Dubbed "Vodka Mom" in scathing Nancy Grace segment, MN woman burns self to death

[jjenny]

You are driving down a busy expressway. You accidentially cut off a driver you've just passed by changing lanes (your fault, through your negligence). That driver then pulls out a gun, waves it around towards you. You can tell that that driver is royally p!ssed at you. Flustered, you lose control of your car and crash into a guardrail. Did the other driver's actions contribute to your accident, or not?

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't really see the analogy to the case we are discussing.

 

[oh_gal]

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't really see the analogy to the case we are discussing.

I must be losing my touch, then.

 

[Seek&Find]

So even if Nancy led a public stoning, she bears no responsibility since Mom was guilty anyway. Fair enough-we have a microcosm of the court of public opinion here. We judge here too.

I know I keep banging this drum, but where is the outrage regarding Dad's inaction? We should be frothing at the mouth-he let his son die too.

No one said anything along the lines of this hyperbole, and misrepresenting other's views does not aid intelligent consideration of the facts, IMO.

The implications of public stoning are that:
1) NG directly encouraged others
2) to intentionally harm someone
3) in a way to purposefully cause his/her death.

(as well as that, 1) the public followed suit, 2) and intentionally harmed Toni 3) to take her life.)

Compassion & accountability for Toni and empathy for the family have been expressed, while acknowledging that the husband shouldn't have left his alcoholic spouse in charge of the children, or the baby lying with the mother. Now, he could've tried to take the baby back to his crib, and she resisted, or he could've been in codependent mode and didn't try, to avoid a fight. We don't know. (Articles do note he's the one who called 911 & he was performing CPR on little Adrian when EMTs arrived.) The potential enabling by others around Toni and their ability to intervene has been brought up.

We do however know more about Toni's choices and can thus examine them.

We should "froth at the mouth" over Dad yet not consider Mom's actions? He is not more culpable than Toni is.

“Irrespective of the ultimate outcome in this matter, I hope that valuable lessons can be learned from these very tragic circumstances,” said Washington County Attorney Pete Orput.

link

I agree with above quote. Once the tremendous grief and loss has been processed, those around Toni will hopefully bravely examine the role they played in this family system and the tragic outcomes.

There's far more at play here than NG's comments and to try to lay so much of this on her doorstep is to lose sight of the many lessons here.

Moo

 

[not_my_kids]

I'm starting to lose sight of one side of this argument.

Let's say that some celebrity (Sheen, Lohan, whatever) has an alcohol problem, gets drunk, crashes their car, and kills someone in the other car. They are awaiting trial and possibly facing jail time. Let's say that one of the talking head news shows has a call in hour about this incident. Let's say that I call in and say, "This celeb is nothing but a drunk and they are a killer!" And then I call them all sorts of catchy but profanity free names. And then three weeks later, the celebrity kills themselves.

Am I to blame? I doubt it.

Just because NG is on tv, doesn't mean she is necessarily held to a higher standard. Obviously, she isn't. If anything her standards of behavior are lowered by the public, because if any of us ever went around in pubic insulting, screaming, and accusing everyone we saw with no proof, we wouldn't have very many friends, let alone a TV show of our own. If NG had lied in this particular segment, that would be one thing, but regardless of the way that she said it, everything she said about this woman was the truth...albeit regurgitated from the six o'clock news.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I have another analogy.

This mom consumes a fifth of vodka. Decides she needs more. Puts infant in the car. Gets in a head on collision. Kills infant and family of 4.

Is she a criminal? After all, she didn't MEAN to kill them. It was a horrible accident right? She should be treated with care and compassion.

NOT IMO

And what this mother actually did the night she smothered her baby with her drunken body was no less of a crime.
This was no tragic accident.
This was murder.

I have a hard time sympathizing with her. If not for HER actions, that baby would be alive today.

JMO

 

[oh_gal]

I have another analogy.

This mom consumes a fifth of vodka. Decides she needs more. Puts infant in the car. Gets in a head on collision. Kills infant and family of 4.

Is she a criminal? After all, she didn't MEAN to kill them. It was a horrible accident right? She should be treated with care and compassion.

NOT IMO

And what this mother actually did the night she smothered her baby with her drunken body was no less of a crime.
This was no tragic accident.
This was murder.

I have a hard time sympathizing with her. If not for HER actions, that baby would be alive today.

JMO

Just to clarify, again, I am not saying the mother was not horribly negligent in her actions. And you are correct, if not for her actions (or the in-action of her husband) the baby would, most probably, be alive today.

Given your personal experiences with alcoholics (which you have alluded to on this thread), it is understandable that this particular situation would hit very close to home for you.

For reference purposes, one definition of murder (there are probably many, I'm sure) is:

mur·der
   [mur-der] Show IPA
noun
1.
Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder

****

Based upon this definition, I don't find that the mother had a)malice aforethought; b)did not premeditate; and had no c)intent to kill her child.

She killed her child through her actions. But was it murder, or negligence due to her drinking? And would that make her husband an accessory, because he did nothing to stop it?

 

[Seek&Find]

I don't know that I'd call it murder as much as negligence with depraved indifference.

ETA: Hm. According to this link defining "depraved indifference," this may rise to the legal definition of murder.

"to bring defendant’s conduct within the murder statute, the People were required to establish also that defendant’s act was imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death to others and that it was committed under circumstances which evidenced a wanton indifference to human life or a depravity of mind. . . . . The crime differs from intentional murder in that it results not from a specific, conscious intent to cause death, but from an indifference to or disregard of the risks attending defendant’s conduct." 60 NY2d at 274.

Intoxication addressed at link as well.

 

[HMSHood]

Ryan was fleeing from the police though after killing Jasmine Fiore -- who was brutally beaten, her teeth pulled out of her head, her fingers removed to conceal identity and folded up into a suitcase.

Good riddance to him -- I don't blame that on Nancy Grace one bit. While I do believe she's over the top, I don't think she drives anyone to suicide.

Just my opinion - thanks.

Melanie

Never heard of Ryan Jenkins committing suicide because of Nancy Grace. I thought he did it because he was a coward.

 

[packerdog]

Nancy Grace brings these cases to light and gives her opinion . If she saved one mother from sleeping with her baby in a drunken stupor I say job well done.

 

[oh_gal]

Sigh.

All hail, Hero Nancy.

 

[katydid23]

Sigh.

All hail, Hero Nancy.

Maybe that 'vodka-mom' actually found her way here, to this forum. And maybe, right before she set herself on fire, she happened upon a thread HERE,
where many WS members voiced their outrage that she drunkenly smothered her baby.

Would that make US partially responsible for her suicide?

 

[oh_gal]

Maybe that 'vodka-mom' actually found her way here, to this forum. And maybe, right before she set herself on fire, she happened upon a thread HERE,
where many WS members voiced their outrage that she drunkenly smothered her baby.

Would that make US partially responsible for her suicide?

I guess that would depend upon whether or not one had a conscience.

And please, do not take my response to imply that I condone or agree with what this mom did. It was, as I've said, horrific. As much hatred and/or outrage has been directed at her, that was probably 1/10 of what she felt towards herself.

I just simply refuse to jump on the bandwagon and attack her, because the damage has already been done, and what good would it do, other than to perhaps make me feel as though I'm part of the "team" for a day?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Just to clarify, again, I am not saying the mother was not horribly negligent in her actions. And you are correct, if not for her actions (or the in-action of her husband) the baby would, most probably, be alive today.

Given your personal experiences with alcoholics (which you have alluded to on this thread), it is understandable that this particular situation would hit very close to home for you.

For reference purposes, one definition of murder (there are probably many, I'm sure) is:

mur·der
   [mur-der] Show IPA
noun
1.
Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder

****

Based upon this definition, I don't find that the mother had a)malice aforethought; b)did not premeditate; and had no c)intent to kill her child.

She killed her child through her actions. But was it murder, or negligence due to her drinking? And would that make her husband an accessory, because he did nothing to stop it?

Like I said, I say it's murder.
No matter the legal definition.

And my personal experiences really have no bearing on my opinion that all deaths of children due to the actions of drunk parents are murder.

I brought up my personal experience in conversation to make a point that I know how alcoholics work.

That has nothing to do with why this hits close to home for me.
I'm a mother who would do anything to protect my child. THAT'S what makes it hit close to home for me.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I guess that would depend upon whether or not one had a conscience.

And please, do not take my response to imply that I condone or agree with what this mom did. It was, as I've said, horrific. As much hatred and/or outrage has been directed at her, that was probably 1/10 of what she felt towards herself.

I just simply refuse to jump on the bandwagon and attack her, because the damage has already been done, and what good would it do, other than to perhaps make me feel as though I'm part of the "team" for a day?

This post implies those of us who criticize this mother have no conscience.

It also implies we are on some sort of bandwagon or are only doing so to fit in.

All of which is offensive to be honest.

 

[MNlady]

I have another analogy.

This mom consumes a fifth of vodka. Decides she needs more. Puts infant in the car. Gets in a head on collision. Kills infant and family of 4.

Is she a criminal? After all, she didn't MEAN to kill them. It was a horrible accident right? She should be treated with care and compassion.NOT IMO

And what this mother actually did the night she smothered her baby with her drunken body was no less of a crime.
This was no tragic accident.
This was murder.

I have a hard time sympathizing with her. If not for HER actions, that baby would be alive today.

JMO

BBM
In my state (and hers) that would be 'criminal vehicular homicide' plus the DWI and negligence and anything else they could thow at her. She would get several years in prison. I have no doubt she would have gotten a prison sentence for smothering her child too.

IMO I am really surprised that more people havn't killed their children with the current co-sleeping with their kids...even without the vodka, people who are hard sleepers would never know they'd rolled onto a baby. My ex would never ever have known until it was too late...in fact, I came home from the laundromat once and our oldest was darn close to being under him~! :what: Never had the chance to happen ever again. :maddening:

 

[oh_gal]

This post implies those of us who criticize this mother have no conscience.

It also implies we are on some sort of bandwagon or are only doing so to fit in.

All of which is offensive to be honest.

With all due respect, Kimberly, some of us are just easily offended.

(And, just to be clear, I was giving my opinion, which I was asked to do in the post. The statement you read regarding the having or not having a conscience, was my opinion. If you read my post carefully, you will see that (i.e. when I start the sentence with "I guess..." vs. "The facts state", it is my opinion.) If you find my opinion offensive, please do not feel led to read my posts.)

 

[LisaB]

I am not sure what you mean by responsibility. I've yet to hear about a single case in US where someone was charged with driving somebody to suicide.

I am aware of at least 2.

 

[LisaB]

SBM

I think the fact that she had two DUI's that month, and also ignored her husbands warning about sleeping on the couch with the baby, right before she passed out and killed the child, is much more of a trigger than anything NG said.

SBM

So is he ALSO negligent for not removing the baby and putting it in its bassinet or crib when he felt she was putting it in danger?

 

[jjenny]

I am aware of at least 2.

Link?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

With all due respect, Kimberly, some of us are just easily offended.

(And, just to be clear, I was giving my opinion, which I was asked to do in the post. The statement you read regarding the having or not having a conscience, was my opinion. If you read my post carefully, you will see that (i.e. when I start the sentence with "I guess..." vs. "The facts state", it is my opinion.) If you find my opinion offensive, please do not feel led to read my posts.)

We all state our opinions here.
It's called conversation.

It was my opinion your post was offensive. I stated that opinion.