DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[rashomon]

The fact that none of the R's are fitting the standard 'child-murderer' stereotype, or the 'filicidal parent' stereotype, has nothing to do with staging.

Unless you're thinking that the R's hid their 'child-murderer personality' or their 'filicidal elements' ahead of time, as part of an elaborate staging scheme.

Not even the people who think the Ramseys are guilty believe that they had in any way beforehand planned the murder of their daughter.
Therefore 'child murderer' doesn't apply.
In all probability the JB case was the simple case of a parent snapping and losing it with irrepairable damage done through a head bash.

But the parent did not want to take responsibility for his/her action, the parent wanted to save his/her hide. Which is why a scene was staged. The other parent helped with the staging.

The staging done btw was not 'elaborate'; it was lousy.
The ransom note with its political message not fitting the staged sexual crime scene. Kidnapping for ransom not fitting the garotte killing scene either.
The wrist ties so poorly done with 15 1/2 inches between the left and right wrist, that even a child could have freed herself from such a ligature.
One ligature tied on top of a sleeve which no professional kidnapper would do.
These are just some examples of poor staging.

It is possible that the Ramseys thought JB was already dead when they put the ligature around her neck. In case they had confessed, the defense would probably have used this strategy.

 

[UKGuy]

You must consider the head bash and the ransom note in the JB case, which point to a whole different scenario.

rashomon,

Only the head bash is missing in this 11-year old girls case, it is the similarity of some of the forensic evidence that I find interesting.


.

 

[Seeker]

I think the person who tied the ligature around JB's hands was nervous and panicky, rushed for time, and hastily trying to put some kind of ligature around a dead (or almost dead) child's wrists and neck.

These ligatures scream staging, and they scream poor staging.

Not the one around the neck. If it were there just for staging then the coroner would not have listed "ligature strangulation" as the first cause of death.

 

[Seeker]

What have I missed? I didn't know the necklace was entangled in the ligature knot? Please can you tell me where you read/saw this BlueCrab. Thanks. I suppose it's in the autopsy report is it? I'm about to look it up again for the 500th time.

It was not entangled in the knot, just around the cord.
You can see this here.
Or on this autopsy photo.

 

[Seeker]

For those that might consider some scenarios can never occur, here is a case with some analysis of the autopsy.

There are many similarities with JonBenet's homicide:

The police were notified at approx 6am, that little Audra Matheny, had been found by her father dead in bed, she had been asphyxiated and sexually assaulted.

Some staging of the crime scene was attempted and later forensic evidence removal was undertaken (washing bed-sheets).

What some may find of interest are the correspondences of injuries, abrasions, and discharge from her nose and mouth, and blood from her vagina.

There are obviously differences in age and circumstance, and you cannot generalise from this case, but it may help shed some light (by analogy) on JonBenet's case.

http://www.tuttletimes.com/viewarticle.php?id=961
.

I don't see the similarities at all. JonBenet was not sexually assaulted with full penile penetration as this other child was by her "step" father. She was not sexually assaulted in her father's bed and then put into her own bed where she was later "found" dead. There would be more blood from a full penile penetration than from a digital penetration IMO.

From the article:

“There was mucus and blood coming out both nostrils and the mouth,” Forbis said months later, on the witness stand. “There was also blood stains on the pajamas - at the seat of the pajamas.” Forbis said that he saw a bruise on Audra’s left side, on her back, and scratches running in an outward angle from the center of her buttocks.

None of those are even similar to JonBenet's injuries or discharge of saliva on her cheek (she had NO blood discharge from her nose or mouth) and no dicharge at all from her nose. Here is the page of the autopsy that describes JonBenet's "discharge" (they aren't similar at all). BTW it's not uncomon for strangulation victims (or even hanging victims) to have discharge of saliva from the mouth.

JonBenet's sheets were not stripped right after she was found...if they were prior to the cops showing up we would never really know.

This child, Audra, was not strangled either. She was smothered, most probably by her step father's hand over her nose and mouth (causing the bleeding and bruises) while he raped her.

Sorry UKG, but if there are any similarities in this case from JonBenet's case I fail to see them.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see the similarities at all. JonBenet was not sexually assaulted with full penile penetration as this other child was by her "step" father. She was not sexually assaulted in her father's bed and then put into her own bed where she was later "found" dead. There would be more blood from a full penile penetration than from a digital penetration IMO.

From the article:

None of those are even similar to JonBenet's injuries or discharge of saliva on her cheek (she had NO blood discharge from her nose or mouth) and no dicharge at all from her nose. Here is the page of the autopsy that describes JonBenet's "discharge" (they aren't similar at all). BTW it's not uncomon for strangulation victims (or even hanging victims) to have discharge of saliva from the mouth.

JonBenet's sheets were not stripped right after she was found...if they were prior to the cops showing up we would never really know.

This child, Audra, was not strangled either. She was smothered, most probably by her step father's hand over her nose and mouth (causing the bleeding and bruises) while he raped her.

Sorry UKG, but if there are any similarities in this case from JonBenet's case I fail to see them.

Seeker,

Thank you for your remarks. And your conclusion:
Sorry UKG, but if there are any similarities in this case from JonBenet's case I fail to see them.

I read about many cases regarding child abduction, sexual assault etc which occur in the home, but this is the first one that I have ever read about, where there was crime-scene staging, and the 911 call was at around 6am, although not unique, also she had been sexually assaulted and asphyxiated.

All these features occurred in JonBenet's homicide!

I entered a few caveats in my original post, so I am not contending any similarities are exact, more that there is any at all.

I don't see the similarities at all. JonBenet was not sexually assaulted with full penile penetration as this other child was by her "step" father. She was not sexually assaulted in her father's bed and then put into her own bed where she was later "found" dead. There would be more blood from a full penile penetration than from a digital penetration IMO.

Now you do not know how JonBenet was sexually assaulted, but we do know she was wiped down, that is her genital area was wiped clean, so any absence of forensic evidence does not imply there was an absence of genital blood discharge.

I could suggest to you that JonBenet was assaulted by a male penis, but this does not need to mean full penetration, there was a scream reported that morning, possibly the sexual assault was abandoned at this point, but later the paintbrush handle was used to further assault JonBenet, thus obscuring the original assault, then it was employed in staging as a part of a garrote, all part of the rationale of someone who is thinking on their feet in an ad-hoc manner.

Even if you fail to see it, I can quite clearly discern two distinct cases of female child homicide, separated in time and space, but that have as a feature crime-scene staging in common!


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
We do not know with certainty that what asphyxiated her was the ligature!

What do you think asphyxiated JB?

rashomon,
Only the head bash is missing in this 11-year old girls case, it is the similarity of some of the forensic evidence that I find interesting.

A question, UKGuy: did you mean to write "Not only the head bash is missing in this 11-year-old girl's case"?
I only scanned through the linked site, but I think there wasn't a ransom note either.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Seeker,

Thank you for your remarks. And your conclusion:
Sorry UKG, but if there are any similarities in this case from JonBenet's case I fail to see them.

I read about many cases regarding child abduction, sexual assault etc which occur in the home, but this is the first one that I have ever read about, where there was crime-scene staging, and the 911 call was at around 6am, although not unique, also she had been sexually assaulted and asphyxiated.

All these features occurred in JonBenet's homicide!

I entered a few caveats in my original post, so I am not contending any similarities are exact, more that there is any at all.


Now you do not know how JonBenet was sexually assaulted, but we do know she was wiped down, that is her genital area was wiped clean, so any absence of forensic evidence does not imply there was an absence of genital blood discharge.

I could suggest to you that JonBenet was assaulted by a male penis, but this does not need to mean full penetration, there was a scream reported that morning, possibly the sexual assault was abandoned at this point, but later the paintbrush handle was used to further assault JonBenet, thus obscuring the original assault, then it was employed in staging as a part of a garrote, all part of the rationale of someone who is thinking on their feet in an ad-hoc manner.

Even if you fail to see it, I can quite clearly discern two distinct cases of female child homicide, separated in time and space, but that have as a feature crime-scene staging in common!


.

The similarities between these cases stops at the age and sex of the victim. The differences beyond that are staggering. There was no drawn-out ransom note, no Kaczynski-style 'you're not the only fat cat' or SBTC cryptic unintelligible messages. There was no headbash or garrote strangulation. The MO was vastly different.

And the psycho perp stepfather was arrested shortly thereafter. Whereas JBR's killer remains free despite three pages of handwriting and almost 10 years of study.

 

[UKGuy]

What do you think asphyxiated JB?


A question, UKGuy: did you mean to write "Not only the head bash is missing in this 11-year-old girl's case"?
I only scanned through the linked site, but I think there wasn't a ransom note either.

rashomon,
You typed:

You must consider the head bash and the ransom note in the JB case, which point to a whole different scenario.

I did state we could not generalise from this girls homicide, also what was relevant was the apparent forensic evidence, since there is no ransom note, then obviously you cannot compare things that are absent. So thats why I stated only the head bash was missing, the rest of the forensic evidence is similar, if only different in detail.

It is the possible positive comparisons that matter not the ones that are absent.

Remember in staged crime-scenes theorizing from an absence of evidence is extremely contentious since the absence of evidence may be deliberate!

JonBenet may have been either smothered by one hand whilst another was around her neck, or she was manually strangled or some else was placed around her neck restraining her from breathing, e.g. something from her bed!


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

rashomon,
You typed:


I did state we could not generalise from this girls homicide, also what was relevant was the apparent forensic evidence, since there is no ransom note, then obviously you cannot compare things that are absent. So thats why I stated only the head bash was missing, the rest of the forensic evidence is similar, if only different in detail.

It is the possible positive comparisons that matter not the ones that are absent.

Remember in staged crime-scenes theorizing from an absence of evidence is extremely contentious since the absence of evidence may be deliberate!

JonBenet may have been either smothered by one hand whilst another was around her neck, or she was manually strangled or some else was placed around her neck restraining her from breathing, e.g. something from her bed!


.

The assertion that JBR was strangled by something other than the garrote is the same as the following assertion: the car that caused the crash must be missing, even though there are already two damaged cars at the scene that traded paint!

Was there some actual forensic evidence we missed that would point to another cause of strangulation besides the garrote?

 

[Seeker]

Seeker,

Thank you for your remarks. And your conclusion:
Sorry UKG, but if there are any similarities in this case from JonBenet's case I fail to see them.

I read about many cases regarding child abduction, sexual assault etc which occur in the home, but this is the first one that I have ever read about, where there was crime-scene staging, and the 911 call was at around 6am, although not unique, also she had been sexually assaulted and asphyxiated.

All these features occurred in JonBenet's homicide!


I entered a few caveats in my original post, so I am not contending any similarities are exact, more that there is any at all.


Now you do not know how JonBenet was sexually assaulted, but we do know she was wiped down, that is her genital area was wiped clean, so any absence of forensic evidence does not imply there was an absence of genital blood discharge.

I defer to the pathologist on how she was sexually assaulted.
No, sorry we don't know she was "wiped down", and her genital area was certainly not "clean". That was a rumor started early on, not ever supported by any actual facts, or forensic evidence that I have ever seen. What they initially thought was semen actually turned out to be JonBenet's own urine on her thigh so I wonder how the "wiped down" rumor got started.

Have you read the autopsy in it's entirety? She was not raped the way Audra was. There was nothing more than a digital penetration since most of her hymen was still intact.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet6.html

Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 x 1 x 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

I could suggest to you that JonBenet was assaulted by a male penis, but this does not need to mean full penetration, there was a scream reported that morning, possibly the sexual assault was abandoned at this point, but later the paintbrush handle was used to further assault JonBenet, thus obscuring the original assault, then it was employed in staging as a part of a garrote, all part of the rationale of someone who is thinking on their feet in an ad-hoc manner.

Even if you fail to see it, I can quite clearly discern two distinct cases of female child homicide, separated in time and space, but that have as a feature crime-scene staging in common!


.

I don't care how you try to compare the 2 cases and if you see similarities in them that nobody else seems to, they just aren't similar IMO. Audra being placed back in her bed isn't any indicator of staging as nobody knows if she was actually still alive or not (except her step dad and he'll never admit it) at the time she was put back in her bed.

The scream reported by Melody Stanton was later recanted by her as well. Apparently she can't remember when, or if she really heard a scream. Nobody else reported any scream. Not sure if I remember correctly or not, but wasn't her tv on as well?

 

[UKGuy]

I defer to the pathologist on how she was sexually assaulted.
No, sorry we don't know she was "wiped down", and her genital area was certainly not "clean". That was a rumor started early on, not ever supported by any actual facts, or forensic evidence that I have ever seen. What they initially thought was semen actually turned out to be JonBenet's own urine on her thigh so I wonder how the "wiped down" rumor got started.

Have you read the autopsy in it's entirety? She was not raped the way Audra was. There was nothing more than a digital penetration since most of her hymen was still intact.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet6.html




I don't care how you try to compare the 2 cases and if you see similarities in them that nobody else seems to, they just aren't similar IMO. Audra being placed back in her bed isn't any indicator of staging as nobody knows if she was actually still alive or not (except her step dad and he'll never admit it) at the time she was put back in her bed.

The scream reported by Melody Stanton was later recanted by her as well. Apparently she can't remember when, or if she really heard a scream. Nobody else reported any scream. Not sure if I remember correctly or not, but wasn't her tv on as well?

Seeker,
I defer to your authority on this matter!

 

[narlacat]

<< Not sure if I remember correctly or not, but wasn't her tv on as well?>>

I've never read anywhere that her tv was on, but maybe I missed something.

 

[aussiesheila]

What I mean is, there's no connection between 'hair in the garrote' and 'staging'. IOW, hair caught up in the garrote doesn't support an argument for 'staging' at all. In fact, hair entwined in the garrote instead supports the opposite argument, that the garrote was involved in a violent attack on JBR.

Yes, that's what I thought too. I don't think the garrote had anything to do with staging. I think it was a breath control device used for the pleasure of the garroter. (not the garrotee as BlueCrab seems to think). The fact that the hair was entwined around the knot on the stick suggests to me that the stick contacted the neck at the edge of the hairline by being wound around and around the rope until the rope was short enough for the knot on the stick to become entangled with the hair as it was wound around further. IOW I think the garrote was USED for a purpose BEFORE death.

The second ligature is the one with the large functioning slip knot at one end and the smaller functioning double slip-knot at the other. The one that could have been used in combination with the first ligature (the one with the paintbrush handle, AKA garrote).

I'm still trying to work this one out. Leaving aside the question of whether they were around wrists or ankles, or linked in some way to the other ligature, I would just like to know how the knots work.

BlueCrab says there are 2 slipknots
rashomon says one or both are fixed knots
and you say there is a large functioning slip knot and a smaller functioning DOUBLE slip knot. So you seem to be saying the LOOP is part of the slip knot. I thought just the knot was the slip knot.

Can you explain how a double slipknot works? Is it the case that the size of each loop can be readily changed by pulling the end tail of the rope? Or is the sum length of the two loops fixed so that increasing the size of one automatically makes the other one smaller and vv?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm still trying to work this one out. Leaving aside the question of whether they were around wrists or ankles, or linked in some way to the other ligature, I would just like to know how the knots work.

BlueCrab says there are 2 slipknots
rashomon says one or both are fixed knots
and you say there is a large functioning slip knot and a smaller functioning DOUBLE slip knot. So you seem to be saying the LOOP is part of the slip knot. I thought just the knot was the slip knot.

Can you explain how a double slipknot works? Is it the case that the size of each loop can be readily changed by pulling the end tail of the rope? Or is the sum length of the two loops fixed so that increasing the size of one automatically makes the other one smaller and vv?

The photo of the second ligature shows a large loop at one end, with a knot. Its possibly a slipknot, adding length to the middle (15") section as the large loop is made smaller. However, it could be a fixed knot like rashomon says.

The photo shows a smaller double-loop at the other end, with a knot in its center. Its possible that both of these smaller loops are able to be sized smaller, as length is then added to the middle (15") section. I think these loops went around JBR's wrists, even though it wasn't found that way on her.

 

[rashomon]

I'm still trying to work this one out. Leaving aside the question of whether they were around wrists or ankles, or linked in some way to the other ligature, I would just like to know how the knots work.

BlueCrab says there are 2 slipknots
rashomon says one or both are fixed knots
and you say there is a large functioning slip knot and a smaller functioning DOUBLE slip knot. So you seem to be saying the LOOP is part of the slip knot. I thought just the knot was the slip knot.

According to Delmar England, a slip knot is simply a knot tied from one end of a rope (as opposed to e. g. to a knot tied from both ends of a rope, shoelaces for example).
This is what he wrote on Forums For justice ("Lassoing the Truth" thread)

The active phrase is &#8220;slipping knot&#8221; for slipping is exactly what
it does. The knot in focus is usually tied from one end of a
given length of cord or rope; one end as opposed to both ends
utilized in tying a shoelace. The slip knot is made by wrapping
cord around itself in a manner to create a knot.

And the way I understood it is that the term 'slip knot' in itself does not mean that it stays adjustable once it is pulled tight. That there are slip knots which can be pulled so tight that they can't be easily loosened anymore.
I think the bigger wrist ligature is such a slip knot pulled tight.

 

[aussiesheila]

It was not entangled in the knot, just around the cord.
You can see this here.
Or on this autopsy photo.

Thanks Seeker, that's what I thought.

 

[aussiesheila]

Thanks guys for your helpful comments.

Now, I just wish I could get you and other people to go to the Sundance site, click on ‘photos’, go to the second page of 'photos' and look at the 8th and 9th photos on that page which are of the under and upper sides respectively of the right wrist with the ligature still in place. I have asked twice already but it seems that no-one has done so as there have not yet been any comments posted on what can be seen in photo 9.

I am sure I can see part of what looks like a second loop on the upper wrist side of this ligature. You can actually see the knot as well. Maybe someone can work out what type of knot it is. It would appear that Meyer undid this knot to create the single large loop seen in the garotte5 photo but I find it strange that he did not mention undoing a knot in his report so I am wondering if I am seeing things. Perhaps no-one told Meyer that the ligature had been attached to the left wrist also but had been removed from it before he saw the body?

If there is in fact, a second loop wouldn't that change somewhat people's ideas about the purpose of the wrist ligature?

I also find it strange that the police did not question JR more thoroughly on the exact way the wrists were bound when he untied them.

 

[capps]

Quote from aussiesheila:
"I also find it strange that the police did not question JR more thoroughly on the exact way the wrists were bound when he untied them."

aussiesheila,

The police did ask John these questions,it is in interviews out there,you just have to search for them. But there was no need for John to be thoroughly questioned about it.JonBenet was in full rigor,nothing changed from the time John tried to loosen the ties on her wrist,to the time he brought her upstairs from the basement and put her on the floor. Linda Arndt,a police officer was right there ... all they needed to do was ask her.

 

[aussiesheila]

Quote from aussiesheila:
"I also find it strange that the police did not question JR more thoroughly on the exact way the wrists were bound when he untied them."

aussiesheila,

The police did ask John these questions,it is in interviews out there,you just have to search for them. But there was no need for John to be thoroughly questioned about it.JonBenet was in full rigor,nothing changed from the time John tried to loosen the ties on her wrist,to the time he brought her upstairs from the basement and put her on the floor. Linda Arndt,a police officer was right there ... all they needed to do was ask her.

Yes, they did ask him SOME questions, but I don't think they asked him enough.

Even after reading the transcripts of his 3 interviews I still can't work out which knot(s) of the wrist ligatures he undid. I understand that for people who think the Ramseys are guilty, how the two wrist were tied together is neither here nor there, but for an IDI believer, to know exactly HOW the wrists were tied together and whether or not they were tied in some way to the ankles would be of considerable significance, IMO.

There wouldn't have been any point in asking Linda Arndt; she only saw the wrist ligature AFTER John had untied the left wrist so she would be unable to tell how the wrists were tied together.

ETA: From what I understand, John loosened the cord around the left wrist only, freeing it completely from the cord and the right wrist before bringing the body upstairs thus Arndt would only have seen the cord attached to the right wrist and the left hand hanging free, but I may be wrong on this. Correct me if I am wrong, please.