Fifth Person In the House?

[Toth]

a "Red pocket knife" was item 41KKY.

If Burke's knife has his name inscribed on it, wouldn't this item have been more specifically described if it was the same one.

Where was 41KKY obtained from?

 

[why_nutt]

If Burke's knife has his name inscribed on it, wouldn't this item have been more specifically described if it was the same one.

Where was 41KKY obtained from?

I do not see why the knife would be described, for warrant-description purposes, as "red pocket knife inscribed with the name 'Burke'." The paintbrush in the garrotte was not described as "Korean paintbrush" even though the word Korea was visible. The bat found outside is not described as "bat bearing a logo from X company." One item taken is described as "Birthday card (82BAB)," but whose birthday card is it? For warrant purposes, it does not matter, because the evidence number is sufficient as an ID as far as investigators and the courts are concerned. The same would be true of the red pocket knife. We can infer it is Burke's because there has been ample testimonial evidence that Burke was the only person in the house who owned red pocket knives. John has not claimed any knife as his own, Patsy has not exhibited confusion over whether a knife she was shown was Burke's or John's or even her own, JonBenet's, John Andrew's, Melinda's, Nedra's or Don Paugh's. If you go by Patsy's testimony, the only choices for whom a red pocket knife could belong to are Burke or an intruder.

As to where it was found, that is not clear. If you look at the items as they are grouped together by evidence number, item 41KKY could have come from either the basement (where previous items Canvas bag in crawlspace (37KKY), black sheet metal in wine cellar (39KKY), and Broken purple ornament from basement (40KKY) came from), or it could have come from the second floor near JonBenet's bedroom (where items Vacuumed fibers (42KKY), Felt tip pen (43KKY), Hair fibers from victim's pillow (44KKY), Fibers from victim's bed (46KKY), Fiber's from victim's pillow (47KKY), Vacuumed fibers from victim's bed (48KKY), or Vacuumed fibers from victim's pillow and bedspread (50KKY) came from).

 

[BlueCrab]

why_nut is correct. Item 40kky was a "broken purple ornament from basement". Item 41kky was a "red pocket knife with broken ornament".

It's obvious the broken ornament, which likely contained Burke's name, came from Burke's red Swiss Army knife found on a shelf in the basement.

It was the same pocket knife LHP had hidden in the cupboard on the second floor just outside of JonBet's bedroom door a month earlier, but which showed up in the basement on the day of the crime. It also appears that whoever found the hidden pocket knife had exchanged it for a kitchen knife he had been using in the meantine -- leaving the kitchen knife on the counter just outside of JonBenet's room. Who, other than Burke, would do that?

JMO

 

[sissi]

Why would the warrant not say,broken ornament then list the pocket knife. The wording pocket knife w/broken ornament could suggest (since this is supposed to be a description of the item) a knife with a little ornament on it that was broken?
IMO
my kids had blue ones with a little boyscout insignia ornament

 

[BlueCrab]

Why would the warrant not say,broken ornament then list the pocket knife. The wording pocket knife w/broken ornament could suggest (since this is supposed to be a description of the item) a knife with a little ornament on it that was broken?
IMO
my kids had blue ones with a little boyscout insignia ornament

The knife and the ornament were listed separately because the ornament was broken off the knife, making it two pieces.

JMO

 

[Toth]

or it could have come from the second floor near JonBenet's bedroom

Where LHP said she had hidden it?

 

[Seeker]

The knife and the ornament were listed separately because the ornament was broken off the knife, making it two pieces.

JMO

I read it as it had a broken ornament that was still attached to it, not that they were listing it as something seperate from the knife. Red pocket knife with broken ornament, sounds like tennis shoe with broken lace...not that it's seperate from the main item, but just a description of the entire item.

 

[sissi]

I read it as it had a broken ornament that was still attached to it, not that they were listing it as something seperate from the knife. Red pocket knife with broken ornament, sounds like tennis shoe with broken lace...not that it's seperate from the main item, but just a description of the entire item.

Yes,Seeker that's how I think it is to be interpreted ,since there is a broken ornament listed separately from the knife w/broken ornament. Don't the little red swiss knives have a little metal piece on them with a red cross? Maybe this was to show Burke for purpose of identification ,his may have not had the broken "ornament".
Burke,if a scout,should have had the blue one to whittle.I know my kids from their first whittling of ivory soap used the "standard boyscout blue".
IMO

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Hmmm...

The manufacturer of the "Swiss Army" knives is Victorinox.

http://www.victorinox.ch/newsite/en/produkte/index.htm

I don't know why I didn't know that little bit of trivia...Did anyone else know about the manufacturer name?

I doubt it means a thing, unless, "Victorinox" is written on the knives. I don't think it is...

The only way the name of the company could be significant is if the perp had the knife in his(her) hand, read the insignia, and decided to throw in "Victory" at the bottom of the note just because it was fresh in their mind...

What does "nox" mean...Is it 'night?' Victory Night?

 

[BlueCrab]

What does "nox" mean...Is it 'night?' Victory Night?

"Nox" is the Roman Goddess of Night.

JMO

 

[why_nutt]

Hmmm...

The manufacturer of the "Swiss Army" knives is Victorinox.

http://www.victorinox.ch/newsite/en/produkte/index.htm

I don't know why I didn't know that little bit of trivia...Did anyone else know about the manufacturer name?

I doubt it means a thing, unless, "Victorinox" is written on the knives. I don't think it is...

The only way the name of the company could be significant is if the perp had the knife in his(her) hand, read the insignia, and decided to throw in "Victory" at the bottom of the note just because it was fresh in their mind...

What does "nox" mean...Is it 'night?' Victory Night?

Another little piece of trivia, perhaps not so trivial in a Keyser Soze way, is that the "Victori" in Victorinox comes from the name Victoria. Victoria is the name of Patsy's great-grandmother on her Paugh side. Another fact is that Patsy's wedding ring was an heirloom; it used to belong to Victoria Paugh. So every time Patsy looks at her wedding ring, she is reminded of Victoria. If Patsy were to hold Burke's knife in her left hand (the "sinister" hand), she would see a great deal of "victori" in a small area. To make one further connection to the knife, the speculation about SBTC meaning Saved By The Cross is enhanced when you know that the logo appearing on all Swiss army knives is a red cross.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Another little piece of trivia, perhaps not so trivial in a Keyser Soze way, is that the "Victori" in Victorinox comes from the name Victoria. Victoria is the name of Patsy's great-grandmother on her Paugh side. Another fact is that Patsy's wedding ring was an heirloom; it used to belong to Victoria Paugh. So every time Patsy looks at her wedding ring, she is reminded of Victoria. If Patsy were to hold Burke's knife in her left hand (the "sinister" hand), she would see a great deal of "victori" in a small area. To make one further connection to the knife, the speculation about SBTC meaning Saved By The Cross is enhanced when you know that the logo appearing on all Swiss army knives is a red cross.

Oh, come on you guys! Are you trying to draw symbolic connections between items in the case and Patsy's life?????????????????

Are you actually finding mythological motifs as well?????????????????

Aren't you going over the top, around the bend, scraping the bottom of the barrel???????????????????

Good God! (pun intended)

Next thing ya know you'll be saying The Bible shows up in the case!!!!!!!!

Sheeeese!

(Well done, btw) :clap:

 

[why_nutt]

Oh, come on you guys! Are you trying to draw symbolic connections between items in the case and Patsy's life?????????????????

Are you actually finding mythological motifs as well?????????????????

Aren't you going over the top, around the bend, scraping the bottom of the barrel???????????????????

Good God! (pun intended)

Next thing ya know you'll be saying The Bible shows up in the case!!!!!!!!

Sheeeese!

(Well done, btw) :clap:

You have no idea how close I had come in the original posting to adding a parenthetical note of (Feeling in a rather BrotherMoon mood at the moment).

 

[BrotherMoon]

Hmmm...

The manufacturer of the "Swiss Army" knives is Victorinox.

http://www.victorinox.ch/newsite/en/produkte/index.htm

I don't know why I didn't know that little bit of trivia...Did anyone else know about the manufacturer name?

I doubt it means a thing, unless, "Victorinox" is written on the knives. I don't think it is...

The only way the name of the company could be significant is if the perp had the knife in his(her) hand, read the insignia, and decided to throw in "Victory" at the bottom of the note just because it was fresh in their mind...

What does "nox" mean...Is it 'night?' Victory Night?

It's synchronicities like this that I live for. Thanks for making my day Wmg.

 

[Britt]

The manufacturer of the "Swiss Army" knives is Victorinox.

Outstanding catch, WMGirl. As Why_nutt and TLynn have mentioned... this could be Keyser Soze type staging. The Usual Suspects came out in '95, so it would be fairly fresh in the perp's mind.

 

[Ivy]

I strongly doubt John and Patsy would have knowingly left anything belonging Burke close enough to JonBenet's body that police might consider it possible evidence. I don't think John and Patsy noticed the Swiss Army knife. If they had, I think they would have removed it.

imo

 

[BrotherMoon]

Outstanding catch, WMGirl. As Why_nutt and TLynn have mentioned... this could be Keyser Soze type staging. The Usual Suspects came out in '95, so it would be fairly fresh in the perp's mind.

`
What's Keyser Soze?

 

[sissi]

I strongly doubt John and Patsy would have knowingly left anything belonging Burke close enough to JonBenet's body that police might consider it possible evidence. I don't think John and Patsy noticed the Swiss Army knife. If they had, I think they would have removed it.

imo

I know we have very different points of view concerning the identity of the murderer,and you are right, this information is interesting in that it would IMO point away from both ,the possibility of the parents covering for anyone and the possibility of their committing the crime.
If ,indeed,the knife was hidden by LHP,and not available as late as the 23rd,and no one,including Patsy Ramsey, knew the location of this knife,it stands out as something that would implicate a Pugh. No I do not think LHP killed Jonbenet,however,who in that clan may have been designated to pick up that CHECK? Why wasn't the check picked up? If you KNEW there was a check,and the family was gone by 6 am,the banks opened at 9,wouldn't you go get it ? I can understand ,just these few questions,perhaps the reasons behind Patsy wondering about the "maid".
IMO

 

[Ivy]

Hi, sissi. I'm sure you know I wasn't implying that the presence of the knife points away from John and Patsy as the killers and/or stagers.

As for the possibility that LHP might have gone against Patsy's instructions and asked someone to pick up the check before December 27th, the day LHP was scheduled to clean the Rs' house, I can't imagine LHP sending someone to do that, knowing that the Rs' neighbors might call the cops if they saw a stranger entering the house while the Rs were gone. Anyway, obviously no one tried to pick up the check a day early. If someone had, s/he would have found the Ramseys at home, and depending how late the picker-upper arrived, maybe lots of other people as well.

If there was an early picker-upper, whether it was LHP or someone she designated to get the check, who entered the Rs' house on Christmas, and hid--or on Christmas night--or in the wee hours of the 26th--it wasn't to get the check. It was to kidnap or kill JonBenet, making sure to use Burke's knife to cut the cord or whatever, or at least plant the knife fairly close to the body. Is that what you think Patsy may have been wondering about?

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

The Swiss Army knife and its broken emblem has become a little bit more intriguing.

LHP hid the knife about one month before the murder. The knife was apparently recently found, perhaps on Christmas Day, in the cabinet at the second floor laundry because the finder appears to have discarded a kitchen knife there he had been using in place of the Swiss Army knife. Patsy, John or LHP would have noticed the kitchen knife on the second floor counter and likely not have let it just lie there.

So, if the recently-found Swiss Army knife was taken to the basement, how did it get its ornament broken off so soon? The emblem on Victorinox (victory at night) Swiss Army knives is a CROSS.

Was the emblem used somehow in a ritualistic scenario? If the mark on JonBenet's face wasn't from a stun gun, could it have been from the broken emblem being pressed hard into her skin for whatever reason?

JMO