Dina Shacknai wants Max's death reopened; gives ICU pic to media

[jjenny]

Max was declared brain dead, and subsequently his organs were donated. I presume both parents would have to agree to that. So it would appear this was a planned disconnection of life support.

 

[K_Z]

I'd like to point out that impulsivity isn't limited to suicide. Murderers are also known to be impulsive-- a great deal of them in under 5 minutes. Intent can be formed in the blink of an eye. And sometimes something that may not have started out to be a murder, ends up being murder due to impulsivity. And sometimes it's planned as a murder from the beginning of the confrontation or incident,

If Rebecca had committed suicide indoors, it may have taken longer to find her.
If Rebecca was murdered indoors, it may have taken a longer time to find her.

The debate cannot be won.

There is no way to prove, imo, what happened in either death at this point. I doubt that either case will be reopened. What is of particular importance to Dina at this point is establishing some aspect of negligence, imo, so that the next phase of her quest for justice can occur. And I believe that part of her quest for justice will include a civil lawsuit against Jonah in the next few months to a year or so.

Dr. Meliek is a prominent forensic pathologist, but no pathologist can say from the injury pattern of a victim who may or may not have been present when those injuries occurred. That is for law inforcement investigators to determine. ME's conclude homicide, suicide, accident, or undetermined-- but forensic pathologists don't typically name specific suspects in autopsy reports. In a criminal trial, those statements would be torn to bits-- but she is free to make those statements in a report she was paid to produce. That is why her comments are being criticized. She may reach different medical conclusions than the original ME, and that is fair. But when she starts naming suspects, she has stepped over a professional line.

 

[MyBelle]

Unfortunately, none of the media seems to have even read the new Summary Report Dina and her lawyer put out. It's a shame because they could ask them some key questions about such a serious matter instead of writing it up this way.

I watch Dr. Drew last night and basically I thought he did a pretty good job. He sympathized with Dina and though Max's death should be investigated. I thought Dina looked very uncomfortable though when Drew brought up Rebecca's death and said they both should be investigated. Ann Bremer reiterated that both should be investigated. We have never heard anyone from Dina's end say Rebecca's death should be looked into... I hope she thinks again about this after Drew making such a point of none of this makes sense - to have these two deaths in just a couple of days time.

If Dina really wants the truth of it all, especially about Max's death then I think she also would be calling for an investigation of both deaths.

I would be extremely surprised if Dina were telling the truth on Dr. Drew when she claimed she did not know how serious Max's condition was until the day after Rebecca died or even Friday. I don't know where to find it but her version of CPS being involved does not seem to jive and neither do a number of other things like Nina calling Rebecca late at night and Rebecca being immediately forbidden from going to the hospital.

LE has already said the death of RZ is closed. Whether it will be re-opened isn't up to Dina or Dr. Drew. Her focus is on her son's death and I don't blame her for any part of it.

Whether Dina is telling the truth about when she became aware of the severity of Max's injuries is irrelevant. She may have been in denial to the very end. As the child's mother, she had every right to forbid someone from the bedside of her beloved son and if she thought that person was harmful to her son, she had every right to report it to CPS.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

LE has already said the death of RZ is closed. Whether it will be re-opened isn't up to Dina or Dr. Drew. Her focus is on her son's death and I don't blame her for any part of it.

Whether Dina is telling the truth about when she became aware of the severity of Max's injuries is irrelevant. She may have been in denial to the very end. As the child's mother, she had every right to forbid someone from the bedside of her beloved son and if she thought that person was harmful to her son, she had every right to report it to CPS.

JMO

The death of Max is closed as well.

 

[MyBelle]

I hope it also results in the Zahaus suing for wrongful death. OJ wasn't convicted by a criminal jury but the civil jury, which got to see a lot more evidence, found him responsible for the two deaths. Ironically, DS' PR team making this front-page news, trying to contaminate a jury pool before the investigation is even reopened, may backfire. Here they are, all over the web and the media, smearing a woman who was the victim and I hope that means all these media appearances will start to uncover a lot more questions that the Coronado police didn't ask. Of the Shacknais, and IIRC, there were at least four of them in town at the time, plus additional people in the guesthouse.

On what basis could RZ's family win a lawsuit for wrongful death when the case has been ruled a suicide? OJ's case never involved suicide.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Max was declared brain dead, and subsequently his organs were donated. I presume both parents would have to agree to that. So it would appear this was a planned disconnection of life support.

Yes, from what I remember the doctors had just told them that Max was not going to make it the night/morning Rebecca committed suicide. Then they had to find matching donors for Max's organs after they were given the news he wasnt going to make it.

IMO

 

[time]

I hope it also results in the Zahaus suing for wrongful death. OJ wasn't convicted by a criminal jury but the civil jury, which got to see a lot more evidence, found him responsible for the two deaths. Ironically, DS' PR team making this front-page news, trying to contaminate a jury pool before the investigation is even reopened, may backfire. Here they are, all over the web and the media, smearing a woman who was the victim and I hope that means all these media appearances will start to uncover a lot more questions that the Coronado police didn't ask. Of the Shacknais, and IIRC, there were at least four of them in town at the time, plus additional people in the guesthouse.

I think Dina is quickly realizing that presenting all this in the media means the media will give some or equal time to Rebecca's death. Oddly, I don't think that's what she thought was going to happen. I think if you have a strong case and nothing else has worked then going to the media is appropriate. However, that is not the case here. It appears as if the SDSD has already said they will look over the findings.

Ann Bremer has said she thinks they will get some results from the CA Attorney General - their request was to look into both cases. Dina sits on the shows and barely seems to acknowledge Rebecca's death - that is going to seem odd to people when the Zahau's own attorney has gone all the way to the AG to request they both be looked at while Dina is making a media splash with lawsuits, a new nonprofit, and just going to the SDSD now with a expert report when we never heard previously that her team requested access to the mansion for investigation or asked for a second autopsy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

LE has already said the death of RZ is closed. Whether it will be re-opened isn't up to Dina or Dr. Drew. Her focus is on her son's death and I don't blame her for any part of it.

Whether Dina is telling the truth about when she became aware of the severity of Max's injuries is irrelevant. She may have been in denial to the very end. As the child's mother, she had every right to forbid someone from the bedside of her beloved son and if she thought that person was harmful to her son, she had every right to report it to CPS.

JMO

I thought she said on Dr. Drew last night that the main doctor in the unit contacted CPS because he didnt believe it was an accident?

If Max's case is reopened this doctor's early opinion will be very relevant.

IMO

 

[MyBelle]

I'd like to point out that impulsivity isn't limited to suicide. Murderers are also known to be impulsive-- a great deal of them in under 5 minutes. Intent can be formed in the blink of an eye. And sometimes something that may not have started out to be a murder, ends up being murder due to impulsivity. And sometimes it's planned as a murder from the beginning of the confrontation or incident,

If Rebecca had committed suicide indoors, it may have taken longer to find her.
If Rebecca was murdered indoors, it may have taken a longer time to find her.

The debate cannot be won.

There is no way to prove, imo, what happened in either death at this point. I doubt that either case will be reopened. What is of particular importance to Dina at this point is establishing some aspect of negligence, imo, so that the next phase of her quest for justice can occur. And I believe that part of her quest for justice will include a civil lawsuit against Jonah in the next few months to a year or so.

Dr. Meliek is a prominent forensic pathologist, but no pathologist can say from the injury pattern of a victim who may or may not have been present when those injuries occurred. That is for law inforcement investigators to determine. ME's conclude homicide, suicide, accident, or undetermined-- but forensic pathologists don't typically name specific suspects in autopsy reports. In a criminal trial, those statements would be torn to bits-- but she is free to make those statements in a report she was paid to produce. That is why her comments are being criticized. She may reach different medical conclusions than the original ME, and that is fair. But when she starts naming suspects, she has stepped over a professional line.

It would not surprise me if the ME changes Max's death to the "undetermined" category. That will pave the way for lawsuits. I expect a wrongful death lawsuit to be filed against JS and RZ's estate and that JS will settle out of court.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I thought she said on Dr. Drew last night that the main doctor in the unit contacted CPS because he didnt believe it was an accident?

If Max's case is reopened this doctor's early opinion will be very relevant.

IMO

Thanks for reminding me that Max's doctor DID call in CPS prior to RZ's suicide. I had forgotten about that HUGE detail.

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think Dina is quickly realizing that presenting all this in the media means the media will give some or equal time to Rebecca's death. Oddly, I don't think that's what she thought was going to happen. I think if you have a strong case and nothing else has worked then going to the media is appropriate. However, that is not the case here. It appears as if the SDSD has already said they will look over the findings.

Ann Bremer has said she thinks they will get some results from the CA Attorney General - their request was to look into both cases. Dina sits on the shows and barely seems to acknowledge Rebecca's death - that is going to seem odd to people when the Zahau's own attorney has gone all the way to the AG to request they both be looked at while Dina is making a media splash with lawsuits, a new nonprofit, and just going to the SDSD now with a expert report when we never heard previously that her team requested access to the mansion for investigation or asked for a second autopsy.

I cant speak for anyone else but when I saw Dina I was actually surprised that she held back and didnt mention Rebecca..not even disparingly. It was obvious to me she didnt want to discuss Rebecca because she believes Rebecca is the one that assaulted her child.

I find the way Dina did it much better. No telling how long she was in such deep state of grief and unable mentally to obtain experts to look at her son's death. At least before she went to LE she had had all these things done beforehand and before she spoke out in the media.

IMO

 

[time]

<snipped and agree with what you said>

Dr. Meliek is a prominent forensic pathologist, but no pathologist can say from the injury pattern of a victim who may or may not have been present when those injuries occurred. That is for law inforcement investigators to determine. ME's conclude homicide, suicide, accident, or undetermined-- but forensic pathologists don't typically name specific suspects in autopsy reports. In a criminal trial, those statements would be torn to bits-- but she is free to make those statements in a report she was paid to produce. That is why her comments are being criticized. She may reach different medical conclusions than the original ME, and that is fair. But when she starts naming suspects, she has stepped over a professional line.

BBM - exactly. If Dr. Meliek did claim in her report she concluded Rebecca was a murderer or even directly involved in an assault/Max's death then she is being unethical and going beyond her professional expertise as a pathologist. I might add that it is shoddy investigation and unethical to present that as the truth to the public also.

 

[MyBelle]

I think Dina is quickly realizing that presenting all this in the media means the media will give some or equal time to Rebecca's death. Oddly, I don't think that's what she thought was going to happen. I think if you have a strong case and nothing else has worked then going to the media is appropriate. However, that is not the case here. It appears as if the SDSD has already said they will look over the findings.

Ann Bremer has said she thinks they will get some results from the CA Attorney General - their request was to look into both cases. Dina sits on the shows and barely seems to acknowledge Rebecca's death - that is going to seem odd to people when the Zahau's own attorney has gone all the way to the AG to request they both be looked at while Dina is making a media splash with lawsuits, a new nonprofit, and just going to the SDSD now with a expert report when we never heard previously that her team requested access to the mansion for investigation or asked for a second autopsy.

So far, the only attention the media seems to be giving to RZ's death is to point out that LE has reiterated that it is a closed case of suicide. Dina's focus is totally on Max, as well it should be.

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM - exactly. If Dr. Meliek did claim in her report she concluded Rebecca was a murderer or even directly involved in an assault/Max's death then she is being unethical and going beyond her professional expertise as a pathologist.

She did not name anyone. Just like other pathologists dont. That is left up to LE not the pathologist.

All she said was Max's death was a homicide.

She has a right to make that assessment based on the evidence she looked at.

IMO

 

[freespeech]

What I find unconscionable is lame bashing of the boy's mother. She's a victim. Your contention that her actions are somehow to blame for her son's death greatly lacks any basis to support it.

I don't know of any divorce where an ex-spouse can order the other parent to hire a nanny or in any way intrude upon his time with his child just because she doesn't like his new girlfriend. The public has not been given any basis whatsoever to conclude that RZ was in any way a violent person and her own statements to LE indicated she was not alone in the house at the time of Max's death.

JMO

Thank you for making my point.

 

[jjenny]

Maybe somebody can explain this to me. The whole basis for the claim that he couldn't get over this railing appears to be because his center of gravity was below the railing. Well, if you couldn't get over something higher than your center of gravity, what in the world was I doing watching high jumps at the Olympics?
Are they taking into account the momentum this child could have if he was running and tripped over something, for instance?

 

[MyBelle]

BBM - exactly. If Dr. Meliek did claim in her report she concluded Rebecca was a murderer or even directly involved in an assault/Max's death then she is being unethical and going beyond her professional expertise as a pathologist.

I don't agree. I believe the Dr. based her opinion on police reports/interviews. If she concluded the child's injuries immediately preceeded his "fall" then it is a logical conclusion that one of the people present was responsible. Max's own doctor called in CPS prior to Max's death so there must be some evidence of it.

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Maybe somebody can explain this to me. The whole basis for the claim that he couldn't get over this railing is because his center of gravity was below the railing. Well, if you couldn't get over something higher than your center of gravity, what in the world was I doing watching high jumps at the Olympics?
Are they taking into account the momentum this child could have if he was running and tripped over something, for instance?

The center of gravity would still be the same in comparison to the railing and his height. That is why you see such effort made by the atheletes to get over the hurdles.

And if he was running and stumbled then his body would be even lower than if he was standing upright.

And if he was riding the scooter the scooter would crash against the railing stopping it and not land on the floor beside him, imo.

 

[time]

I believe maybe l.b. nora brought this up a few pages back. An WS insider said long ago that Dina thought Max died from being purposefully suffocated and/or strangled. Now how does that sync with Dina now claiming she did not know Max's condition was any more serious than he might have to have some therapy until Thurs or Friday after he died. I do not think she was just in denial either because supposedly the call to Rebecca from Jonah shortly after midnight on Tuesday was to tell her how serious Max's condition was. Dina was also gone from the hospital for 12 hours on Tuesday, I believe. Would you leave your son's bedside that long if you thought he would wake up at any minute or really didn't know how serious his condition was? Just exactly who and when did the Dr. tell that he thought Max had been suffocated?

Dina needs to be forthcoming with answers to these questions and any other information about all of this needs to be made public.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you for making my point.

It's a valid point. While the public has not been given any evidence that RZ or any one else was violent toward Max, the ICU doctor caring for the child did call CPS. There must be a sound medical indication for his suspicions.

JMO