Eerie Similarity?

[shamu]

What man has chosen to do in His name isn't His fault, it is man's fault.

It's not right that men blame gods that they themselves invented.

 

[shamu]

I have always thought that unbelievers can be good people but might be capable of being more evil due to their unsaved situation.

And I have always thought that believers could be good people, but we’ll never know if any truly are.

Would they still act like good people if they knew there was no afterlife? How would they act if there was no hell? Would they still do good if they no longer had their selfish reasons, ie., heaven as a carrot-on-a-stick?

 

[shamu]

I do not believe that a person's religion is a cause for parents going insane and killing children.

You can believe what you want, but your beliefs are wrong. Read up about familicide and the motives behind it. I lost a friend in 1992 to this psychological phenomenon---which does exist, whether you choose to see or not. Her devout father slaughtered 6 including himself (and including MY FRIEND). This simply doesn't happen without the dangling carrot delusional belief in an afterlife. It does not happen. The godless do not go room to room, bed to bed, to kill wife, children, grandchildren, self. That is a distinctly religious act.

 

[Barbara]

It's really amusing to me to see so many posters who think that all those with Christian beliefs are psycho and evil. I have always thought that unbelievers can be good people but might be capable of being more evil due to their unsaved situation. To each his own I guess. I do not believe that a person's religion is a cause for parents going insane and killing children. They are already insane and it could be that the religion is masking some of the symptoms. If you notice, Delaney was the grandiose one, having all these special signs from God and she thought that she and Andrea Yates were the prophets of the last days. It was all about her and she was above the law, the teachings of Jesus, and even the Ten Commandments. It was not really about religion or God. I didn't see anything too extreme in what Patsy said though. It really is perfectly normal for millions of people and has been for thousands of years now. On the other hand, Patsy has acted like it is all about her and it is very weird to have no anger towards the murderer. I think she could have killed JonBenet but her religion has nothing to do with it, it is her own self absorbed, flawed , selfish self that is at the root. Most people do have some sort of religious beliefs and naturally there are going to be some mentally ill people incorporating it into their psychosis.

The first problem in your post is one of the reasons I feel the way I do. Not everyone is a "Christian". Notice how you speak of the critique of Christianity as the topic, yet the topic was "religion". It's these subtleties that make people feel the way they do. I notice these things because I am Jewish and I always notice that when the topic of religion comes up, people like yourself talk about non-believers as critics of "Christianity". There are other religions!

And yes, over-zealous religious upbringings CAN and DO cause psychoses!

I really opened up a can of worms here as I expected. I apologize if anyone is upset, but now you know why I hesitate to discuss it. :truce:

 

[cookie]

"This simply doesn't happen without the dangling carrot delusional belief in an afterlife. It does not happen. The godless do not go room to room, bed to bed, to kill wife, children, grandchildren, self. That is a distinctly religious act."

I'm so very sorry about you losing your friend and their family. But,why would the belief in an afterlife cause something like this to happen? The problem with the man was within himself, not in his religion. That is, unless he belonged to a type of religion that truly taught and promoted that sort of action. Like anything else, there are those within their religions who are mentally sick to begin with. Then there are always those who claim that God told them to do all those bad things in hopes that juries will feel compassion on them and get lighter sentences or be sent to hospital institutions instead of prisons.

 

[cookie]

"The main point is that there does not have to be any history and pathology and "warning signs" for something horrific to occur where it had never happened before."

"What also struck me is that for both of these cases, the crime was so horrific in nature and very sick. It seems that for women like this with "wonderful lives and families", when they break, they break in a massive way."

This is so true. I really think that the signs are there, but they are so held-in that nobody can see them. In other words, there were things in their lives and in their minds, but nobody can get into another's mind to know their inward feelings. For instance, if I were to commit suicide today, everyone would say that they never saw any indications, that I would be the last person in the world to do something like that, and they would be totally shocked. But, in reality, I have contemplated it numerous times in my mind. Unless I mention it so someone or do the obvious things that people have learned to watch for in these instances, nobody would be the wiser. I hope I am explaining it the way I am thinking it in my head.

 

[BlueCrab]

And yes, over-zealous religious upbringings CAN and DO cause psychoses!

I really opened up a can of worms here as I expected. I apologize if anyone is upset, but now you know why I hesitate to discuss it. :truce:

No apology is needed. IMO it's appropriate to discuss religion when analyzing the JonBenet Ramsey murder. Extreme religious beliefs coupled with a psychotic personality by Patsy could have been the cause of death and the bizarre staging that followed. I personally don't think that's what happened, but it's possible.

For instance, extreme religious beliefs is the basis of the current war on terrorism. A handfull of psychotic clerics have managed to poison the minds of millions of muslims into believing that all non-believers of Islam must die. Patsy could have temporarily lapsed into having similar kinds of outrageous religous thoughts about JonBent.

JMO

 

[why_nutt]

Here is the latest on the case:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA69M9SISD.html

A housewife said the first sign that God wanted her to kill her three boys came Mother's Day weekend when she saw her 14-month-old playing with a toy spear.

Deanna Laney said she resisted at first, but the signs kept coming. The baby came to her with a rock, and later in the day squeezed a frog, and she believed God was suggesting that she should either stab, stone or strangle her children.

A sobbing Laney recounted in a videotape played at her capital murder trial Wednesday how she smashed her sons' skulls with rocks to prove her faith to God.

"I was telling him no, and each time it was getting worse and worse, the way that it would have to be done," Laney said. "I thought it was the Lord saying to me, 'You're just going to have to step out in faith. This is faith. You can't see why. You just got to.'"

Well, well, well. How is this substantially different from Patsy claiming that she saw JonBenet dead in a coffin, a sight which distressed her on Christmas Eve? How is this different from Patsy's claim that she believes she wove death into her Christmas tree when she chose purple as a color to decorate with? How is this substantially different from Patsy's rationalizations for JonBenet's death that JonBenet is in a better place and that her little, six-year-old daughter had fulfilled her mission on earth?

 

[shamu]

why would the belief in an afterlife cause something like this to happen?

It’s hard to study this since it’s relatively uncommon, & the perps who could explain their motives are either dead or they are lying. They seem to be saving family members(s) from difficulty in the here-&-now, and providing them something better (in the afterlife).

 

[Cypros]

Thanks for starting this thread! I have been sitting here watching the Laney cae on CourtTV and wondering why there isn't more attention being paid to this common phenomenon of strongly religious people killing their families. In the Laney case, the defense is trying to use her strong faith and daily bible readings as an example of what a good person she was and why nobody could have guessed there was something wrong. I'm thinking this is evidence for the prosecution that there were sign all over the place. Same with Andrea Yates -- and then there is Patsy Ramsey. There is something wrong with this woman and it is expressed through her religious ideology.

Isn't it sad that those of us who do not require the threats of hell and damnation to live honest, productive lives are made to feel hesitant to express our opinions and beliefs? Murder is being carried out in the name of God every day and yet somehow WE'RE the damned ones!??

 

[tipper]

Well, well, well. How is this substantially different from Patsy claiming that she saw JonBenet dead in a coffin, a sight which distressed her on Christmas Eve? How is this different from Patsy's claim that she believes she wove death into her Christmas tree when she chose purple as a color to decorate with? How is this substantially different from Patsy's rationalizations for JonBenet's death that JonBenet is in a better place and that her little, six-year-old daughter had fulfilled her mission on earth?

As I recall Patsy came up with most of those interpretations after the murder. I think people frequently look back and try to see a warning or portent to catastrophe. Just as they often say a dead loved one is in a better place and that there was a reason for their death. This Texas woman was seeing all the death stuff before she killed her children.

Also - Shylock

Although you find Patsy's "Hold your babies close" statement to be "stupid." I find it interesting because it is almost verbatim what my brother's long-time girlfriend said to me on the phone the night my brother was killed. She was talking about husbands but the rest was identical. So I don't find it stupid - I find it reflects real life.

 

[Barbara]

As I recall Patsy came up with most of those interpretations after the murder. I think people frequently look back and try to see a warning or portent to catastrophe. Just as they often say a dead loved one is in a better place and that there was a reason for their death. This Texas woman was seeing all the death stuff before she killed her children.

Unfortunately, the fact that she actually had some really strange dreams and things to interpret came before the murder and that is what is so "red flag" for many of us. Like the woman in Texas who said God was speaking to her. Nobody in her particular culture found that to be a warning sign, but for many of us, that would have been a double red flag.

Also - Shylock

Although you find Patsy's "Hold your babies close" statement to be "stupid." I find it interesting because it is almost verbatim what my brother's long-time girlfriend said to me on the phone the night my brother was killed. She was talking about husbands but the rest was identical. So I don't find it stupid - I find it reflects real life.[/

The difference is that your brother's girlfriend (I assume) was not involved or responsible for his death.

 

[Barbara]

Here is the latest on the case:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA69M9SISD.html

A housewife said the first sign that God wanted her to kill her three boys came Mother's Day weekend when she saw her 14-month-old playing with a toy spear.

Deanna Laney said she resisted at first, but the signs kept coming. The baby came to her with a rock, and later in the day squeezed a frog, and she believed God was suggesting that she should either stab, stone or strangle her children.

A sobbing Laney recounted in a videotape played at her capital murder trial Wednesday how she smashed her sons' skulls with rocks to prove her faith to God.

"I was telling him no, and each time it was getting worse and worse, the way that it would have to be done," Laney said. "I thought it was the Lord saying to me, 'You're just going to have to step out in faith. This is faith. You can't see why. You just got to.'"

Well, well, well. How is this substantially different from Patsy claiming that she saw JonBenet dead in a coffin, a sight which distressed her on Christmas Eve? How is this different from Patsy's claim that she believes she wove death into her Christmas tree when she chose purple as a color to decorate with? How is this substantially different from Patsy's rationalizations for JonBenet's death that JonBenet is in a better place and that her little, six-year-old daughter had fulfilled her mission on earth?

The fact is that not only is there no substantial difference, it is so similar that it made me gasp when I heard the story. Let's not forget that she credited only God for her initial cancer remission and not the medical treatment and the doctors that are in fact, responsible IMO

Bluecrab,

You are right of course. Thanks for the support. Anyone remember the Spanish Inquisition?

 

[Kim Ii]

This is a topic where I wholeheartedly agree. I shy away from topics dealing with religion in general as my viewpoints are appreciated by few to none, especially on the forums.

More people have died in the name of God and religion than for any other reason on earth.

For this reason, I do not condone, nor believe in "organized" religion. Religion is in the heart. God is everywhere (for those who choose to believe in God) and there is no need to go to a particular building to prove your faith.

As far as your oxymoron of "pillars of the community" and "devoutly religious", I couldn't agree more!

I too, read the papers.

Barbara,

I don't normally post on this subject, but I had to reply to this one. I totally agree with you. Your sentiments remind me of a post written by one La Contessa, who used to post with relish on this forum. She said essentially the same thing, and I couldn't agree more. JMO, of course...

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...The whole concept is rooted in the stupidity of mankind - and therefore it's a vicious circle that will never end.

IMO

Right, Shylock.

And let me add that the more value we place on our various Gods, the less value we place on human beings. We make ourselves, somehow, lesser beings beacause we are terrified that we might be, in reality, all alone. We don't want to face our obligations as the only thinking beings out there with free will and the ability to do good and evil. So, we create our Gods as needed.

The world would be a much better place, in my opinion, if we had more faith in humankind than faith in supernatural Gods. We would have to see that it really is our fault.

Ok, now I will climb off of my soap box...

 

[Ivy]

Excellent post, WolfmarsGirl. I totally agree and couldn't have said it better.

imo

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Here is the latest on the case:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA69M9SISD.html

"...Deanna Laney said she resisted at first, but the signs kept coming. The baby came to her with a rock, and later in the day squeezed a frog, and she believed God was suggesting that she should either stab, stone or strangle her children..."

Well, well, well. How is this substantially different from Patsy claiming that she saw JonBenet dead in a coffin, a sight which distressed her on Christmas Eve?...

The claim about seeing JBR in a coffin was related to the My Twinn doll in its box.

Let me also remind all of you about a little-known piece of info regarding the My Twinn dolls:

The dolls came with tissue paper over their heads to prevent damage to the face during transit. Each doll was packaged with a ribbon tied around its neck in order to keep the tissue paper in place...

All of this not unlike Laney seeing the child with a rock and deciding to stone him. The doll was strangled, so was it a 'sign' to strangle JBR??

Does this seem to be making more sense to anyone but me???

 

[Barbara]

Right, Shylock.

And let me add that the more value we place on our various Gods, the less value we place on human beings. We make ourselves, somehow, lesser beings beacause we are terrified that we might be, in reality, all alone. We don't want to face our obligations as the only thinking beings out there with free will and the ability to do good and evil. So, we create our Gods as needed.

The world would be a much better place, in my opinion, if we had more faith in humankind than faith in supernatural Gods. We would have to see that it really is our fault.

Ok, now I will climb off of my soap box...

Excellent Shylock,

Here's a poser:

Patsy credited God for her remission from stage 4 cancer rather than the doctors. If the doctors had somehow botched things, do any of you think that she would also hold "God" responsible, or do you think she would have gotten herself a high powered malpractice attorney?

Perhaps some of our "religious" posters could help me to understand how only God is credited for the good things that happen to us and yet, don't hesitate to leave God out of it when they have a chance to make a few bucks with a lawyer? For someone who is that spiritual and attributes all things to God's will, wouldn't you think Patsy might just have prayed for the souls of those nasty tabloids rather than go for Lin Wood who obviously has NO soul?

 

[BrotherMoon]

The claim about seeing JBR in a coffin was related to the My Twinn doll in its box.

Let me also remind all of you about a little-known piece of info regarding the My Twinn dolls:

The dolls came with tissue paper over their heads to prevent damage to the face during transit. Each doll was packaged with a ribbon tied around its neck in order to keep the tissue paper in place...

All of this not unlike Laney seeing the child with a rock and deciding to stone him. The doll was strangled, so was it a 'sign' to strangle JBR??

Does this seem to be making more sense to anyone but me???

Thanks again for these tidbits WmG, yes these synchronicities have to be considered, the stars aligned for Patsy.

And I've been around for years posting sense. To me this type of thread is the sine qua non of discussions about the Ramsey case. The truth is within.

 

[tipper]

Excellent Shylock,

Here's a poser:

Patsy credited God for her remission from stage 4 cancer rather than the doctors. If the doctors had somehow botched things, do any of you think that she would also hold "God" responsible, or do you think she would have gotten herself a high powered malpractice attorney?
...

I think the answer can be found in the fact the Ramseys didn't go after the various doctors who failed to diagnose her cancer early on when her symptoms should have set off some alarms. Ascites, backache etc. with no obvious cause.

If the Drs. had 'botched' things then they would have, in fact, committed malpractice and should have been sued. But had the treatment not worked on her and she simply died from Stage 4 ovarian cancer there would be no case to bring.