Felony Murder Vs Premeditated Murder

[impatientredhead]

I have no problem with 'Knight' controlling the possible addition of a felony murder or, perhaps, a felony manslughter charge prior to the jury being instructed on the charges. I do still hold that the evidence that we know of would not permit the simultaneous existence of both a premeditated murder charge and a felony murder charge in this case.

As regards the current availability in Florida of the death penalty for a felony murder conviction, my problem remains that I cannot find a 2009 Florida statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder. Though I saw what Mr. Hornsby posted and might normally defer to his state knowledge out of courtesy, I remain in search of clear authority that makes the death penalty currently available.

Mr. Hornsby, I plead for your citation?



(chuckle)

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

2009 statutes, official site....

I personally would go with "I think the way Florida handles their capital murder cases is a travesty and inherently unfair to the defendant" rather than sticking with they can't pursue premeditated and felony.

They can, they do, and the jury does not have to agree as long as they all think she killed her. Of course aggravated manslaughter falls under the lesser charges in this case so technically you could see that come back, but I would hold my breath personally.

 

[marspiter]

I have no problem with 'Knight' controlling the possible addition of a felony murder or, perhaps, a felony manslughter charge prior to the jury being instructed on the charges. I do still hold that the evidence that we know of would not permit the simultaneous existence of both a premeditated murder charge and a felony murder charge in this case.

As regards the current availability in Florida of the death penalty for a felony murder conviction, my problem remains that I cannot find a 2009 Florida statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder. Though I saw what Mr. Hornsby posted and might normally defer to his state knowledge out of courtesy, I remain in search of clear authority that makes the death penalty currently available.

Mr. Hornsby, I plead for your citation?

(chuckle)

It's pretty much right there on the Florida Supreme Court website Wudge. The Florida Supreme Court cites FL Statute 782.04 (1) for felony murder. So like JBean even said the penalties would have to be the same.

Citation after citation has been given to you. A Florida attorney who is an analyst for news shows has agreed. One that I might add is a defense attorney and supports the idea that Casey is not guilty of murder 1.

Now your not trying to argue a point, your just not wanting to admit that your "fact" was wrong.

So like you have done with others. Your wrong, the correct factual information is here for other posters to see.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

It's pretty much right there on the Florida Supreme Court website Wudge. The Florida Supreme Court cites FL Statute 782.04 (1) for felony murder. So like JBean even said the penalties would have to be the same.

Citation after citation has been given to you. A Florida attorney who is an analyst for news shows has agreed. One that I might add is a defense attorney and supports the idea that Casey is not guilty of murder 1.

Now your not trying to argue a point, your just not wanting to admit that your "fact" was wrong.

So like you have done with others. Your wrong, the correct factual information is here for other posters to see.

HTH

Silly me for thinking that a trial attorney -- President of the Central Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, no less -- would want to have a clear statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder in Florida.

Still, I'll wait.

 

[impatientredhead]

Silly me for thinking that a trial attorney -- President of the Central Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, no less -- would want to have a clear statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder in Florida.

Still, I'll wait.

[SIZE=-1]782.04 Murder.-- [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1), [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]b. Arson, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]c. Sexual battery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]d. Robbery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]e. Burglary, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]f. Kidnapping, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]g. Escape, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]h. Aggravated child abuse, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]j. Aircraft piracy, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]l. Carjacking, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]m. Home-invasion robbery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]n. Aggravated stalking, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]o. Murder of another human being, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]775.082 Penalties; applicability of sentencing structures; mandatory minimum sentences for certain reoffenders previously released from prison.--
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1) A person who has been convicted of a capital felony shall be punished by death if the proceeding held to determine sentence according to the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 results in findings by the court that such person shall be punished by death, otherwise such person shall be punished by life imprisonment and shall be ineligible for parole. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

 

[Tulessa]

[SIZE=-1]782.04 Murder.-- [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1), [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]b. Arson, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]c. Sexual battery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]d. Robbery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]e. Burglary, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]f. Kidnapping, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]g. Escape, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]h. Aggravated child abuse, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]j. Aircraft piracy, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]l. Carjacking, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]m. Home-invasion robbery, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]n. Aggravated stalking, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]o. Murder of another human being, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]775.082 Penalties; applicability of sentencing structures; mandatory minimum sentences for certain reoffenders previously released from prison.--
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1) A person who has been convicted of a capital felony shall be punished by death if the proceeding held to determine sentence according to the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 results in findings by the court that such person shall be punished by death, otherwise such person shall be punished by life imprisonment and shall be ineligible for parole. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

Thank you!:banghead:

 

[AZlawyer]

Silly me for thinking that a trial attorney -- President of the Central Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, no less -- would want to have a clear statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder in Florida.

Still, I'll wait.

I know this has already been posted in this thread about 3 times, but:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

782.04(1)(a)(2)(h): "The unlawful killing of a human being...[w]hen committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any...[a]ggravated child abuse [or other listed felony]...is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082."

775.082(1): "A person who has been convicted of a capital felony shall be punished by death if the proceeding held to determine sentence according to the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 results in findings by the court that such person shall be punished by death, otherwise such person shall be punished by life imprisonment and shall be ineligible for parole."

ETA: Sorry for the cross-post, impatientredhead. O/T, I'm an impatient redhead too.

 

[marspiter]

Silly me for thinking that a trial attorney -- President of the Central Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, no less -- would want to have a clear statute that provides for the death penalty for felony murder in Florida.

Still, I'll wait.

Well since more then adequate citation has been given to you on this topic proving that it is indeed available would you care to cite a reliable source that says otherwise? I have a feeling that citation can't be located.

I was under the assumption that any information that we provide as fact needs to be cited or at the very least is recommended. This is to benefit this forum and the over all knowledge base available to it's posters. This way we all have the correct information and can make well informed arguments.

I stand by the fact that the correct and factual information is here for others, and that your "position" is wrong. Unless or until citation of a reliable source can prove otherwise.

Water shall we say is indeed wet.

 

[Wudge]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

2009 statutes, official site....

I personally would go with "I think the way Florida handles their capital murder cases is a travesty and inherently unfair to the defendant" rather than sticking with they can't pursue premeditated and felony.

They can, they do, and the jury does not have to agree as long as they all think she killed her. Of course aggravated manslaughter falls under the lesser charges in this case so technically you could see that come back, but I would hold my breath personally.

It's my holding that the evidence we know of in this case does not support simultaneous charges of both felony murder and premeditated murder. The fact that prosecutors have not so charged gives some evidence to this, indeed, being true.

 

[Wudge]

Well since more then adequate citation has been given to you on this topic proving that it is indeed available would you care to cite a reliable source that says otherwise? I have a feeling that citation can't be located.

I was under the assumption that any information that we provide as fact needs to be cited or at the very least is recommended. This is to benefit this forum and the over all knowledge base available to it's posters. This way we all have the correct information and can make well informed arguments.

I stand by the fact that the correct and factual information is here for others, and that your "position" is wrong. Unless or until citation of a reliable source can prove otherwise.

Water shall we say is indeed wet.

As you know, I have never enjoyed the wording in 782.04. I have no problem should I be wrong.

 

[Themis]

<============ Recovering from the flu.

Sitting out this round of discussion. We've been through all of this before a few months ago. Same legal citations then to show no amendment to the charges was needed. Same result. When legal citations were requested -- there weren't any.

opcorn:

 

[Blaise]

I don't know to what extent or when prosecutors will lay out their theory to the jury -- I suspect we will first hear it in their rebuttal closing argument. However, if they were to claim that premeditation was formed in an instant (or close to an instant), what evidence in the public domain would prove this beyond a reasonable doubt?

I love your posts, Wudge.

If the State presents the case that Caylee suffocated due to the duct tape, Casey would have had to:

* Get up and physically go and get the tape;
* Tear off strips of tape;
* Physically affix it to Caylee;
* Wait until Caylee died.

I don't think you could do that in less than five minutes. Is that five minutes enough for premeditation.

As for the disposal, I think that the state could simply say:

"No one ever said we're dealing with a smart person."
OR
"She thought so highly of herself that she could never imagine that sweet little white girl Casey would be blamed."

Blaise

 

[Wudge]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

2009 statutes, official site....

I personally would go with "I think the way Florida handles their capital murder cases is a travesty and inherently unfair to the defendant" rather than sticking with they can't pursue premeditated and felony.

They can, they do, and the jury does not have to agree as long as they all think she killed her. Of course aggravated manslaughter falls under the lesser charges in this case so technically you could see that come back, but I would hold my breath personally.

It's my holding that the evidence we know of in this case does not support simultaneous charges of both felony murder and premeditated murder. The fact that prosecutors have not so charged gives some evidence to this, indeed, being true.

I agree that 782.04 provides for the death penalty for a person who commits a murder defined by this statute; i.e., it provides for the death penalty for a 'capital felony'. However, 'felony murder' more generally relates to a death that occurs in the commision of any felony, not just felonies defined by statute.

HTH

 

[marspiter]

As you know, I have never enjoyed the wording in 782.04. I have no problem should I be wrong.

So are you stating that your assumption that the DP is not available is based on your opinion and that you have no citation to prove your position? It's a pretty simple answer.

It's either available or it's not, your opinion of the wording is just that. Your opinion and not a fact. Noting once again not one single reliable citation source.

The fact is it is available based on the citation of the Dept of Justice statistics, Florida Statute, Florida Supreme Court citation, Attorney Statement, ect, ect.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

So are you stating that your assumption that the DP is not available is based on your opinion and that you have no citation to prove your position? It's a pretty simple answer.

It's either available or it's not, your opinion of the wording is just that. Your opinion and not a fact. Noting once again not one single reliable citation source.

The fact is it is available based on the citation of the Dept of Justice statistics, Florida Statute, Florida Supreme Court citation, Attorney Statement, ect, ect.

HTH

I don't hold Florida's death penalty for a 'capital felony' (death penalty for a particular felony defined by statute) to equal the availability of the death penalty for a killing that results from the commission of any felony, which is typically known as 'felony murder'.

 

[Wudge]

I love your posts, Wudge.

If the State presents the case that Caylee suffocated due to the duct tape, Casey would have had to:

* Get up and physically go and get the tape;
* Tear off strips of tape;
* Physically affix it to Caylee;
* Wait until Caylee died.

I don't think you could do that in less than five minutes. Is that five minutes enough for premeditation.

As for the disposal, I think that the state could simply say:

"No one ever said we're dealing with a smart person."
OR
"She thought so highly of herself that she could never imagine that sweet little white girl Casey would be blamed."

Blaise

(Snappy salute)

I also believe that Casey would have had to hold Caylee down so as to prevent her from tearing off the duct tape. If Casey desired to commit a premediated murder in that fashion (suffocation), she could have simply drowned Caylee in a swimming pool and claimed that she died accidentally.

 

[Themis]

Felony murder isn't applied to "any" felony. It is usually the ones in Florida's statutory list. The states may vary a little, but probably not much.

Anyway, they would be "equal" because "capital felony" and "availability of the death penalty for 'felony murder'" is the same. They are all statutory in nature, the penalty for a "capital" crime and "availability of the death penalty" are exactly the same -- death. Dead is dead. No difference that I can see. None.

 

[marspiter]

I don't hold Florida's death penalty for a 'capital felony' (death penalty for a particular felony defined by statute) to equal the availability of the death penalty for a killing that results from the commission of any felony, which is typically known as 'felony murder'.

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that Florida doesn't just have a blanket Felony Murder rule as the one from say a wikipedia definition, but has different levels of felony murder to coincide with the levels of murder. Hence 1st degree Felony murder being attached by the Supreme Court of Florida to 782.04 (1)

 

[Wudge]

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that Florida doesn't just have a blanket Felony Murder rule as the one from say a wikipedia definition, but has different levels of felony murder to coincide with the levels of murder. Hence 1st degree Felony murder being attached by the Supreme Court of Florida to 782.04 (1)

As I have read it and still read it, the death penalty is only available when a death results from the commision of certain felonies as defined by statute (capital felonies in 782.04), not all felonies (felony murder).

 

[JSR]

(Snappy salute)

I also believe that Casey would have had to hold Caylee down so as to prevent her from tearing off the duct tape. If Casey desired to commit a premediated murder in that fashion (suffocation), she could have simply drowned Caylee in a swimming pool and claimed that she died accidentally.

But what you would do and what Casey would do are COMPLETELY different things. Casey has never dealt with the consequences of her actions, her parents made sure of it. I think she did plan to murder her daughter but just didn't think about any of the particulars about what to do after she was dead. She just thought about how her life would be bella vita once she was ....

 

[JBean]

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that Florida doesn't just have a blanket Felony Murder rule as the one from say a wikipedia definition, but has different levels of felony murder to coincide with the levels of murder. Hence 1st degree Felony murder being attached by the Supreme Court of Florida to 782.04 (1)

As an aside, it is important to point out that ,as I understand it,the SA still needs to request that FM be considered with the jury instructions. IOW, it is not automagically considered as an LIO might be.
Is that correct?