Discussion: Is TH responsible for Kyron's disappearance? #2(POLL ADDED)

[Aedrys]

Originally Posted by angelmom

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"But how could she even begin to guess that no one would see her? It's a pretty crappy plan to just HOPE no one sees you.

And then what does she say? She can't just suddenly remember that the appointment is for the next week and march him back into the school. If she says, "Oh we're on our way to an appt." then what does she tell Kyron? There is no appointment! What if he told Kaine? "Hey, Mom took me from school today and told Mrs. Jones I had a doctor appointment but we really just went to the grocery store and the gym!"

There is also a risk that the teacher will vividly remember and be SURE that Terri said she was taking him to the doctor. Obviously that is not the case, or they wouldn't have spent so much time searching in and around the school for a child who wandered away.

There is a risk Kyron would have told someone, anyone, that he had an appointment and would/would not be back later for the talent show. Obviously there has been no witness who could say that for the same reasons.

There is a risk that the teacher could have been unsure and called Terri on her cell (all three of my kids' schools have mine, my DH's, and all 4 grandparents' numbers). Just to double check that she had him. How could Terri even begin to guess that the teacher wouldn't check? I know it was a crazy day but, having taught this age, I would be even more cautious b/c it was abnormal. I would be counting (like the parent volunteer did) regularly and wondering...hmmm...did Terri take him or is he in the gym and hasn't even noticed we came back to the room? ESPECIALLY with a kid who has trouble with directions and might get distracted.

The fact is that somehow Kyron left the school without being seen, but I don't know how anyone could have planned that. That's what makes me lean toward a SO who just happened to spot Kyron on his own for a minute.

This is what keeps me on the fence...I just can't picture any way that it makes sense."

___________

This post reminded me of the case of Amy Milaljevic in Bay Village, Ohio. Amy was contacted well before her abduction by a man who asked her to meet him to choose a gift for her Mother. He claimed to be a co-worker of her Mom and said her Mother was to be promoted. Think of the chance he took that for days Amy would keep his secret...there was no promotion. AS it was, she did confide in another child. But she kept their appointment to "shop."

Amy met him after school across the street from the Bay Village Police Dept....no attempt to choose an out-of-the-way place. Imagine the risk-taker this guy must have been!

Her body was found quite a while later. Many years later it came out he had contacted other little girls, some with unlisted phones. The case was never solved.

Amy was the same age as my daughter and the story and the boldness of the crime terrified me. I've never forgotten her.

Amy Mihaljevic's killer was a bold risk-taker. Called ahead. Picked her up across from the police department. Maybe that added to his sense of empowerment.

I guess that's why I tend to believe that a mind that can conceive of killing a child is so strangely and frighteningly programmed that trying to imagine how normal people might react is futile.

If Terri did this to the child she raised IMO she must have had the confidence and boldness to think she could risk and get away with it. She would have a certain risk-taking mentality. Then I remember the the foolish sex-ting at a time when media and police scrutiny of the whole family was intense. That was "risky" too..as was the cell phone caper.

I can't rule Terri out because the plan was too risky. Amy's killer had a much riskier plan. And he's never been caught.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Mihaljevic

ITA. Yes, it was a risky plan - to any of us here on WS. But to the person that did it, maybe it wasn't so risky. We're law abiding citizens who would never even think about doing something like this. However, some people just don't fear things. They may also believe that they can control a situation to a point that any risk is minimal. Seeing as how her steadfast and loyal friends were willing to help her evade the police conversation wise by getting phones under false aliases, this makes me think TH thought she had a lot of control over this situation, and that if anything went wrong, she could find a way to fix it, or if her good friend Dede was on damage control, she thought she knew someone that could fix it for her, either way giving her the security that she could get away with doing this.

The fastest way to get into trouble with the law is to think you are above and beyond it. Just look at the Casey Anthony case. She's really close to a DP, but her parents still seem to think that they can lie in court and get her off of the hook (thank God for the SA in tha case, who was so totally prepared at the last hearing that Cindy A's attempt to lie was totally unraveled. She certainly won't get away with it at trial time). I won't be surprised to see them charged with obstruction for all the things they've done to hinder the investigation and get in the way of justice for Caylee. If TH had the same type of thinking, then I can see how she would look at her plan and think it was low risk. She obviously has little respect for LE, as does her friends. That's a bad attitude to have, as they can all see now. As for me, I'd never DREAM of even attempting something like that. It's far too risky for me, and I have far too much faith in being caught by LE if I attempted anything to break the law.

But to whoever did it (and my money is on TH), apparently it wasn't risky enough to deter them from doing it. And Kyron still hasn't been found yet, so the plan is still working in a sense. I'm guessing TH didn't realize how fast LE would be on to her, and what scrutiny she'd be under. I know that wasn't part of her plan. And if this was another perp, then wow did they have an ace in the hole with TH as a scapegoat. Luckiest perp on the planet, I'd say.

 

[Donjeta]

IMHO, there is not a shred of physical evidence that ties Terri to Kyron's disappearance. Admittedly, this is my opinion, but it is an educated opinion. We know there is no evidence of a murder. LE has stated there is no evidence Kyron is not alive, and DY's and KH's continued assertions that Kyron is alive and stashed away, while simultaneously claiming regular briefings by LE, conveys to me that LE has no evidence a murder has taken place.

IMO a lot of this evidence hangs upon finding Kyron or the crime scene. If LE doesn't have a crime scene the perp might have left behind any amount of physical evidence such as soil samples, stains, rolls of duct tape, receipts for rat poison or rope and barrels used in the disposal of the body, cell pings and so on for LE to find. IMO in such a hypothetical situation the perp wasn't so cunning that they didn't leave a shred of evidence; LE may have found plenty of evidence but it's just not very useful to the prosecution until the crime scene is found and they can argue that Sample A, Document B and Item C tie the perp to the crime scene or the mode of disposal.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

You know if by viewing this family initially on t.v. when Terri was still in that picture, i would say that looking at her, her look was what i would call "apologetic" with her body language, and needing some kind of "reassurance", not that i am an expert in that.

 

[Jack]

-snipped

Finally, no matter what my attorney advised, anyone telling me to give up contact with my child in order to possibly avoid some kind of criminal charge, would get shown the door. And that's saying it nicely. Doing what one's attorney advises sure as heck is indicative of one's guilt when that advice goes against every instinct a person has as a parent. That baby needs her mother (if she is a safe person). She has been ripped from her primary caregiver. TH allowed that. IMO, no innocent mother would.

Gitana, I understand where you're coming from, however, there are a lot of people who would take that chance. TH probably knows KH is a good father and that her daughter is in good hands, and so with that in mind she can feel comfortable doing what has to be done right now. If I were in her shoes I would do what my attorney advises even if it hurt me to the core. If she can't, or doesn't, take care of this very serious situation first there is no point in fighting for custody anyhow. Who knows, perhaps Houze and/or divorce attorney has already told her not to expect much in the way of ever getting full custody and that she could either choose to take a 50/50 chance at that or to resign herself to having partial custody, just visitation, or not seeing her daughter at all unless someone is willing to bring her visiting hours at the prison she'll be in if she doesn't do what her attorney advises.

 

[gitana1]

Gitana, I understand where you're coming from, however, there are a lot of people who would take that chance. TH probably knows KH is a good father and that her daughter is in good hands, and so with that in mind she can feel comfortable doing what has to be done right now. If I were in her shoes I would do what my attorney advises even if it hurt me to the core. If she can't, or doesn't, take care of this very serious situation first there is no point in fighting for custody anyhow. Who knows, perhaps Houze and/or divorce attorney has already told her not to expect much in the way of ever getting full custody and that she could either choose to take a 50/50 chance at that or to resign herself to having partial custody, just visitation, or not seeing her daughter at all unless someone is willing to bring her visiting hours at the prison she'll be in if she doesn't do what her attorney advises.

I respectfully disagree. In family law, people make crummy allegations all the time. But those allegations have to be substantiated. I see no reason why TH would not have had a great shot at custody unless she is guilty of something. That is another theory (that she would have no chance at custody) I keep seeing batted around but it has no basis in the law, IMO. TH is not a named suspect. If she is not guilty of the things Kaine alleged and if he cannot prove his allegations, there would be no reason to deny her custody. I am saying that as a family law attorney.
Courts take custody and visitation rights very, very seriously. It takes a lot to deny someone custody and visitation rights. Examples? Abuse, DV, drug and alcohol issues, extreme mental problems, dangerous criminal behavior. Even in such cases, people can usually get some form of supervised visitation.
Rumor and innuendo are not enough to deny custody and visitation. The possibility of being investigated for a crime is simply not enough.
Finally, you say you would do what your attorney advises even if it hurt you. What if it hurt your child? What TH is doing is hurting her baby. Babies need their mamas (unless mama is unsafe).
But, if TH is guilty of something, then by all means, she should follow her attorney's advice because it is great advice. And if she is guilty of something, that baby could be in real danger of being near TH, and the present custody orders are likely in the best interest of baby K.

 

[Jack]

I respectfully disagree. In family law, people make crummy allegations all the time. But those allegations have to be substantiated. I see no reason why TH would not have had a great shot at custody unless she is guilty of something. That is another theory (that she would have no chance at custody) I keep seeing batted around but it has no basis in the law, IMO. TH is not a named suspect. If she is not guilty of the things Kaine alleged and if he cannot prove his allegations, there would be no reason to deny her custody. I am saying that as a family law attorney.
Courts take custody and visitation rights very, very seriously. It takes a lot to deny someone custody and visitation rights. Examples? Abuse, DV, drug and alcohol issues, extreme mental problems, dangerous criminal behavior. Even in such cases, people can usually get some form of supervised visitation.
Rumor and innuendo are not enough to deny custody and visitation. The possibility of being investigated for a crime is simply not enough.
Finally, you say you would do what your attorney advises even if it hurt you. What if it hurt your child? What TH is doing is hurting her baby. Babies need their mamas (unless mama is unsafe).
But, if TH is guilty of something, then by all means, she should follow her attorney's advice because it is great advice. And if she is guilty of something, that baby could be in real danger of being near TH, and the present custody orders are likely in the best interest of baby K.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I've seen plenty of cases where rumor and innnuendo have had negative influence on a person's ability to be seen as a fit parent, especially if you can't defend yourself against it, which no doubt TH is being advised not to do. Ideally a case shouldn't be influenced but the reality is they are.

I'm also of the mind that fathers can be fabulous caregivers for their children if they choose to be and that children are resilient. Baby K wont suffer at all if she is raised by her father rather than her mother. I know several men who are raising their children very well and the kids are well adjusted and happy. In KH's case though I'd be worried that he'd find another woman to move in and raise baby K like he did with Kyron.

 

[gitana1]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I've seen plenty of cases where rumor and innnuendo have had negative influence on a person's ability to be seen as a fit parent, especially if you can't defend yourself against it, which no doubt TH is being advised not to do. Ideally a case shouldn't be influenced but the reality is they are.

I'm also of the mind that fathers can be fabulous caregivers for their children if they choose to be and that children are resilient. Baby K wont suffer at all if she is raised by her father rather than her mother. I know several men who are raising their children very well and the kids are well adjusted and happy. In KH's case though I'd be worried that he'd find another woman to move in and raise baby K like he did with Kyron.

Here's the problem. Your argument was that TH might have foregone custody and visitation because she was told she would not have a chance at custody. But that's different from the chance that rumor and innuendo may have a negative influence on whether a person is seen as a fit parent. One sounds like a given. The other is a possibility. You don't give up your kid for a possibility. Not if you love that child. (Unless your guilty, IMO).
Also, while rumor and innuendo may have an influence, a decision based on such would be an abuse of the discretion of the court and subject to appeal. Judges do not like to risk being appealed.
Also, I have been practicing almost exclusively family law since 2002 and have yet to see a custody case decided on rumor and innuendo. Besides, TH is well known. A judge would be specially careful of flouting the law with all eyes on him.
No, something stinks here.
Finally, I agree that dads can be just as great as moms with young children. But that is not really the argument (although the bias in favor of moms still exists and would influence TH's custody case). The argument is that a child was being raised by one parent, primarily and now has absolutely no contact with that parent. I don't care how great a dad Kaine is. That kid is traumatized by being ripped from her primary parent (unless TH was not a good one). And TH knows it. Yet, she chose to allow this to happen.
I think your argument actually makes a lot of sense if TH is guilty. There is no other reason I can think of that TH could not defend herself right this moment. The fact that LE may be building a case against her should not matter if she is innocent, IMO.
In sum, yes, I guess we'll have to disagree, but I appreciate the debate. It's great exercise for my brain!! (And my brain needs it!)