DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[narlacat]

QUOTE<<(The baby's name "Azaria" meant just that), <<


Hi Rashomon
Please don't think I am siding with Aussie here, because I can assure you I'm not!
But, I really don't think that is what Azaria's name meant, I know there was rumour that it did mean that, but I think you will find that is BS.
If I have time, I'll try and find out what it really meant and come back to let you know.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

I agree the hair and necklace entangled IN the ligature knot is perplexing -- and I have no credible answer for it. But if JonBenet wasn't strangled by the ligature around her neck, then how WAS she strangled? The ligature seems to be the only game in town.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

It is perplexing is is not? The forensic evidence contradicts theories that have been popular for many years.

Certainly whatever you think, Lou Smit's intruder theory is dead in the water.

The ligature seems to be the only game in town.
BlueCrab

Well only if you accept this is what asphyxiated her, that she was asphyxiated is not really in question, just the method is now?


I would like to propose, until it is shown otherwise that the ligature and broken paintbrush handle are simply staging.

This would be consistent from what we already know about the crime scene in the wine-cellar.

Now this would not invalidate some of your ideas, since I reckon the staging in the wine-cellar was a revision of a prior staging, and what you consider indecent posing, based on the ligature loops and knots, may simply be the remnants of this staging.

That is her prior staging possibly involved her being tied up in some manner, maybe to reflect an abduction scenario, this would be consistent with other forensic evidence e.g. Ransom Note.

Although what is outlined above does not point the finger at anyone specific, not yet, along with the rest of the forensic evidence, some of which might make sense if integrated into a staging scenario, otherwise it appears peripheral, even separate to any particular theory.


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I would like to propose, until it is shown otherwise that the ligature and broken paintbrush handle are simply staging.

.

Its already been shown that deadly force was used on JBR, by means of the garrote. There was local hemorrhaging at the neck ligature mark.

I'm sure you meant that the ligatures (plural) and broken paintbrush are simply staging. Don't you think the perp had something going with all these cords besides staging? After all, the hair was completely entwined in the cord by the time the perp was done attacking JBR. That doesn't happen by itself.

 

[UKGuy]

Its already been shown that deadly force was used on JBR, by means of the garrote. There was local hemorrhaging at the neck ligature mark.

I'm sure you meant that the ligatures (plural) and broken paintbrush are simply staging. Don't you think the perp had something going with all these cords besides staging? After all, the hair was completely entwined in the cord by the time the perp was done attacking JBR. That doesn't happen by itself.

Holdontoyourhat,

We know that 'deadly force' was employed, her head trauma makes this perfectly obvious.

But that the ligature that was found around her neck was what asphyxiated her is not so obvious.

Of course her hair becoming embedded in the garrote, lets be semantically correct here, does not happen by itself, and thats why it points to staging, the forensic evidence is mounting that the wine-cellar was wholly a staged crime-scene.


.

 

[tipper]

QUOTE<<(The baby's name "Azaria" meant just that), <<


Hi Rashomon
Please don't think I am siding with Aussie here, because I can assure you I'm not!
But, I really don't think that is what Azaria's name meant, I know there was rumour that it did mean that, but I think you will find that is BS.
If I have time, I'll try and find out what it really meant and come back to let you know.

You're right - It does not mean Sacrifice in the Wilderness/Desert (I've seen both). According to Wiki it means Helped by God.

 

[narlacat]

Thanks tipper.
That is the correct meaning.
Azaria is a hebrew name which means' helped by God'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat,


But that the ligature that was found around her neck was what asphyxiated her is not so obvious.

.

Yes it is. Obviously, the ligature around her neck is what asphyxiated her. What else would have been used to asphyxiate her besides the neck ligature? Why would anyone even consider another means with such an effective one sitting right there?!?

Holdontoyourhat,


Of course her hair becoming embedded in the garrote, lets be semantically correct here, does not happen by itself, and thats why it points to staging, the forensic evidence is mounting that the wine-cellar was wholly a staged crime-scene.


.

Hair caught up in the garrote seems more likely than not, since we know the garrote was used in a violent way. IOW if there was no hair in the garrote, THEN you could consider it a prop.

 

[sissi]

I'm not sure how Meyer described the wrist bindings. The picture of the cord suggests the cord was on each wrist with fifteen inches between them. This IMO makes no sense, that is why I am willing to believe the wrists were tied together, with fifteen inches from those loops to the ones that "could have been" on her ankles. The distance between an average sized, standing six year old's wrists and ankles is about 15 inches.

 

[rashomon]

Thanks tipper.
That is the correct meaning.
Azaria is a hebrew name which means' helped by God'.

Thanks narlacat and tipper. I don't want to run off topic here, but it would really interest me who created the rumor that Azaria means 'sacrificed in the desert'. Or maybe this is a word with more than one meaning (so-called 'polysemantic' word)?.

I also read this in wikipedia:

This second investigation was held in September of the same year. Based on ultraviolet investigations of the jumpsuit that Azaria had been wearing on the night she disappeared by Dr James Cameron of the London Hospital Medical College, the new finding was made that Azaria had been killed with a pair of scissors and held by a small adult hand until she stopped bleeding.

This is one of the most mysterious cases in criminal history. Do Dingos have the habit of coming into people's tents who are camping? Aren't these wild dogs very shy? Do Dingo attacks on people happen often?

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE<<Do Dingos have the habit of coming into people's tents who are camping? Aren't these wild dogs very shy? Do Dingo attacks on people happen often?>>

Yes, Dingoes have been known to go into peoples tents when they are camping.
Government agencies now warn tourists that Dingoes 'are capable of killing people'.
Fraser Island in Queensland is home to roughly 150 wild Dingoes, it is a popular tourist destination with unspoiled beaches and great fishing and camping spots.
It was there in 2001 that a 9 yr old boy was attacked and killed by two Dingoes.
His 7 yr old brother was also attacked but survived.
More recently a family staying in a hotel there, scared a Dingo away that had come into their room and was only feet away from their baby lying on the bed.
The mother said that her husband had really had to stamp his feet and run at it to get it out of the room. It stood it's ground and was quite hard to get rid of.

It used to be that Dingoes were shy animals but their behaviour seems to be changing, they do not fear humans like they used to, well at least the ones on Fraser.
It is widely believed that is due to us feeding them and also photographing them.
There has been quite a dramatic change, their wariness of humans has become boldness and warnings to act with caution around them are warranted.

I do believe the Chamerlain baby was indeed taken by a Dingo.

 

[tipper]

I also read this in wikipedia:Quote:
This second investigation was held in September of the same year. Based on ultraviolet investigations of the jumpsuit that Azaria had been wearing on the night she disappeared by Dr James Cameron of the London Hospital Medical College, the new finding was made that Azaria had been killed with a pair of scissors and held by a small adult hand until she stopped bleeding.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainaccount.html

James Cameron was the final witness for the prosecution. Cameron, a professor of forensic medicine, testified that Azaria was killed by "a cutting instrument across the neck, or around the neck" held by a human. He exhibited to the jury slides of Azaria's clothing taken in his laboratory with ultra-violet light which he believed showed the pattern of bloodied fingers. Cross-examination focused attention on previous cases in which Cameron's pro-prosecution testimony had helped incriminate what turned out to be innocent suspects.
[…]
Phillips asked Lindy to place her index finger next to Cameron's exhibit which, the professor claimed, showed bloodied fingers. The point became obvious, when spectators realized that the print made by so-called bloodied fingers showed four phalanges, while Lindy Chamberlain, and virtually every other human on the planet, have only three.

 

[rashomon]

BlueCrab,

But what happens if it turns out that broken paintbrush handle, which was fashioned there in the wine-cellar, was applied after she was asphyxiated?

We know this because her hair is embedded in the knotting on the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, and there appear to be no abrasions resulting from this entanglement!

So I reckon the garrote is staging, and using it to speculate about a pepretrators motives will simply lead nowhere.

UK Guy, I too think the garroting was staged, but why would hair entangled in a garrote point to a staging in your opinion?
Just for the sake of the discussion, let's say the perp really wanted to kill JB by using the garotte. In that case, couldn't her hair have gotten entangled in the ligature and in the knotting of the paintbrush handle too?

 

[UKGuy]

UK Guy, I too think the garroting was staged, but why would hair entangled in a garrote point to a staging in your opinion?
Just for the sake of the discussion, let's say the perp really wanted to kill JB by using the garotte. In that case, couldn't her hair have gotten entangled in the ligature and in the knotting of the paintbrush handle too?

rashomon,

Lou Smit proposed that an Intruder killed JonBenet.

His main arguments were:

Parents loved their children.
Parents were of good character.
Parents had no criminal history.
Parents had no motive.

The Garotte:
This was constructed precisely and expertly, the killer was a sexual sadist, special knowledge was needed to do the knot-tying. They had done this before.

What the forensic evidence tells us is that whoever fashioned the garrote was no expert, and that their knot-tying skills were minimal.

BlueCrab has proposed that the garrote is the remains of an Erotic Asphyxiation, an idea which is implicit in Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, but the embedding of her hair in the knotting and her necklace being entangled in the ligature, rule out its use for this purpose, both would detract from this function.

If JonBenet had been asphyxiated with the garrote as we understand it, there should abrasions not only on her neck resulting from the entanglement of her necklace but her hair would have been torn from her scalp. Remember the coroner, John Meyer had to cut her hair, so to remove the garrote.

As it is we have her own dna under her fingernails and abrasions on her neck suggesting her hands were free at one point. But BlueCrab and others assert that her hands were not only bound, but were crossed!

Also on JonBenet's chin was a green paint strip and a fiber from the carpet outside the wine cellar. The green strip came from Patsy's paint tote just outside the wine cellar.

When you add in a lot of other ancillary forensic evidence, the cursory piece of duct tape placed on her mouth, her size-12 underwear, her barbie-nightgown, her asymmetric pigtails, that she was wiped down!

This is not forensic evidence that suggests to me that JonBenet was abducted from her bed by a sociopathic sexual sadist intent on perpetrating a homicide in which he/she would enact out bondage fantasies they had already commited before as intimated by Lou Smit.

So if her hair had not been embedded in the garrote knotting, or /and there were abrasions resulting from her necklace, or some of her hair had been ripped out from the roots as the garrote was applied then I would feel less confident proposing that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene.

So in answer to your question, the garrote was fashioned after she was asphyxiated, and her hair became embedded in the knotting at this point. So it forms part of the wine-cellar staging!

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE<<His main arguments were:

Parents loved their children.
Parents were of good character.
Parents had no criminal history.
Parents had no motive.>>


Parent's were good Christian folk that attended church regularly.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
The Garotte:
This was constructed precisely and expertly, the killer was a sexual sadist, special knowledge was needed to do the knot-tying. They had done this before.

What the forensic evidence tells us is that whoever fashioned the garrote was no expert, and that their knot-tying skills were minimal.

BlueCrab has proposed that the garrote is the remains of an Erotic Asphyxiation, an idea which is implicit in Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, but the embedding of her hair in the knotting and her necklace being entangled in the ligature, rule out its use for this purpose, both would detract from this function.

If JonBenet had been asphyxiated with the garrote as we understand it, there should abrasions not only on her neck resulting from the entanglement of her necklace but her hair would have been torn from her scalp. Remember the coroner, John Meyer had to cut her hair, so to remove the garrote.

As it is we have her own dna under her fingernails and abrasions on her neck suggesting her hands were free at one point. But BlueCrab and others assert that her hands were not only bound, but were crossed!

Also on JonBenet's chin was a green paint strip and a fiber from the carpet outside the wine cellar. The green strip came from Patsy's paint tote just outside the wine cellar.

When you add in a lot of other ancillary forensic evidence, the cursory piece of duct tape placed on her mouth, her size-12 underwear, her barbie-nightgown, her asymmetric pigtails, that she was wiped down!

This is not forensic evidence that suggests to me that JonBenet was abducted from her bed by a sociopathic sexual sadist intent on perpetrating a homicide in which he/she would enact out bondage fantasies they had already commited before as intimated by Lou Smit.

So if her hair had not been embedded in the garrote knotting, or /and there were abrasions resulting from her necklace, or some of her hair had been ripped out from the roots as the garrote was applied then I would feel less confident proposing that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene.

So in answer to your question, the garrote was fashioned after she was asphyxiated, and her hair became embedded in the knotting at this point. So it forms part of the wine-cellar staging!

Thanks for your explanations, UK Guy. I can see your point now.
I too would agree that the garrote as an EA device is complete nonsense, for not only was it poorly constructed, but hair embedded in that device points miles away from an EA scenario, not to mention the absurdity of JB as a six-year-old being a willing participant in such stuff.

I too think that the garrote was fashioned after JB was asphyxiated, but I think that she was already in a deep coma from the head injury when asphyxiated.
Do you think the person who killed JB asphyxiated her with the cord and then fashioned the garrote to make the scenario appear even more bizarre - so bizarre that no one should think the parents were involved?

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE<<Do you think the person who killed JB asphyxiated her with the cord and then fashioned the garrote to make the scenario appear even more bizarre - so bizarre that no one should think the parents were involved?>>

Yep.
I think the Ramsey's did what they thought they had to do.
I don't think they gave themselves any choice.
The sexual abuse also deflects away from the parent's, what type of parent would do that to their child?

 

[Brefie]

Do you think the person who killed JB asphyxiated her with the cord and then fashioned the garrote to make the scenario appear even more bizarre - so bizarre that no one should think the parents were involved?

I think the whole staging was fashioned so bizzarely so that folks would never believe the parents / family 'dunnit.'

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks for your explanations, UK Guy. I can see your point now.
I too would agree that the garrote as an EA device is complete nonsense, for not only was it poorly constructed, but hair embedded in that device points miles away from an EA scenario, not to mention the absurdity of JB as a six-year-old being a willing participant in such stuff.

I too think that the garrote was fashioned after JB was asphyxiated, but I think that she was already in a deep coma from the head injury when asphyxiated.
Do you think the person who killed JB asphyxiated her with the cord and then fashioned the garrote to make the scenario appear even more bizarre - so bizarre that no one should think the parents were involved?

rashomon,

We do not know with certainty that what asphyxiated her was the ligature!

She may have been asphyxiated in some other manner, then a staging prior to the wine-cellar was enacted to deflect blame from whomever killed her.

Remember she was found wrapped in a blanket, this suggests she was transported to the wine-cellar from somewhere else, trace elements of the forensic evidence in the wine-cellar was found in the basement and upstairs. So she may have originally been killed somewhere upstairs, then bound, redressed, those pigtails fashioned, also she may have been wearing that red turtleneck. That is the upstairs staging may have appeared very different to the one that transpired downstairs. You could also argue that most of her final appearance in the wine-cellar was done upstairs, but that someone decided how she looked did not match that of a sexually sadistic intruder, so drastic alterations were made?

Actually I think the garrote was applied as an afterthought, there was no masterplan, its purpose was to mask the real nature of JonBenet's death. In this it has been very very successful. Along with the Ramsey's promoting an intruder theory via media, Lou Smit, and all the internet forums theorizing over the typology and psychology of the sociopath who garroted JonBenet for his/her perverse sexual pleasure, the staging has worked, people have incorporated false, bogus forensic evidence into their theories, and guess what, to date, no one has been charged with her death.

Its likely the garrote was added as an adjustment to a prior staging to suggest JonBenet's death was a compulsive sexual homicide, and not some other kind of homicide. Not that it would be so bizarre it would deflect away from the parents, which it may do, but given the then circumstances, with her corpse lying in the wine-cellar on 26th December, the parents would have known that they were prime suspects regardless of the amount of staging anyone enacted.

So I think that the staging in the wine-cellar was undertaken to mask the true nature and circumstances surrounding her death. This is why there is so little forensic evidence, multiple versions of events, that is it was all engineered away.

.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This is why there is so little forensic evidence, multiple versions of events, that is it was all engineered away.

.

So little forensic evidence. Really?

1. Unusually long handwritten note, clearly written by someone involved with the murder, or the murderer himself.
2. Murder weapon A: Garrote and cord, surgically removed from the furrow in JBR's neck. (Murder weapon B is missing).
3. Secondary weapon: ligature apparently used to bind JBR's wrists, legs, ankles, etc.
4. JBR's body, with unidentified injuries not directly related to the neck ligature.
5. 911 call by distraught parents in search of their daughter. A call not even necessary to be made so early, given the terms of the ransom note. Ransom note terms that would at that moment become a moot point.

A homicide detective would have an unusually high amount of forensic evidence, IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

I am not a knot expert, but IMO the knots used to form the loops on the wrist cord were slip knots because slip knots lock up when tension is put on them (such as from the weight of JonBenet's body), but when the tension is relaxed (such as when John apparently cut her down A/O picked her up) the rope through the knot slides freely and the size of the loops can be adjusted easily.

If the slip knot that John was trying to untie on the wrist was under tension from the weight of JonBenet's body then it would have been very hard to untie. Once the tension was removed the knot would loosen and could be easily removed.

Slip knots can, of course, be used for hundreds of different applications, but they are used especially by such people as mountain climbers; those who climb trees and other heights such as hunters and tree trimmers; and by construction workers.

(Don't forget the heavy rope found in a bag in JAR's room.)

BlueCrab

OK thanks BlueCrab, I think I'm going to look up slipknots and see if I can construct one of my own. What you say sounds fine except that I seem to remember John saying the wrist knots were difficult to loosen when he found the body in the cellar. But I suppose you would say he was lying.