Fifth Person In the House?

[camillllla]

Hi Camillllla.

Yes. Even John Ramsey and Lou Smit recognize the contraption on JonBenet's neck as a sexual device.

JMO

Ok, just checking!!

c

 

[Britt]

It's often theorized that the strip of tape was "used" tape that came from the back of a painting in the Rs' house, or that it had been lying loose in Patsy's paint tote...

A poster on another forum has theorized (sorry, I forget which forum and which poster.... please, poster, if you're here, can you elaborate?....) that the piece of black duct tape, as well as the dark unidentified fibers found on the exterior of JB's shirt, around her crotch/thigh area and elsewhere(?), may have come from JB's American Girl Molly doll.

The poster posted photos of the doll (from ebay ads) showing the tape on the doll's back (I think) and the doll's clothing that could have matched the fibers.

The poster said that shortly after the murder a NEW Molly doll was delivered to John Ramsey's office, which was strange of course because why would a dead child need a new doll?

Does anyone know anything about this? Obviously, if the Ramseys bought a new doll, it would appear they were attempting some sort of "evidence" replacement to avoid incriminating themselves in case investigators made a connection between JB's doll and the tape/fibers. The police had the duct tape used on JB. And perhaps the Ramseys had discarded/hidden some of the doll's clothing that had left fibers at the crime scene.

So..... example: they send Pam (an unwitting conspirator) in to retrieve the doll, then switch out the doll with the new one, complete with duct tape and clothing.

 

[camillllla]

Camillllla, as far as I know, the actual lab reports on the fibers haven't been released to the public. Yes, it would be nice to know if the fibers were examined using mass spectrometry. Apparently they weren't, or we'd probably have heard more than that the fibers were "consistent with" fibers from John and Patsy's clothing.

I don't know if Burke's knife blade was examined for stickiness, but investigators thought the tape appeared to have been torn from the roll istead of cut. Btw, the knife was discovered on a countertop just down the corridor from where JonBenet's body was found.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml

It's often theorized that the strip of tape was "used" tape that came from the back of a painting in the Rs' house, or that it had been lying loose in Patsy's paint tote, but I don't recall hearing anything official about whether it was fresh from the roll, or used. To me, the most revealing thing about the tape is that it was obviously placed over JonBenet's mouth after she was dead, which means it was part of the staging. It was too small to have kept her quiet. She could have easily removed it by working her mouth.

imo

Thanks again Ivy, its so much easier catching up when nice people are there to help. Its such a huge case, so many details and characters, one could go on forever studying and discussing it.

I got sidetracked with the Routier case, thats why I was gone so long. That is also an interesting case, seems simple in the beginning, but it is also complex. Anyhow, not as complex as this case.

I totally agree with you that the most important factor is that the tape was put on JB after she was dead or atleast unconscious. To me the mystery is no longer WHO murdered JB, its clear that someone in the family did it, but more WHY and what happened that night, and who is responsable for what.
I think its vital to try to separate the staging from the 'real' injuries and evidence.

Just a few more comments on the duct tape
(as I like to dissect one thing at the time and to the bone ) :

I was under the impression that it was silver coloured and not black like some say.

I thought it was quite difficult to rip duct-tape. I havent used that kind of tape for a while but remember vaguely that I had to cut it since it has those long threads along the sticky side. If one had a knife or pair of scissors handy I think one would prefer using them. Atleast a woman might want to cut, not rip.
We know that the stager had a knife, so if its true that the strip was ripped it may support the theory that it was an old bit. Then again, if it was old, Id expect there to be some fingerprints on it and a lot of different fibers. Hm, maybe there were fingerprints on it, but JBs facial skin oils destroyed them?

We should also keep in mind that the stager had the possibility to cut JB but chose not to.

I wonder why that knife was used, it suggests that the person who needed the knife was on the second floor near JBs room, not in the basement since it would be easier to just take one from the kitchen.
And I wonder why the knife was not put back in its place or hidden (if there were other items hidden like roll of tape and more cord). And why was it left on that counter?...
Im starting to think that maybe the knife was in the basement those days before the crime, not upstairs in the cupboard. That maybe Burke had found it and kept it down there.
...Actually, we dont even know for sure that the Burke knife is connected to the crime. Maybe its just another red herring!

lots of thoughts and questions here, Im basically just rambeling out loud.

c

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Regarding the duct tape and the Molly doll:

The Tape:

The American Girl dolls do not come with their own duct tape. On the back of the neck of each doll, there are two five-inch cords that attach the head to the rest of the body. The cords are bothersome, especially to little girls who try to dress the dolls and who try to brush the doll's hair.

I recently wrote to American Girl about the annoying cords on the neck. I was expecting to get a 'duct tape' answer. Instead, they told me to teach my daughter to tuck the cords into the back of the doll's clothing. This tip, obviously, does not work, since the cords get in the way of dressing the doll in the first place...

So, the rumor is that, once upon a time, American Girl used to instruct parents to apply a small piece of duct tape to the back of the doll, over the hanging cords. This tape was supposed to hold down the cord, out of sight and away from being tangled in the doll's hair.

This is not the advice American Girl gives out now regarding the cords. (If anyone wants to see their response to me about the cord, I will post it.)

Regardless, it seems like the tape would be a logical solution.

The Molly doll is an AG doll that comes dressed in a blue wool outfit. I am not sure if JBR had a 'Molly.' I do know that she had a 'Samantha.' ( I am not certain of the source for the Samantha, but if anyone really needs it, I am sure it could be found...maybe PMPT?)

I think Pam retrieved more than one AG doll from the home...But which two (or more) dolls?

The dolls have a body that looks similar to a heavy-knit, skin-toned tights. The dolls certainly shed light brown-to-beige fibers when tape is ripped away from their skin. I believe this color fiber was found somewhere on JBR. I think the LE questioned John about work gloves, in order to account for the light-brown fibers.

Well, as my kid would say, "Duh!"

The American Girl scenario is not mine, but I too read this theory somewhere. I think ACR had a letter from an employee of American Girl that started this whole thought process.

Now, about the source for the duct tape, how about this?:

JBR played extensively with Daphne White. The Whites became frustrated and angry with the Ramseys close to the start of the investigation. There is no doubt that the Whites now think the Ramseys are guilty.

I think JBR could have been playing at the White's with Daphne and the girls had their respective AG dolls.

JBR could have complained about the cords on her doll. Priscilla could have explained to Patsy that she used a piece of duct tape on Daphne's doll. Then, Priscilla might have ripped off a piece of duct tape belonging to a roll at the White's house and placed it on JBR's doll.

After the murder, Patsy might have pleaded to Priscilla to get rid of the rest of the White's roll of duct tape. Priscilla consulted Fleet. Fleet confronted John. John, offended, argued with Fleet. At which time, the White's realized that they were in over their heads.

Perhaps Priscilla had already gotten rid of the duct tape at Patsy's request. So, the Whites were involved in tampering with the evidence. Maybe this is why the Whites have never stated, publicly in so many words, exactly what their opinion is about this murder.

Maybe LE has the White's testimony about the duct tape. Or, is that just one witness' word against another?

You can use the same scenario with the Fernies (although they didn't have a little girl, did they?). Didn't they 'turn against' the Ramseys too?

Makes you wonder why all of the 'close friends' think they are guilty. They certainly know a heap more about this case than we do...

The Cord:

I said this before, but, of course, I will say it again, lol...

I think the cord around JBR's body could have come from the inside of a beaded jump rope.

I know JBR received a 'jewelry making kit' for Christmas...Did it come with a cord?

I think it was paper beads that JBR was making. There used to be a kit for sale that rolled the beads on some type of contraption. The kids just had to glue them and wait for them to dry.

I remember this kit being on the market because I was a paper-jewelry freak when I was in JR high, lol. I was an adult, however, when I saw the kits...Maybe someone else can remember.

I can't find these kits anywhere now. I do wonder if they came with a length of cord, like my daughter's regular jewelry kits do? The kits wolfkid has come with plastic, safe cord now.

I don't know what they came with in 1996...My oldest niece was not into jewelry at that age (she's 15 now), so I would not have actually purchased anything like that at the time.

Now, back to the jump rope. My daughter has one beaded jump rope. Inside, there is a nylon cord that closely resembles the cord on JBR.

These beaded jump ropes also come in do-it-yourself kits:

http://www.skookum.org/jumpropes/schoolkit.html

Off the shelf, the standard length that children's jump ropes come in is either 6' or 7'. (The link above is not the jump rope we have. Ours is from Wal-Mart .)

Both ends of this cord were finished on my daughter's jump rope. However, we cut away a bit of the cord, and put the extra beads away, in order to make the rope the right length for wolfkid.

If JBR had a beaded jump rope, chances are the core of the rope looked very much like the cord that was found on her body...Could it have been already cut for JBR to jump better, and hence, there would be no remaining cord in the house after the crime???

I don't know. Perhaps we can answer that by finding out if the cord manufacturer might have sold any lengths of cord to a company that made jump ropes?

Maybe I will look into it...but now, I am tired.




:twocents:

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Here is another link to the jump rope people

http://www.skookum.org/jumpropes/order_retail.html

Look at the entry for "Rainbow beaded jump rope kit," or something along those lines. You can see the cord in the picture. It is not a close-up shot, so it is difficult to see. Maybe I will just order one, heck...

By the way, my heart almost fell out my mouth when I saw the entry further down on the page I linked that read, "Beaver tooth..."! For a minute, I thought there might be a source for the Beaver hair!!

I am WAY too tired...

 

[BlueCrab]

Wolfmarsgirl,

Your suggested scenarios about the sources of the tape and the rope are creative and sure make me think.

Your theories are possible, but please remember the black duct tape had been identified as Shurtape brand, manufactured in N.C., and was sold locally at McGuckin's Hardware Store in Boulder. Therefore, the most LIKELY source of the short piece of tape found on JonBenet would be that it was cut or torn directly from a roll of tape bought at McGuckin's and not "imported" on a doll.

The white cord was identified as Stansport brand flat nylon white cord distributed by Stansport in California and sold in 50' and 100' packages from the camping aisle at McGuckin's Hardware in Boulder. Therefore, the source was more likely to be from cord bought at McGuckin's than from cord on a jump rope.

JMO

 

[Toth]

Given the short time between manufacture and sale of the tape, it is mrerely possible that it was bought in Boulder, but by no means certain or even likely.

There are several knives involved but the one found in the laundry room counter was more a kitchen knife than some sort of personal knife.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Wolfmarsgirl,

Your suggested scenarios about the sources of the tape and the rope are creative and sure make me think.

Your theories are possible, but please remember the black duct tape had been identified as Shurtape brand, manufactured in N.C., and was sold locally at McGuckin's Hardware Store in Boulder. Therefore, the most LIKELY source of the short piece of tape found on JonBenet would be that it was cut or torn directly from a roll of tape bought at McGuckin's and not "imported" on a doll.

The white cord was identified as Stansport brand flat nylon white cord distributed by Stansport in California and sold in 50' and 100' packages from the camping aisle at McGuckin's Hardware in Boulder. Therefore, the source was more likely to be from cord bought at McGuckin's than from cord on a jump rope.

JMO

BC, I am not saying that the tape was brought in already on a doll. (And this point is very important because most posters don't quite understand the 'tape on the doll concept.') The American girl dolls do not come with tape. There is no duct tape on the American Girl packaging.

I am suggesting that a consumer, maybe the Whites, or the Ramseys, purchased a roll of duct tape.

Later, a piece of the tape was cut by the consumer to put on the back of the doll.

Is there any way to find out if the cord could have been sold to another manufacturer, in a different package - maybe in bulk - so that the second manufacturer could mass-produce items like jump ropes? Or, does Stansport only sell this type of cord in small rolls for distribution to private consumers?

Like I said before, I will try to check into this.

Thanks for your response, BC

 

[sissi]

Blue Crab..Your theories are possible, but please remember the black duct tape had been identified as Shurtape brand, manufactured in N.C., and was sold locally at McGuckin's Hardware Store in Boulder

The tape was identified as you say,however it was not identified by thread count or adhesive type to the one the photographer (appearance/manufacturer the same) bought at McGuckins. This tape was NOT sourced at the Boulder store. Steve was very upset about this in his book,he was certain it could be,and went as far as to send the tapes (jonbenet's/photographers) to a lab for comparison,IT simply did not match. The tape in appearance was identical,but not in fiber count. It's another legend ,or so it seems... that McGuckins was the source for the tape on Jonbenet.
The knife found on the upstairs counter was described as a paring knife,one used to cut veggies and fruit,not the swiss.
IMO

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Given the short time between manufacture and sale of the tape, it is mrerely possible that it was bought in Boulder, but by no means certain or even likely.

There are several knives involved but the one found in the laundry room counter was more a kitchen knife than some sort of personal knife.

Toth, you mean that none of the rolls of tape that were produced on the same 'run' as the infamous strip of duct tape had made it to, and were sold by any retailer in or around Boulder?

Is that a fact? Has LE verified that the tape could not have been purchased in a Boulder store in the weeks prior to Christmas, 1996?

Of course it could have. If it was on the shelves by then, it could have been purchased.

I am sure investigators checked into the fact that the tape was available, to the every-day consumer, prior to 12/26.

 

[Toth]

Toth, you mean that none of the rolls of tape that were produced on the same 'run' as the infamous strip of duct tape had made it to, and were sold by any retailer in or around Boulder?
...
I am sure investigators checked into the fact that the tape was available, to the every-day consumer, prior to 12/26.

There is actually no way to prove anything about the tape. Although the manufacturer happened to make the first of two changes to the tape on a certain date, that tape had the same item number and same bar code as all other tape and was sent to distributors for reshipment to various retail outlets. Most, if not all, of those distributors and warehouses would follow a FIFO system and it is therefore POSSIBLE that the tape "rolled" all the way from rural NC to Boulder, CO in the available time, but it can neither be proven nor disproven. It was well after the murder that the BPD even found out about the relatively narrow window of manufacturing time, but once the company officials told them that there was no way to track something once it left the plant, that ended it as far as the BPD was concerned.
There was no way to turn the clock back to December 26th and pull all items from McGuckin's and test them.

Now if you think it reasonable that a non-seasonal, low-ticket item like duct tape (as opposed to a festive Holiday tape) suddenly got shipped all the way from rural NC to Boulder from early November, then thats well what may have happened. I however think duct tape is not likely to travel quite so far quite so fast and would be on the shelves of only high volume retailers such as WalMart and HomeDepot and believe Boulder prides itself on trying to keep stores like that out.

 

[BlueCrab]

There are several knives involved but the one found in the laundry room counter was more a kitchen knife than some sort of personal knife.

Toth, let's clarify that just a little bit.

There were two knives. Burke's Swiss Army pocket knife was found on a shelf in the basement, not far from the body. A kitchen knife was found on the counter in the laundry room on the second floor, just outside of JonBenet's bedroom door.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

It's interesting that the kitchen knife was found near the cupboard where LHP said she'd hidden Burke's knife. He must have found his knife and laid the kitchen knife on the counter because he didn't need that knife now that he'd found his.

IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

It's interesting that the kitchen knife was found near the cupboard where LHP said she'd hidden Burke's knife. He must have found his knife and laid the kitchen knife on the counter because he didn't need that knife now that he'd found his.

IMO

Ivy,

You could be right on that. When shown a crime scene photo of the kitchen knife in the laundry on the second floor, Patsy said she couldn't think of any reason why a kitchen knife would be there.

JMO

 

[Toth]

Burke's Swiss Army pocket knife was found on a shelf in the basement, not far from the body.

Strange. The police description says red knire doesn't it? Not red pocket knife, not red folding knife, and it certainly does NOT say red pocket knife with the name Burke inscribed on it which is what I would undoubtedly have expected even those bumpkins at the BPD to say on the warrant return if that is what they found!

 

[Ivy]

Toth, the red knife was Burke Ramsey's red Swiss Army pocketknife. Deal with it.

Edited to add: Not even the Ramseys denied the red knife was Burke's.

According to John Ramsey in DOI (hardback) p. 321:

"I wondered if, as they walked through the basement, any of the jurors brought up the issue of Burke's red Swiss army knife, which according to the media had been found on the countertop near a sink, just a short distance from where JonBenet's body was found. The implication was that the killer could have used the knife to cut the nylon cord used to tie JonBenet's wrists together. The cord was also used to make the garrote placed around her neck, which ultimately resulted in her death by strangulation. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, our cleaning lady, had said on a TV talk show that she thought the issue of the knife was relevant to the murder."

imo

 

[why_nutt]

Strange. The police description says red knire doesn't it? Not red pocket knife, not red folding knife, and it certainly does NOT say red pocket knife with the name Burke inscribed on it which is what I would undoubtedly have expected even those bumpkins at the BPD to say on the warrant return if that is what they found!

You are demonstrably wrong: the warrant does, in fact, say a "Red pocket knife" was item 41KKY.

 

[TLynn]

I remember it being a "paring" knife that was found in the laundry area.

I've had the thought of a "knife exchange." Also, rope fibers were found in JonBenet's bed.

 

[Ivy]

TLynn, LHP called it a potato knife. It's been called a potato knife, kitchen knife and paring knife, but they all refer to the same knife.

imo

 

[Blazeboy3]

Besides John, Patsy, Burke and JonBenet, was there a fifth person in the Ramsey's house on the night of the murder?

If so, was he an unknown intruder who broke in, or was he a known person let into the house by Burke A/O JonBenet, or was he an overnight guest of the Ramsey family?

There's evidence that can be interpreted as a fifth person having been in the house. The mysteriously missing crime scene evidence is the one most often cited, such as:

o the missing roll of black duct tape;

o the missing 1/4" cord;

o the missing 9 pages from the notepad;

o the possible missing murder weapon;

o the missing tip of the paint brush handle;

o the missing dark blue wipe-down cloth;

o the possible missing size 6 panties;

o the missing red ink pen;

o the possible missing stun gun;

And there's other evidence suggesting a fifth person was in the house:

o Patsy on occasions referred to the perpetrators as "they";

o Aunt Pam stated there were two perpetrators, and she knows who they are;

o there was foreign DNA on JonBenet;

o the handwriting in the ransom note cannot be positively identified;

o a single earring found at the curbing in front of the house went unclaimed;

o Burke was 9 and therefore not culpable, so a Ramsey coverup seemed unnecessary unless it was to coverup for someone 10 or older;

o there was highly unusual behavior by the Stines following the murder.


JMO

MAJOR CLUE HERE . .. ALL items listed above could have fit into Patsy's purse/handbag ...don't ya think? IMHO the Ransom Note is the "key" and it really depends on "what day it is AND who you talk to" in regards to "WHO WROTE IT!!!"!!! OH LET US PRAY (?) LOL?