Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

[otg]

ALL this convinces me she was lying on her stomach in that carpeted area of the basement just outside the WC when she was killed. Can I prove it? No. No one can. Can it be surmised? Sure. No one can ever prove where she was killed in the house. House gone. Evidence gone. Rice already cooked.

:bow:

Love it!​

.

 

[CathyR]

Yes

Yes, and no. You don’t have to because you could just collect cells from the visible surface area. I would, however, untie them because the knots would, of necessity, be the portion of the cord that would be the most extensively handled and, consequently, you would try to sample as much of that area as possible in order to maximize the probability of obtaining a usable profile.
ETA: If the sample was strictly from the “hidden” portions of the knots it would vastly increase the probative value, the risk, however, would be low sample size and the inability to obtain a profile

I don't think the knots themselves would contain as much DNA as the area the killer handled tying the knot, a little further away from the knot.The place he held to tighten the knots. That area would have received the most pressure and friction as he tightened the knot. I don't think tying that particular knot requires a person to handle all the wraps. Or hold them in place till secured. The paintbrush did that. If he wore gloves to do this ????? They said they scraped the long johns so I'm assuming they could scrape both sides of the cord looking.

 

[Toltec]

How could JonBenet die upstairs and wait until she got to the basement to void?

If it is a fact that there was indeed urine stains near the wine cellar, than it is like DeeDee stated how she died.

 

[otg]

Regarding the urine stain(s) outside the WC; everyone should keep in mind that the only “source” for this is Jameson.

No, I didn't know that. Probably not the only thing we have somehow come to accept as fact that is questionable. Is there no second source for the information on the urine in the basement?

And thanks, cynic, for the info on DNA sampling. And thanks to CathyR too. A lot of what you said makes sense.
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[joeskidbeck]

Regarding the urine stain(s) outside the WC; everyone should keep in mind that the only “source” for this is Jameson.

Cynic, if this is true, then I have to file this under "Spin". I cannot believe one word from this woman's mouth as we all know her main objective was to paint the Ramseys as pure and innocent. This is sad because if it is true about the urine stain being in the basement, there has to be a reason for Jameson stating it. Do you have any idea where I can find it at her site? As bad as I hate to, I will go there to see what I can find out about it.

 

[Ames]

The red ring going all the way around the neck is where the final strangulation occurred.
Hanging victims have an area of what is called discontinuity. It will be located at the area of the knot or where the rope made it's upward turn. Because the body is hanging and gravity is in effect the rope does not make a complete mark around the neck thus the term discontinuity. The mark is not continuous (completely around the neck) in hanging as opposed to strangling.

John Walsh can make mistakes, and may have been shown crime scene photos that made him assume she was hung as no explanation followed. Sometimes our technical world fails we get the picture but no audio. I am sure he was contacted and asked to get involved. AMW is a fantastic source of support and information for parents of missing, exploited, and murdered children. They have some rules however and before any parental support is offered they want the police to tell them if the parents are going to be charged. They do not wish for their organizations that assist them to be the "tool" of a guilty parent. John has made statements about how much the media attention focusing on the parents was wrong.

Yes, he has made those statements...and I find it quite ironic that the Ramsey's NEVER even once went onto his show AMW and asked for help in finding their daughter's killer. The only reason that JW made those statements, is because of how he and his wife were placed in the same position after the murder of their son, Adam. But...these two cases were absolutely nothing alike. Adam wasn't killed inside his OWN home, and left in the basement...with his sleeping parents and brother upstairs. The media and police focused on HIM wrongly....not so with the Ramseys.

 

[Tadpole12]

Mine is only one of many theories, but I feel it is based on the evidence we know and not the speculation and rumors. That's why I thought we should look first at only the evidence we know: the cords and the knots -- see what that tells us, and then find a theory that fits with everything else.

I will look forward to convincing you, Chrishope.
.

Heyya otg.

Here are some rough measurements of sizing, for your consideration.

Neck (width):
http://www.fibergypsy.com/common/children.shtml


sizing:
http://www.knitting-and.com/knitting/tips/sizing.htm

http://www.craftyarncouncil.com/childsize.html

Child (3 - 10 years)
Head Circumference: 19" - 20 1/2" :
http://www.bevscountrycottage.com/size-chart.html

 

[Tadpole12]

Artist brush sizes:

http://painting.about.com/od/artsupplies/ig/Intro-to-Art-Paint-Brushes/Brushes-Sizes1.htm

noting the variation between manufactures,
my no 10 brush measures
6 1/4 inches from tip to ferrule, with a total length of 8 1/4 inches from tip to `toe`.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=180019&postcount=5"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Ramsey home: Basement photos[/ame]

at 400 mag, looks like a jagged piece of wood remains in the ferrule.

 

[DeeDee249]

The broken brush in the tote is blue. The piece used to make the garrote seems like the blue paint has been "whittled" away, doesn't it? Wasn't there a resident "whittler" in the house? And his "whittling" knife found in the basement? Yep. Thought so.

 

[MurriFlower]

The broken brush in the tote is blue. The piece used to make the garrote seems like the blue paint has been "whittled" away, doesn't it? Wasn't there a resident "whittler" in the house? And his "whittling" knife found in the basement? Yep. Thought so.

No, I think the brush was basically just varnished wood, with some blue paint on it. It has been 'whittled' and looks weathered also.

The broken shard of brush is in the tote beside a blue brush, and I think this is where you got confused.

 

[MurriFlower]

True that the urine stain cannot be "dated" as to when it was left. I know her sheets were tested for urine, and as LE had JB's DNA profile, it would have been obvious if the urine belonged to someone else. The stain on the carpet WAS tested and found to be urine. I can't imagine when else it would have been made if not that night. Can it be proved? No. But I am looking at everything I stated in my post, not just the urine stain. So to answer your question (I think)- it is not a matter of these things EXCLUDING her being killed elsewhere, but the combination of all these things (urine stain on carpet, same carpet fibers found on her body, anterior urine stains on her clothing indicating she was on her stomach when she voided) and nearby paint tote with brush remains and wood shards matching the brush, the garrote cord being obviously tied at the back of her neck- ALL this convinces me she was lying on her stomach in that carpeted area of the basement just outside the WC when she was killed. Can I prove it? No. No one can. Can it be surmised? Sure. No one can ever prove where she was killed in the house. House gone. Evidence gone. Rice already cooked.
There is a photo of JB dressed in jeans with pigtails in a "Western or country-type" photo- this exact type of hemp rope was seen in that photo with her, as a "lasso" or "lariat" in keeping with her Western theme. Cute photo. How tragic....
There is NO forensic evidence suggesting the garrote cord was made in her bedroom, and the fallacy of the cord fibers in her bed are right up there with the fallacy that an unknown pubic hair was found on the blanket and an unknown palm print was found on a basement door. These were all found to be (respectively) fibers from the brown hemp rope found in JAR's room (and NOT the cord fibers), a forearm hair belonging to Patsy Ramsey (and NOT an unknown pubic hair) and the print was found to belong to Melinda Ramsey and presumed left at an earlier time.

There was NO fiber from the garrote CORD found in her bed. There were fibers from a hemp ROPE found. No rope of this type was found in the crime scene or on the body but a rope of this type was allegedly found in JAR's bedroom.

I did not mention the cord, but only the ROPE.

FYI, this is the rope that was found in the room adjacent to where she was sleeping on the night she died.

Fibers from this rope were found in her bed.

How does this fit with your RDI theory DD?

There is nothing you have told me above that convinces that she may not have been originally in her bed when attacked and she may have even been killed there.

 

[Tadpole12]

The broken brush in the tote is blue. The piece used to make the garrote seems like the blue paint has been "whittled" away, doesn't it? Wasn't there a resident "whittler" in the house? And his "whittling" knife found in the basement? Yep. Thought so.

Dee Dee,

That's a dramatic difference in appearance between the two portions, ie the garotte handle and the blue brush.

I had been looking at the smaller object center of the circle .....

No, I think the brush was basically just varnished wood, with some blue paint on it. It has been 'whittled' and looks weathered also.

The broken shard of brush is in the tote beside a blue brush, and I think this is where you got confused.

yep,
okay, so the blue brush has a the same form, the bristle end, as the
large yellow brush in the upper right hand corner, and the bristle end of the blue brush was not damaged by chemicals.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=180019&postcount=5"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Ramsey home: Basement photos[/ame]

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote3.jpg

 

[Tadpole12]

Sorry, DD, you have then a good instinct for such things and the common sense to to back it up. The ability to picture in your mind the mechanics of what happens is very valuable.

Brent Turvey (in the forensic science world is a god):
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/brent/brent_cv.html

Fascinating article, otg.

"Fingernail clippings should be collected as well, but this is generally done by the ME or Coroner. The victim may have gouged her assailant and his skin may have collected under her nails. DiMaio mentions this but suggests that it "virtually never" occurs."

 

[otg]

Fascinating article, otg.

Did you like that, Tad? Care for a little more?

I remember once (believe it or not) someone actually suggesting that the following was what might have happened with JonBenet. It is sadly what happened to David Carradine:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/auto.html

Deductive Criminal Profiling:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/Profiling_law.html

Crime Reconstruction:
http://www.profiling.org/journal/vol1_no1/jbp_ed_january2000_1-1.html

A museum of mistakes in forensics:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_mis.html

And for anyone who might have missed in from the earlier post, "A GUIDE TO THE PHYSICAL ANALYSIS OF LIGATURE PATTERNS IN HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS":
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html
.

 

[otg]

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Ramsey home: Basement photos

at 400 mag, looks like a jagged piece of wood remains in the ferrule.

The broken brush in the tote is blue. The piece used to make the garrote seems like the blue paint has been "whittled" away, doesn't it? Wasn't there a resident "whittler" in the house? And his "whittling" knife found in the basement? Yep. Thought so.

No, I think the brush was basically just varnished wood, with some blue paint on it. It has been 'whittled' and looks weathered also.

The broken shard of brush is in the tote beside a blue brush, and I think this is where you got confused.

Dee Dee,

That's a dramatic difference in appearance between the two portions, ie the garotte handle and the blue brush.

I had been looking at the smaller object center of the circle .....



yep,
okay, so the blue brush has a the same form, the bristle end, as the
large yellow brush in the upper right hand corner, and the bristle end of the blue brush was not damaged by chemicals.

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Ramsey home: Basement photos

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote3.jpg

I think there may be some confusion here on the paintbrush. In the picture posted of the [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=180019&postcount=5"]closeup of the paint tote[/ame], the white circle is there to show where the broken piece was located (the brush end). The blue brush is just another brush in the tray. The broken end is between the blue brush and a small tube of (probably) paint.

(And yes, DD, there was a whittler in the house. I think the housekeeper had at one time said something about his leaving pieces of his whittlings laying on the floor around the house. Gee, would that make Patsy "Whittler's Mother"?)
:dance:
.

 

[cynic]

Cynic, if this is true, then I have to file this under "Spin". I cannot believe one word from this woman's mouth as we all know her main objective was to paint the Ramseys as pure and innocent. This is sad because if it is true about the urine stain being in the basement, there has to be a reason for Jameson stating it. Do you have any idea where I can find it at her site? As bad as I hate to, I will go there to see what I can find out about it.

I can tell you that it is not mentioned in Perfect Murder Perfect Town, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, or Death of Innocence.
It is not in the Bonita Papers or the LHP account.
It is not in any publically available deposition.
It is not in any LE interview with JR or PR.
It is not on the ACR site.

Jameson is credited as the source:
Evidence About Where JBR Was Killed
•The Basement. The conventional wisdom is that JBR was killed somewhere in the basement. Internet poster Jameson has recently summarized the conventional wisdom:
1.Wine Cellar Room Ruled Out. The mold and dirt on the floor of the wine cellar room shows too few footprints for there to have been a scuffle in there.
2.Hallway Outside Wine Cellar Room. There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Jameson asserts "most investigators" believe this is the area in which she was killed.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting-the-Evidence

We know her body was found in the windowless room. The mold and dirt on the floor make it clear there was no scuffle in there, a few very clear footprints, not a lot.
A few feet away, in the hallway, we have the source of the paintbrush handle that was used in the garotte. The small bits of paintbrush found there seem to indicate that is where the brush was broken - and that it possible the garrote was made there. Couple that with the urine that was found there - and most investigators believe THAT is where JonBenet was killed. - jameson
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID77/13.html

There was a urine stain in the hall outside the windowless room. That is where the garotte was made, that is where she was choked and as she struggled, she wet herself. I have spent a lot of time in that area - and there is nothing there that anyone could "suspend" a child from. It is a suspended ceiling. - jameson
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID72/399.html

Jams was the first person I remember mentioning the urine stain outside the cellar door. I always kept a grain of salt handy for that, but then I believe I heard Smit or Schiller or someone in a documentary say the same thing. If it's not true, I have no way of disproving it. With other evidence we have many sources for in that area, it seems logical, so I have had no reason to question it. Are we all being misled? We've had misinformation we've believed for years finally corrected, so it's possible.
But we do have solid sources about the stains on the front of JB's pants, so she was on her stomach when she died. What I postulated about the sequence of events by the paint tray is supported by the evidence, I believe. So again, the "stain" in the basement outside the cellar, by the paint tray, appears to be correctly reported as urine from JonBenet.
I guess you'll have to make up your mind what you believe. -KoldKase
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7760&pp=12&page=23

The only other “source” I can find is “Red Herring,” but it is unclear as to who his/her source is.
In the layout of the basement notice the reference to “stains.”
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html
It may well be true and may have originated from a news account that is no longer available, if anyone happens to remember, please share.

 

[cynic]

I don't think the knots themselves would contain as much DNA as the area the killer handled tying the knot, a little further away from the knot.The place he held to tighten the knots. That area would have received the most pressure and friction as he tightened the knot. I don't think tying that particular knot requires a person to handle all the wraps. Or hold them in place till secured. The paintbrush did that. If he wore gloves to do this ????? They said they scraped the long johns so I'm assuming they could scrape both sides of the cord looking.

The knot formed on the paintbrush would require quite a bit of handling of the knot portion.
Notice the contact required to make a somewhat similar knot in the following video.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVlxELUreU&feature=related[/ame]

In terms of DNA collection, it would be a judgment call by the tech. If it was felt that razor scraping would miss too many of the “nooks and crannies” of the cord, double swabbing (wet, followed by dry) might be employed. Another possibility would be essentially “washing” the area as referred to in the following case:
An old woman was found dead in her apartment in the south of Italy. Her arms were tied behind the back with a nylon rope. Due to the absence of any biological or fingerprints evidence, investigations were immediately focused on the rope. Few centimetres of the knot and of the portions not in direct contact with the victim were separately collected. Samples were firstly washed with sterile bidistilled water. The obtained solutions were then submitted to several concentration/filtration steps by means of Centricon™ filters.
Forensic Science International: Genetics Supplement Series
Volume 1, Issue 1, August 2008, Page 446

 

[MurriFlower]

I think there may be some confusion here on the paintbrush. In the picture posted of the closeup of the paint tote, the white circle is there to show where the broken piece was located (the brush end). The blue brush is just another brush in the tray. The broken end is between the blue brush and a small tube of (probably) paint.

Here tis.

So, just thinking along the lines of taking a paint brush and breaking it to make a stick to use to tug on a strangulation cord -- how would you do it? The stick seems to be about 1cm thick at both broken ends. You would probably put it under your foot and pull up to break it and that would leave splinters on the carpet (notice how jagged the end with the brush is?). Why would you then pick up the brush end and put it back in the tote, rather than just leave it on the floor? And what happened to the other end of the stick?

I'd estimate that there is around 3-4" of brush, ferrule and broken stick still in the tote. The stick with the cord seems to be around 13cm (5") according to the ruler beside it. Even if the stick is broken at an angle so is overlapping, it still leaves around 6cm (2.5") of the end missing.

None of the other brushes in the tote look as old, dull and battered as the piece of stick with the cord around it. All the wooden brushes are seemingly new with the 'shine' of the varnish still on them. None seem to have been whittled.

The blue brush is shorter and thicker, as is the yellow brush and white brush, any of which would have made a stronger handle without needing to be broken.

Just another puzzling clue in this mystery.

 

[Toltec]

In the book PMPT, Lawrence Schilling reports that Jameson was speaking to Lou Smit about the case...Lou was giving her information pertaining to the case until he was told to stop talking to hir.

 

[MurriFlower]

I can tell you that it is not mentioned in Perfect Murder Perfect Town, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, or Death of Innocence.
It is not in the Bonita Papers or the LHP account.
It is not in any publically available deposition.
It is not in any LE interview with JR or PR.
It is not on the ACR site.

Jameson is credited as the source:
Evidence About Where JBR Was Killed
•The Basement. The conventional wisdom is that JBR was killed somewhere in the basement. Internet poster Jameson has recently summarized the conventional wisdom:
1.Wine Cellar Room Ruled Out. The mold and dirt on the floor of the wine cellar room shows too few footprints for there to have been a scuffle in there.
2.Hallway Outside Wine Cellar Room. There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Jameson asserts "most investigators" believe this is the area in which she was killed.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting-the-Evidence

We know her body was found in the windowless room. The mold and dirt on the floor make it clear there was no scuffle in there, a few very clear footprints, not a lot.
A few feet away, in the hallway, we have the source of the paintbrush handle that was used in the garotte. The small bits of paintbrush found there seem to indicate that is where the brush was broken - and that it possible the garrote was made there. Couple that with the urine that was found there - and most investigators believe THAT is where JonBenet was killed. - jameson
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID77/13.html

There was a urine stain in the hall outside the windowless room. That is where the garotte was made, that is where she was choked and as she struggled, she wet herself. I have spent a lot of time in that area - and there is nothing there that anyone could "suspend" a child from. It is a suspended ceiling. - jameson
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID72/399.html

Jams was the first person I remember mentioning the urine stain outside the cellar door. I always kept a grain of salt handy for that, but then I believe I heard Smit or Schiller or someone in a documentary say the same thing. If it's not true, I have no way of disproving it. With other evidence we have many sources for in that area, it seems logical, so I have had no reason to question it. Are we all being misled? We've had misinformation we've believed for years finally corrected, so it's possible.
But we do have solid sources about the stains on the front of JB's pants, so she was on her stomach when she died. What I postulated about the sequence of events by the paint tray is supported by the evidence, I believe. So again, the "stain" in the basement outside the cellar, by the paint tray, appears to be correctly reported as urine from JonBenet.
I guess you'll have to make up your mind what you believe. -KoldKase
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7760&pp=12&page=23

The only other “source” I can find is “Red Herring,” but it is unclear as to who his/her source is.
In the layout of the basement notice the reference to “stains.”
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html
It may well be true and may have originated from a news account that is no longer available, if anyone happens to remember, please share.

Hi cynic

I think you are saying here that there is no reliable source of the urine stain in the hallway outside the WC?

There is definitely a stain of some kind there, but it could have been anything, unless we have some corroborating evidence of it being urine, JBR's urine and JBR's urine that wasn't there prior to that night, I think we can assume that it is just 'someone's theory', that seems to have been widely accepted as fact.

If you want to see a urine stain, that most likely is JBR's and more than likely was left that night, then take a close look at the bottom sheet on her bed.

Notice the line of darker/lighter area around the pillow end? Notice the pillow is not on the head but placed near the foot of the bed? Seems unlikely that a child would throw her pillow to the end of the bed and then sleep in such a position that, when she wet the bed, it would be where the pillow was. Much more likely that she was across the bed at the time. That's where she most probably was when she was attacked IMO.