. Similar applies to JR his dna present on the ligature is incriminating but not conclusive, but in court he would be asked : "Have you ever seen exhibit x before Mr Ramsey" he replies "No sir" he is then asked "So could you explain to the court Mr Ramsey how your dna came to be deposited upon the ligature?"

So certain evidence will remain sealed in case of a court case.


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[DeeDee249]

I'm aware that you and many others assume that she died there, but my question was about the evidence, aside from a stain that may or may not be urine and if so, the urine stain may or may not have been from JBR and it may or may not have been made on that night.

Do you get the question I am asking?? What, aside from the stain and the wood from the broken stick (neither of which are conclusive) rules out her having been killed in another location, for example, her bedroom or even outside the home. Remember, there was fiber from the rope found on her bedclothes.

True that the urine stain cannot be "dated" as to when it was left. I know her sheets were tested for urine, and as LE had JB's DNA profile, it would have been obvious if the urine belonged to someone else. The stain on the carpet WAS tested and found to be urine. I can't imagine when else it would have been made if not that night. Can it be proved? No. But I am looking at everything I stated in my post, not just the urine stain. So to answer your question (I think)- it is not a matter of these things EXCLUDING her being killed elsewhere, but the combination of all these things (urine stain on carpet, same carpet fibers found on her body, anterior urine stains on her clothing indicating she was on her stomach when she voided) and nearby paint tote with brush remains and wood shards matching the brush, the garrote cord being obviously tied at the back of her neck- ALL this convinces me she was lying on her stomach in that carpeted area of the basement just outside the WC when she was killed. Can I prove it? No. No one can. Can it be surmised? Sure. No one can ever prove where she was killed in the house. House gone. Evidence gone. Rice already cooked.
There was NO fiber from the garrote CORD found in her bed. There were fibers from a hemp ROPE found. No rope of this type was found in the crime scene or on the body but a rope of this type was allegedly found in JAR's bedroom. There is a photo of JB dressed in jeans with pigtails in a "Western or country-type" photo- this exact type of hemp rope was seen in that photo with her, as a "lasso" or "lariat" in keeping with her Western theme. Cute photo. How tragic....
There is NO forensic evidence suggesting the garrote cord was made in her bedroom, and the fallacy of the cord fibers in her bed are right up there with the fallacy that an unknown pubic hair was found on the blanket and an unknown palm print was found on a basement door. These were all found to be (respectively) fibers from the brown hemp rope found in JAR's room (and NOT the cord fibers), a forearm hair belonging to Patsy Ramsey (and NOT an unknown pubic hair) and the print was found to belong to Melinda Ramsey and presumed left at an earlier time.

 

[BBB167893]

PMPT
reenactment, LS & garotte, (7:31)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOeWMSF62IM&feature=related

rope is double looped around neck
and palm on shoulder is used to create tension as other hand pulls handle.
IDI kneels as he pulls rope, is able to look at JBR's face.

Except the person would not have to look at her face if they thought she was already dead.

Also, "some people are capable of anything at all." That's wrong.

ANYBODY is capable of anything at all.

 

[BBB167893]

that is he did the best he could to convict the parents and was foiled by their lawyers and the DA. Some take this as fact.

I have no reason not to.

 

[cynic]

Can they do testing for DNA on the cord without destroying it as evidence to be used in any other way?

Yes

I don't know enough about the process of gathering material for DNA testing (and frankly, really wasn't looking forward to having to do a lot of research into another area that I'm not very familiar with). Any DNA deposited inside the knots would of course be very telling, but in order to get to it, the knots would have to be untied. Yes?

Yes, and no. You don’t have to because you could just collect cells from the visible surface area. I would, however, untie them because the knots would, of necessity, be the portion of the cord that would be the most extensively handled and, consequently, you would try to sample as much of that area as possible in order to maximize the probability of obtaining a usable profile.
ETA: If the sample was strictly from the “hidden” portions of the knots it would vastly increase the probative value, the risk, however, would be low sample size and the inability to obtain a profile

 

[cynic]

Regarding the urine stain(s) outside the WC; everyone should keep in mind that the only “source” for this is Jameson.

 

[Chrishope]

There is evidence of where most of this took place.

I don't know, but I would be willing to bet on the following:

Ever notice in the pictures of the basement, it shows lots of different kinds of pipe running close to the ceiling? Here's an example showing the water heater area (which of course is going to have more):
http://www.acandyrose.com/073boiler-room.jpg
Okay, the area outside the room where JonBenet's body was later found by John is where the "wooden shards" were found. It's also where the urine stain was found. I have not seen a picture of the ceiling in that particular area, but I would be willing to bet that right above the urine stain is an overhead pipe.

How about BPD? Have they checked? (I know they are reading this.)
.

Maybe. No use speculating really, as pipes could go here or there, but not everywhere. Checking the floor plan of other levels would indicate whether or not there are rooms requiring water directly above where the stains were found. I'm too lazy to bother right now.

At this point you are positing an accidental or unconventional hanging. I can't wait to hear the rest of the theory.

I'm not ruling it out, but I remain unconvinced.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Maybe. No use speculating really, as pipes could go here or there, but not everywhere. Checking the floor plan of other levels would indicate whether or not there are rooms requiring water directly above where the stains were found. I'm too lazy to bother right now.

At this point you are positing an accidental or unconventional hanging. I can't wait to hear the rest of the theory.

I'm not ruling it out, but I remain unconvinced.

Who was it that once said on tv that she was "cut down" or something like that? I recall someone saying that, I thought it was Henry Lee or maybe John Welsh...anyone remember?

 

[Chrishope]

In posts above, people have said that John Walsh said it. I didn't know about his statement until today.

 

[otg]

Maybe. No use speculating really, as pipes could go here or there, but not everywhere. Checking the floor plan of other levels would indicate whether or not there are rooms requiring water directly above where the stains were found. I'm too lazy to bother right now.

At this point you are positing an accidental or unconventional hanging. I can't wait to hear the rest of the theory.

I'm not ruling it out, but I remain unconvinced.

Mine is only one of many theories, but I feel it is based on the evidence we know and not the speculation and rumors. That's why I thought we should look first at only the evidence we know: the cords and the knots -- see what that tells us, and then find a theory that fits with everything else.

I will look forward to convincing you, Chrishope.
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