DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[aussiesheila]

The double-loop knot wasn't necessarily used on JBR's ankles. The wrists were not necessarily bound by the single loop. JR didn't necessarily 'cut down' JBR, so no loop necessarily 'relaxed' and 'fell off the left wrist. These are all assumptions.

The only fact is that the larger loop was loosely hanging on the right wrist. All else is conjecture.

Yes, this is true Holdontoyourhat, it is a great shame IMO, that BlueCrab posts his theories in such a way as to present his assumptions as fact.

The autopsy report states that there was one length of cord wrapped extremely tightly around her neck and another length of cord tied loosely around her right wrist, garotte4 is the photo of the one Meyer removed from her neck and garotte5 is the one he removed from her right wrist.

He described the cord around her right wrist as having two ends, one of which was 15.5 inches long with a double loop knot at the end. The garotte5 photo showa one loop of the knot being larger than the other but both being smaller than the one taken from her right wrist.

If you go to the Sundance site and look at the 2 autopsy photos of her right wrist with the cord still around it, you can see the knot and one end on the inner side of her wrist. On the outer side of her wrist there looks to be a second loop on the loop around her wrist. It looks to me as though Dr Meyer would have undone that second loop in order to sufficiently loosen the cord and enable him to remove the loop around her right wrist. This would appear to have resulted in there being just one loop removed from her right wrist.

I think John must have loosened and removed the loop from her left wrist, but did not completely undo the second loop that was on it, so that when this loop was removed it remained as a double loop.

BlueCrab thinks the single loop was around both wrists and the double loop was around her ankles. But looking at the 4 photos I don’t agree and taking into account John’s description of how he untied her wrists and Meyer’s description of the cords in the autopsy report, I don’t think there was any cord around her ankles, I think there was a double loop around each wrist, but Meyer undid the second loop from the right wrist loop when he loosened it to take it off the wrist.

 

[BlueCrab]

Yes, this is true Holdontoyourhat, it is a great shame IMO, that BlueCrab posts his theories in such a way as to present his assumptions as fact.

The autopsy report states that there was one length of cord wrapped extremely tightly around her neck and another length of cord tied loosely around her right wrist, garotte4 is the photo of the one Meyer removed from her neck and garotte5 is the one he removed from her right wrist.

He described the cord around her right wrist as having two ends, one of which was 15.5 inches long with a double loop knot at the end. The garotte5 photo showa one loop of the knot being larger than the other but both being smaller than the one taken from her right wrist.

If you go to the Sundance site and look at the 2 autopsy photos of her right wrist with the cord still around it, you can see the knot and one end on the inner side of her wrist. On the outer side of her wrist there looks to be a second loop on the loop around her wrist. It looks to me as though Dr Meyer would have undone that second loop in order to sufficiently loosen the cord and enable him to remove the loop around her right wrist. This would appear to have resulted in there being just one loop removed from her right wrist.

I think John must have loosened and removed the loop from her left wrist, but did not completely undo the second loop that was on it, so that when this loop was removed it remained as a double loop.

BlueCrab thinks the single loop was around both wrists and the double loop was around her ankles. But looking at the 4 photos I don?t agree and taking into account John?s description of how he untied her wrists and Meyer?s description of the cords in the autopsy report, I don?t think there was any cord around her ankles, I think there was a double loop around each wrist, but Meyer undid the second loop from the right wrist loop when he loosened it to take it off the wrist.

aussiesheila,

The wrist ligature photo (garotte5) shows THREE loops, one at one end of the cord and two at the opposite end of the cord. The last time I looked JonBenet has just two wrists.

From the autopsy report:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed."

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

The wrist ligature photo (garotte5) shows THREE loops, one at one end of the cord and two at the opposite end of the cord. The last time I looked JonBenet has just two wrists.

From the autopsy report:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed."

BlueCrab

What I am saying BlueCrab is that it looks to me as though there were originally FOUR loops. A tight one around her left wrist with a smaller loop on it to pull the one around the wrist tight. Another tight one around her right wrist with a smaller on the loop on it to pull that one around her wrist tight. Two wrists, two loops each, four loops.

What I am saying is that John apparently struggled to separate her hands when he discovered the body at 1 pm. I think he loosened the one around the right wrist just a little, but loosened the one around the left wrist sufficiently to release her left hand, leaving one large loop that had been around her left wrist with the smaller loop on it still intact.

What I am also saying is that I think after the coroner had taken those photos, one of which seems to show two loops at the right wrist, one loop around the wrist and one loop on the other loop. I am saying that I think the coroner must have completely undone the loop on the loop making it into just one loop when he freed the right wrist from the cord. Three loops left, one from right wrist and two from left wrist.

That's my theory. I know your theory. It's one loop from two wrists and two loops from two ankles. I believe mine. And you can believe yours. That's OK isn't it?

But just have another look at those two photos of the cord around the right wrist will you please?

 

[BlueCrab]

What I am saying BlueCrab is that it looks to me as though there were originally FOUR loops. A tight one around her left wrist with a smaller loop on it to pull the one around the wrist tight. Another tight one around her right wrist with a smaller on the loop on it to pull that one around her wrist tight. Two wrists, two loops each, four loops.

What I am saying is that John apparently struggled to separate her hands when he discovered the body at 1 pm. I think he loosened the one around the right wrist just a little, but loosened the one around the left wrist sufficiently to release her left hand, leaving one large loop that had been around her left wrist with the smaller loop on it still intact.

What I am also saying is that I think after the coroner had taken those photos, one of which seems to show two loops at the right wrist, one loop around the wrist and one loop on the other loop. I am saying that I think the coroner must have completely undone the loop on the loop making it into just one loop when he freed the right wrist from the cord. Three loops left, one from right wrist and two from left wrist.

That's my theory. I know your theory. It's one loop from two wrists and two loops from two ankles. I believe mine. And you can believe yours. That's OK isn't it?

But just have another look at those two photos of the cord around the right wrist will you please?

aussiesheila,

The coroner in his autopsy report didn't say anything about the double loop knot being on the wrists. He simply said the single wrist knot had a 15.5 inch tail that ended with a double loop knot.

Your theory about there originally having been four loops, and all of them just to tie JonBenet's wrists together, seems unnecessary.

BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

Black tape on Jonbenet's legs...tape is not duct tape nor electrical tape..is black and white..odd..
Can we discuss this? Any thoughts on why we never heard of tape on her legs?

 

[BlueCrab]

Black tape on Jonbenet's legs...tape is not duct tape nor electrical tape..is black and white..odd..
Can we discuss this? Any thoughts on why we never heard of tape on her legs?

sissi,

What are you talking about? Where did you hear this?

 

[BlueCrab]

Aussiesheila,

There's no evidence of the wrist cord ever having had a fourth loop on it. There are just two knots on the wrist cord. One knot makes the single loop wrist ligature; the other knot at the opposite end of the cord makes the double loop of what is, IMO, the ankle ligature.

The crime scene photo plainly shows three loops and two knots. John would have been able to loosen a knot, but not likely able to completely untie and make disappear a knot on the wrist cord while the cord was still on the body. And the coroner certainly would not have completely untied and removed a knot, thus ruining an important item of crime scene evidence.

The photo showing three loops and two knots IMO is correct.

BlueCrab

 

[capps]

capps,

Depending on how it was tied, the double loop knot on the ankles could have loosened up immediately when the weight of the body was removed from it.

Also, the foot size of six-year-old 45-pound females isn't very big.

BlurCrab

BlueCrab,

Of course I took into consideration JonBenet's small feet,I also see the picture of the small loop,which is now relaxed,and I still think it would be too small to go over her foot without cutting it.Nylon cord is not like a rubber band,it doesn't tend to stretch.

Could it be that the single loop was for her ankles,the other double knot loop was for her wrists,and the small loop was to hang over something,so JonBenet was suspended .. and that is why her arms were raised over her head in rigor mortis?

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Of course I took into consideration JonBenet's small feet,I also see the picture of the small loop,which is now relaxed,and I still think it would be too small to go over her foot without cutting it.Nylon cord is not like a rubber band,it doesn't tend to stretch.

Could it be that the single loop was for her ankles,the other double knot loop was for her wrists,and the small loop was to hang over something,so JonBenet was suspended .. and that is why her arms were raised over her head in rigor mortis?

capps,

No, it wouldn't work. Reversing the ends of the loops on the wrist cord doesn't correspond with the coroner's explanation. Meyer said there was a loosely-tied cord on JonBenet's right wrist (the large single loop that, IMO, had held the wrists together) and on the opposite end of the 15.5 inch cord there was a double loop knot (the loops of which IMO, were on each ankle).

BlueCrab

 

[narlacat]

<<and that is why her arms were raised over her head in rigor mortis?>>


I thought they were in that position from being dragged.

 

[BlueCrab]

What I can't work out is why the necessity for a stick at the end of the ligature? Wouldn't just pulling the cord work?

aussiesheila,

IMO the wooden stick, which was fabricated from one of Patsy's paint brushes, had a very special purpose for the killer, and that purpose was to further humiliate the victim. Remember, the autopsy revealed a piece of birefringent foreign material in JonBenet's vagina. The stick had a glistening painted surface and the word "Korea" also painted on it, so the foreign material in her vagina was almost certainly a chip of paint from the fractured stick.

The stick was tied to one end of the 17 inch cord which had the neck ligature fashioned on the opposite end. The approximate distance between the ligature on JonBenet's neck and her crotch is 17 inches.

If I am correct about the double loop holding each of JonBenet's ankles, then it surely means she was obscenely posed after death with her legs suspended in the air for maximum shock value; and the stick was likely inserted into the vagina and left there to further heap humiliation on the all-American white, privileged, beautiful, high profile child beauty queen. If so, the murder is a political message with envy and retribution written all over it.

IMO the murderer, who was the fifth person in the house that night, is known to the Ramseys or they wouldn't be lying and covering up to protect him. The coverup means a Ramsey was also involved.

BlueCrab

 

[Voice of Reason]

Tape on the legs?

John's '97 interview:

TT: When you saw the white blanket, was JonBenet completely covered up? How was she laying there, cause I wasn’t there that day.
JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.

Black and white tape?

John's '98 interview:

12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember
13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct
15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It
17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

 

[capps]

Let me see if I understand what John said:

It wasn't duct tape.
It wasn't electrical tape.
It was black.
It was kind of white,black.

I need a drink ...

 

[tipper]

Tape on the legs?

John's '97 interview:

TT: When you saw the white blanket, was JonBenet completely covered up? How was she laying there, cause I wasn’t there that day.
JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.

Black and white tape?

John's '98 interview:
n
12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember
13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct
15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It
17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

This could be simply a transcription error and what he actually said was "It was kind of like black, unusual tape."

 

[capps]

The only other kind of tape I can think of is ...I'll try to explain it: It looks almost like masking tape,but it's muted black in color,and has almost a "cloth" texture to it. The adhesive side is very sticky. Is there a specific name to this tape? Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[sandraladeda]

From the perspective of this Canadian who has known her share of hockey players (my hubby and son play hockey) this sounds like hockey tape. The dang tape is always kicking around the house! In recent years I have seen it in different colors, but traditionallly, and certainly 9 years ago, black was the most common color of hockey tape produced.

Have I cracked the case?

 

[sissi]

I "still" think it was gaffer's tape. No matter what kind of tape, the rest of the roll was missing, however, it seems there was more at the scene than the one piece over her mouth. There was tape on her legs?

 

[capps]

I may not know where all the items have gone missing ... but I have a hunch that the perp got all he needed,right from Patsy's paint tote.

paint brush

tape - refered to as "painters tape",that is sometimes used by artist.

nylon cord - used to hang pictures.

small knife - used to cut the tape and cord.

Patsy wasn't the neatest person,as she admitted herself.I think all the items above were her little artist things,just thrown nilly willy in her tote.

I am not suggesting that Patsy was involved in JB's murder,just that her painting tote was where the perp may have found what he needed.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm going to repeat the question. Was there really black tape on the legs?

 

[BlueCrab]

I'm going to repeat the question. Was there really black tape on the legs?

txsvicki,

There was no tape on the legs. There's nothing in the autopsy report about it or in the police list of items removed from the house as evidence. The only tape on JonBenet was a 5 inch long strip of black Shurtape brand duct tape, that had been manufactured in North Carolina. The type of tape was verified by two BPD detectives who visited the Shurtape factory in Hickory, N.C. and had the tape from JonBenet examined. It was determined that the tape was from a roll manufactured about 4 to 6 weeks before the murder.

The roll from which the tape had been cut was never found and there was no tape elsewhere in the Ramsey house that matched it. A piece of duct tape cannot be transported unless on its roll. Therefore, it appears the killer brought the roll of tape with him and took it with him when he left the house following the killing. If he used any of the tape for anything other than across JonBenet's mouth, he had to have ripped it back off and taken it with him.

IMO the killer was the mysterious fifth person in the house that night who had likely been let into the house by a Ramsey. That person would have scooped up as much incriminating evidence as he could when leaving and he is the likely source of all of the missing crime scene evidence.

A Ramsey is also involved in this bizarre murder or there would be no need for the Ramsey lies, coverup, and refusals to cooperate with the investigation.

BlueCrab