Felony Murder Vs Premeditated Murder

[marspiter]

That has indeed been the argument. You just made it again, which is: false. Please take special note that you equate felony murder to capital felony. They are not the same.

HTH

False based on what information? Many sources have been cited proving this to be true. If you would like to state as a fact that this information is false please provide citation for such a claim.

 

[BeanE]

There are a few good moments that we have seen and read between KC and CA that can be helpful, maybe to either side:

-Deb & RichGrund stating that KC did not seem to like her parents, said she did not want to be like her mother
-JG stating that sometimes she wanted to be just like her mother, other times she hated her mother
-JG stating that CA tore KC a new one the night KC and JG were on the bed together, to the point where JG had to later come to KC's defense
-LA's statements to LE regarding the degrading relationship between mother and daughter, and the snippy comments they would exchange regarding events at Caylee's birth
-AD's recollection that CA would call KC constantly while she was out
-CA was moving away and KC would get the house

-(This one is my purest speculation) KC's resent at not being able to commit infanticide as possibly planned. Some studies link concealed/denied pregnancies with infanticide. Not that this would be brought up at trial, just something the jury could ponder after hearing RickP.

KC could not wait to get outside those four walls she always felt stuck in-mom was constantly on her about it. KC started ignoring CA's phone calls when she was with TL. I believe CA called KC several times on June 15th and KC let it go to VM...a few hours later, she calls mom to say she was on the way home.

-CA's (recorded) threat on July 16th to take custody of Caylee
-KC's spiteful biatch comment

I think the dynamics of the series of incidents with the cancelled jail visits belongs in here too. KC cancelled visits with Lee and Cindy. Cindy retaliated by cancelling one or more visits. In an interview about it, I'll never forget it, Cindy said, with a huge smile on her face, that they "were just having a little tit for tat".

It was bizarre, to me, because her words and demeanor said that to Cindy, this hostility and spiteful behavior was the norm in dynamics for her and KC. In fact, she said it so matter-of-factly with that coy smile that it struck me that she thought this was normal behavior for any family, and it was so horribly immature, mean, spiteful, and non-productive.

For me, this was the moment I knew why KC had killed Caylee. Spite, revenge, the ultimate tit-for-tat game, in which KC made a move to ensure she would win.

MOO

BeanE

ETA: I believe this long term dynamic grated constantly on KC for years, and is at the crux of, at least, the psychology behind the premeditation.

 

[Wudge]

Once again I don't think your actually reading the citations provided to you on this topic. Notice the bolded area. It is stated as "Felony Murder" of the first degree. It is as you can see by the Florida Supreme Court citation here linked to 782.04 (1)

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#


7.3 FELONY MURDER — FIRST DEGREE
§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla.Stat.

To prove the crime of First Degree Felony Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

Give 2a, 2b, or 2c as applicable.
2. a. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant) was engaged in the commission of (crime alleged).]

b. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant) was attempting to commit (crime alleged).]

c. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant), or an accomplice, was escaping from the immediate scene of (crime alleged).]

Give 3a if defendant actual perpetrator.
3. a. [(Defendant) was the person who actually killed (victim).]

Give 3b if defendant not actual perpetrator.
b. [(Victim) was killed by a person other than (defendant); but both (defendant) and the person who killed (victim) were principals in the commission of (crime alleged).]

In order to convict of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

1. Define the crime alleged. If Burglary, also define crime that was the object of burglary.

2. If 2b above is given, also define "attempt" (see 5.1).

3. If 3b is given, immediately give principal instruction (3.5(a)).

4. Since the statute does not require its proof, it is not necessary to define "premeditation."

HTH

Does the death penalty apply in Florida to unlawful killings that result from an act of assault?

 

[marspiter]

Does the death penalty apply in Florida to unlawful killings that result from an act of assault?

Please refer to the list of felonies listed under 782.04(1). Once again the citation is right here on the forum for you to read. In fact the list is just up a couple posts on this thread.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

False based on what information? Many sources have been cited proving this to be true. If you would like to state as a fact that this information is false please provide citation for such a claim.

I have only seen a reference to 782.04, which provides the death penalty only for capital felonies as enumerated, but not for deaths that result from non-enumerated felonies. Where is that statute?

 

[marspiter]

Also with this case we are specifically talking about the charge of aggravated child abuse. Which is listed under 782.04(1). It was bolded in the list a couple of posts ago.

 

[Wudge]

Please refer to the list of felonies listed under 782.04(1). Once again the citation is right here on the forum for you to read. In fact the list is just up a couple posts on this thread.

HTH

You will not find assualt in that list. As such, an act of felonius assault that causes the unintended death of a person or persons in Florida is not punishable by death.

Was the act a capital felony? No. Did the act result in a felony murder? Yes. Is it punishable by death? No.

HTH

HTH

 

[marspiter]

I know this has already been posted in this thread about 3 times, but:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

782.04(1)(a)(2)(h): "The unlawful killing of a human being...[w]hen committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any...[a]ggravated child abuse [or other listed felony]...is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082."

775.082(1): "A person who has been convicted of a capital felony shall be punished by death if the proceeding held to determine sentence according to the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 results in findings by the court that such person shall be punished by death, otherwise such person shall be punished by life imprisonment and shall be ineligible for parole."

ETA: Sorry for the cross-post, impatientredhead. O/T, I'm an impatient redhead too.

Wudge this is another post you may not have seen or skipped. You have stated once you don't see all posts.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

Also with this case we are specifically talking about the charge of aggravated child abuse. Which is listed under 782.04(1). It was bolded in the list a couple of posts ago.

I have certainly not been talking specifically about aggravated child abuse under 782.04. I have have been talking about felony murder in Florida, not a specific capital felony.

 

[marspiter]

You will not find assualt in that list. As such, an act of felonius assault that causes the unintended death of a person or persons in Florida is not punishable by death.

Was the act a capital felony? No. Did the act result in a felony murder? Yes. Is it punishable by death? No.

HTH

HTH

I your words please quote me. Never once did I ever mention assault. I asked you to refer to the list of felonies under 782.04(1). Was assault listed under 782.04(1)? Then that's your answer.

For this case we are specifically talking about aggravated child abuse which is listed under 782.04(1).

HTH

 

[Wudge]

Wudge this is another post you may not have seen or skipped. You have stated once you don't see all posts.

HTH

If you have a point to make from that post, make it.

 

[MomofBoys]

Found it.

 

[Wudge]

I your words please quote me. Never once did I ever mention assault. I asked you to refer to the list of felonies under 782.04(1). Was assault listed under 782.04(1)? Then that's your answer.

For this case we are specifically talking about aggravated child abuse which is listed under 782.04(1).

HTH

I never said you used assault. I used it to prove my point, which is that assault is not a capital felony in 782.04. However, a death resulting from assault is eligible for a felony murder charge, but it is not punishable by death.

HTH

 

[marspiter]

I have certainly not been talking specifically about aggravated child abuse under 782.04. I have have been talking about felony murder in Florida, not a specific capital felony.

Well Florida has levels of Felony Murder. First Degree Felony murder is what this discussion has been talking about because that is what is pertinent to this case. The list of felonies that fall under 1st degree felony murder are thus (listed earlier), and can be punishable by the death penalty. That has been the discussion.

Assualt by btw would be Second Degree Felony Murder (remember Florida has levels of Felony murder). The discussion however was never about second degree felony murder. It has always been that the death penalty was available for felony murder of the first degree. Specifically in regards to aggravated child abuse because that is what is pertinent to this case.

 

[marspiter]

No you have argued that the DP is not available for felony murder. You have argued that as a matter of fact and with out citation I might add.

However as you can see in Florida they have levels of felony murder. The level of felony murder in the first degree has the death penalty available for Florida. I believe this has been pretty clear with the citations and discussion. So your statement that the DP is not available is incorrect. Unless you have citation to prove otherwise. Which you don't because the law has been cited.

 

[Wudge]

Well Florida has levels of Felony Murder. First Degree Felony murder is what this discussion has been talking about because that is what is pertinent to this case. The list of felonies that fall under 1st degree felony murder are thus (listed earlier), and can be punishable by the death penalty. That has been the discussion.

Assualt by btw would be Second Degree Felony Murder (remember Florida has levels of Felony murder). The discussion however was never about second degree felony murder. It has always been that the death penalty was available for felony murder of the first degree. Specifically in regards to aggravated child abuse because that is what is pertinent to this case.

My point has been and remains that the death penalty is available in Florida only for enumerated felonies; i.e., a particular 'capital felony' as defined by statute. This is in opposition to deaths that arise from all felonies which is classically referred to as 'felony murder', not 'capital felony'.

HTH

HTH

 

[marspiter]

My point has been and remains that the death penalty is available in Florida only for enumerated felonies; i.e., a particular 'capital felony' as defined by statute. This is in opposition to deaths that arise from all felonies which is classically referred to as 'felony murder', not 'capital felony'.

HTH

HTH

Florida cites it as "Felony Murder" of the first degree.

 

[Wudge]

No you have argued that the DP is not available for felony murder. You have argued that as a matter of fact and with out citation I might add.

However as you can see in Florida they have levels of felony murder. The level of felony murder in the first degree has the death penalty available for Florida. I believe this has been pretty clear with the citations and discussion. So your statement that the DP is not available is incorrect. Unless you have citation to prove otherwise. Which you don't because the law has been cited.

I don't hold a 'capital felony' -- statute defined death penalty available for only specific felonies -- to be equal to 'felony murder', as I have consistently made clear.

 

[marspiter]

So Wudge your in agreement then that Florida has the DP available for Felony Murder of the first degree?

 

[JBean]

You guys just stop going around about this issue.
Debate is fine, beating a dead horse is tiresome and old.

The conversation has long stopped being constructive and everyone just needs to agree to disagree because this constantly engaging each other is really really old.

I am going to close this thread and I will reopen later if people would like to pick up the debate in a constructive way.