do you think maddie is alive or dead

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yeah right, they know DNA results before they come back!

It has nothing to do with DNA. It has to do with them having way more information than us. They are closer and kept in the loop. We get the information WELL after they do.

I would like to see the instances where the McCann's just brushed it off and said.. Ain't her,.. With no proof.

 

[Donjeta]

What Gerry knows I can't say but there was talk about an anniversary concert in an article published 03 June 2007.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id302.html

 

[blefuscu]

It has nothing to do with DNA. It has to do with them having way more information than us. They are closer and kept in the loop. We get the information WELL after they do.

I would like to see the instances where the McCann's just brushed it off and said.. Ain't her,.. With no proof.

That makes absolutely no sense! If they are so sure the suspected children aren't Madeleine then why is money wasted on DNA testing? It happens every time a child is suspected of being madeleine!

 

[Jmoose]

Because most likely they know more than we do. They have had access to the information first and know where it comes from and when and other information.

And who says they are saying that it is dismissed. Sounds like more spin to me.

i agree with this-they are getting information or at least pictures before we do, and can dismiss these sightings

 

[blefuscu]

i agree with this-they are getting information or at least pictures before we do, and can dismiss these sightings

There are instances where DNA is being taken, why would that be done and processed if they didn't think it was Madeleine? And yet the parents have dismissed the child as being Madeleine before DNA has been analysed.

 

[Jmoose]

Has it occurred to anyone here that all of the news about Maddie possibly still being alive and held by pedophiles, could be her death sentence, assuming she is still alive? Why would people who are keeping her from her family allow her to stay alive if they know everyone is looking for her, as well as her abductors?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Has it occurred to anyone here that all of the news about Maddie possibly still being alive and held by pedophiles, could be her death sentence, assuming she is still alive? Why would people who are keeping her from her family allow her to stay alive if they know everyone is looking for her, as well as her abductors?

The McCanns were instructed NOT to release the detail about her eye as if she was still alive, it could trigger her murder.

They went ahead and did it anyway.

They were instructed (by SY) not to attend this libel hearing either, but they went ahead and did that too.

They know better, it seems. On all things.

 

[Inana]

What Gerry knows I can't say but there was talk about an anniversary concert in an article published 03 June 2007.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id302.html

And then, the McCann's sued the Daily Express for printing lies, a suit which they won, btw, resulting in a public apology. IIRC.

 

[SapphireSteel]

And then, the McCann's sued the Daily Express for printing lies, a suit which they won, btw, resulting in a public apology. IIRC.

No one knows what happened that night, so it logically follows that no one can say what were "lies" and what were not "lies".

Logic, there it is again!

:seeya:

Also, the suit the McCanns filed and won were against the "rag" tabloids who made up all sorts of stuff regarding swinging etc, anything for a headline. Amaral's book is an entirely different situation as it is not full of "lies" - even the courts have acknowledged that.

They have NOT won any libel case against any credible, respected msm, indeed did not even file any, and they ended up failing spectacularly when trying to stop Goncalo Amaral's book being sold.

For those who didn't know, the attempt to remove GA's book from the shelves failed entirely and the judges who decided it said this -

The judges at the Appeals Court in Lisbon compared the book with the archiving dispatch from the investigation into Maddie's disappearance: "We do not find any mention to any facts in the book that are not also in that dispatch. Where the author (Gonçalo Amaral) differs from the Prosecutors that wrote the dispatch is in the logical, police-work-oriented and investigative interpretation of said facts. In that sense, we stand before the exercise of the right of opinion, namely in a domain in which the author is an expert, as he worked as a criminal investigator for 26 years".

That bolded bit means that Amaral said nothing in his book that wasn't faithful to the investigation records. Nor did anything he wrote damage the McCanns as they were chasing publicity, publishing their own books and DVDs, insinuating the entire PJ was incompetent and corrupt.

The final decision is impressive reading as the McCanns were thoroughly scorned and shown up as being uncooperative to the investigation in the first place.

They also had to pay costs.

Yup they lost that attempt, and this new attempt to prove libel against Amaral, is very interesting indeed. That's one thing the IDIs and the MDI's can agree on, 100%.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

 

[RANCH]

Ok-so it was before they were trained at Quantico then. Now they've been trained to find human remains, which is why he took them to Quantico in the first place, and why these two dogs, and not some other pig-trained only dogs were used. You are trying to adjust the facts to fit your theory-maybe we can get a professional to weigh in here.

I don't know if Grime trained at Quantico and I don't have a date of when he used pig remains in any training. All I know is that using pig remains as a training aid is not exceptable to most HRD dog trainers.

From what I've read decomposing animal remains produce different scents (VOC) than human remains. That tells me that if a HRD dog alerts to animal remains during training, any alerts from that dog is suspect. In fact ARDA certification for HRD dogs says that if the dog being certified alerts to animal remains it will be considered a fail.

If the canine indicates on the empty container or the dead animal scent source it will result in failure

http://ardainc.org/docs/ARDA_Human_Remains_Evaluation.pdf

 

[Donjeta]

And then, the McCann's sued the Daily Express for printing lies, a suit which they won, btw, resulting in a public apology. IIRC.

About this article in particular?

I thought that was more about them saying that the McCanns might have done it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't know if Grime trained at Quantico and I don't have a date of when he used pig remains in any training. All I know is that using pig remains as a training aid is not exceptable to most HRD dog trainers.

From what I've read decomposing animal remains produce different scents (VOC) than human remains. That tells me that if a HRD dog alerts to animal remains during training, any alerts from that dog is suspect. In fact ARDA certification for HRD dogs says that if the dog being certified alerts to animal remains it will be considered a fail.



http://ardainc.org/docs/ARDA_Human_Remains_Evaluation.pdf

So...like I asked before....did the Mccanns tote around a pig carcass?

 

[RANCH]

So...like I asked before....did the Mccanns tote around a pig carcass?

I'm not understanding your question. These scent detection dogs have amazing abilities to alert to a very small sized material. Molecular sized materiel.

A HRD dog should only alert to the scent of human remains. They shouldn't alert to animal remains. If a HRD dog does alert to animal remains it's not doing it's job correctly. Think about it. What good would a HRD dog be if it alerted to every dead animal scent it came across?

It would be useless.

 

[redheadedgal]

Ok-so it was before they were trained at Quantico then.

actually, the FBI trains their dogs at the Tennessee Body Farm, where real human cadavers are used as training aids. there is a plethora of information available online about the farm.

I don't know if Grime trained at Quantico

as has been stated several times in several forums, grime and his dogs work for the FBI, and therefore the dogs have been trained to FBI standards (see above).

In fact ARDA certification for HRD dogs says that if the dog being certified alerts to animal remains it will be considered a fail.

not sure why you keep bringing up the ARDA... grime's dogs were trained elsewhere (see above).

 

[Venom]

I'm not understanding your question. These scent detection dogs have amazing abilities to alert to a very small sized material. Molecular sized materiel.

A HRD dog should only alert to the scent of human remains. They shouldn't alert to animal remains. If a HRD dog does alert to animal remains it's not doing it's job correctly. Think about it. What good would a HRD dog be if it alerted to every dead animal scent it came across?

It would be useless.

I think what she's trying to get at is how the dogs hit at the scent in the apartment, are you trying to say that the dogs were hitting on the scent of a dead pig and not a dead body? Hope I got that right.

 

[RANCH]

actually, the FBI trains their dogs at the Tennessee Body Farm, where real human cadavers are used as training aids. there is a plethora of information available online about the farm.




as has been stated several times in several forum, grime and his dogs work for the FBI, and therefore the dogs have been trained to FBI standards (see above).


not sure why you keep bringing up the ARDA... grime's dogs were trained elsewhere (see above).

I'd like to see where and when Martin Grime trained his dogs. I would like to see his training records. Please help with some links. I know who he has worked for but his training is not well known.

Well, I should say that his improper training is known. I would like to see more.

 

[goldengirl57]

I'm not understanding your question. These scent detection dogs have amazing abilities to alert to a very small sized material. Molecular sized materiel.

A HRD dog should only alert to the scent of human remains. They shouldn't alert to animal remains. If a HRD dog does alert to animal remains it's not doing it's job correctly. Think about it. What good would a HRD dog be if it alerted to every dead animal scent it came across?

It would be useless. EXACTLY AMEN to that Ranch

When Grimes went to the FBI, there was a case in 2007 of a cop with a missing wife in the states. The cop was arrested for her murder but no body found but witnesses said he was constantly arguing with his wife etc.

Other HRD dogs were bought in and indicated death cadavar...but without a body there was nothing else they could do.

Grimes did a test with Eddie, they put cadavar scent on a pair of trousers and hid them etc, and the dog found them and indicated so the FBI asked him to attend the crime scene.

The dog indicated more or less same place as the other one, the car and boat, and one other place he wasnt happy about. Again no body was found.

This guy was found guilty of killing his wife.

Several years later they found her body about 13 miles away from her home.

Did he kill her who knows he says he didnt. BUT two dogs indicated death and both near to a vehicle which could have clearly carried her away.

ALL THESE dogs are tested and tested and if they fail they are never used again.

My friend has been training dogs since the seventies and she explained to me how hard it is to do this. One fail they are out.

They would never use anything other then human cadavar scent to train them.

That would be like asking a drug dog to be trained sniffing paracetamol rather then cocaine....

or a bomb dog sniffing plastic without the explosive .......

The dogs dont LIE. They just find what they are trained for and move on. They can never say who the body belongs to, only that sometime there was one.

 

[RANCH]

I think what she's trying to get at is how the dogs hit at the scent in the apartment, are you trying to say that the dogs were hitting on the scent of a dead pig and not a dead body? Hope I got that right.

I'm not saying that the dogs alerted to the scent of a dead pig. What I'm saying is that when a HRD dog is trained to only alert to the scent of human decomposition and if they alert to the scent of a decomposing pig it's a good indication that either the dog wasn't trained well or the handler is "cueing" the dog to alert.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'd like to see where and when Martin Grime trained his dogs. I would like to see his training records. Please help with some links. I know who he has worked for but his training is not well known.

Well, I should say that his improper training is known. I would like to see more.

Are you qualified to inspect and issue a professional opinion on his training records?

IMO no, you're not.


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[Inana]

I'm not saying that the dogs alerted to the scent of a dead pig. What I'm saying is that when a HRD dog is trained to only alert to the scent of human decomposition and if they alert to the scent of a decomposing pig it's a good indication that either the dog wasn't trained well or the handler is "cueing" the dog to alert.

I found this

Martin Grimes : In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future. . http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm