It's different because I'm a small woman. If someone was following me, I'd try to back away, look for an exit area, look around for any lights on in homes. It's not really comparable what my reaction would be compared to the reaction of a fit young man. And although we've seen pictures of Trayvon, we haven't seen what GZ looks like.
FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain
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It's different because I'm a small woman. If someone was following me, I'd try to back away, look for an exit area, look around for any lights on in homes. It's not really comparable what my reaction would be compared to the reaction of a fit young man. And although we've seen pictures of Trayvon, we haven't seen what GZ looks like.
So the 911 operator doesn't have a right to tell people what to do, yet a private person has a right to confront people just because he is self-appointed watch captain on the property? Seems like a very strange logic to me.
GZ doesn't have the right to tell Trayvon what to do.
He does have the right to interact with him in a civil way on the street, on private property.
I'm a little irritated at the media using the term "self-appointed". Crime watch captains ARE self-appointed. That's how you get to be one. You volunteer, and by concensus of the neighbors, you're it. He was listed in an article in the neighborhood newsletter as being the crime watch contact, so it's not like he just secretly self-appointed himself and everyone else was against it. He volunteered to fill this position in the neighborhood when the crime watch committee was formed after several property break ins.
angelmom
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Yes, NW captains are volunteers and are a big help in deterring crime. But they are not cops or even security guards, and have no authority to detain someone.
Do we really believe that he politely asked Trayvon, "Hey. Who are you here visiting?" and Trayvon just started beating the hell out of him? I'm not buying that.
After being advised by the 911 operator to wait for LE, this guy obviously did something to frighten or upset Trayvon, and we will never know what because this guy has no incentive to tell the truth if it implicates him at all.
I'm not officially on the neighborhood watch, but I am a nosy neighbor who has called 911 before for issues in our neighborhood. I have asked the cable guy if I could help him when he was walking through my yard, and called the cable company to verify that he is supposed to be there.
But there is no way in hell I'd confront someone just for walking down the sidewalk. I wouldn't even get involved beyond calling 911 if they were breaking into a house where no one was home. The only way I would physically engage someone before LE got there is to prevent someone else from being harmed.
Zimmerman is completely to blame for this situation. Unless they can show that Trayvon was actually committing a crime and not just walking down the street being black, Zimmerman should be charged. You don't get to go start a fight with someone and then kill them because they fight back.
Lovejac
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I tell my kids if anyone tries to grab you, you fight back and get away. Tray had NO WAY of knowing who this creep was who was following him in a car. I would have thought it was a pervert getting ready to grab me. I would have fought back too.
Zimmerman made a stupid decision. He called 911 to report something suspicious and was told to wait for LE to arrive but he didn't.
tlcya
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Here's my suspicion of how things went down.
Tray is walking along, heading back to the house is staying at.
CZ is driving along, armed, keeping an eye out for trouble in the gated community.
CZ spots Tray, an unfamiliar young AA male strolling through the darkness
CZ crawls along in the car trailing behind Tray
Tray senses his follower and surepticiously glances back trying to use his peripheral vision, possibly worried about being jumped, why else is someone rolling along slowy behind me, keeping pace. His hackles are now UP.
Finally, Tray turns and holds his arms wide palms up, probably defiant and cocky, hoping to scare off his unwanted stalker, and says "you got some kind of problem?!"
CZ then decides to confront this "suspicious" young man. He stops the car, steps out of the car and probably asks Tray who he is and what his business is in the neighborhood.
Tray, offended by this unknown person acting as if Tray has no right to be there, says something to the effect of "none of your damn business" or maybe "what's it to you?"
CZ then moves toward Tray, who is standing on the sidewalk.
Tray takes this as a threat of possible violence or attack coming his way. (as far as we know CZ is the agressor, at least in Tray's eyes) Tray decks the strange, confrontational man who is now coming towards him. They scuffle.
CZ pulls his weapon and shoots Tray.
I stick with my original opinion on this - CZ should not have been packing his gun, he should not have continued following Tray, per the 911 dispatcher's instructions, and lastly, he never should have confronted Tray.
From Tray's perpective, CZ could have been a threat.
From CZ's perspective, Tray was none. He was in a vehicle, he had reported his "suspicious" young AA male to authorities. There was no need for what came next. Zero.
Tray is walking along, heading back to the house is staying at.
CZ is driving along, armed, keeping an eye out for trouble in the gated community.
CZ spots Tray, an unfamiliar young AA male strolling through the darkness
CZ crawls along in the car trailing behind Tray
Tray senses his follower and surepticiously glances back trying to use his peripheral vision, possibly worried about being jumped, why else is someone rolling along slowy behind me, keeping pace. His hackles are now UP.
Finally, Tray turns and holds his arms wide palms up, probably defiant and cocky, hoping to scare off his unwanted stalker, and says "you got some kind of problem?!"
CZ then decides to confront this "suspicious" young man. He stops the car, steps out of the car and probably asks Tray who he is and what his business is in the neighborhood.
Tray, offended by this unknown person acting as if Tray has no right to be there, says something to the effect of "none of your damn business" or maybe "what's it to you?"
CZ then moves toward Tray, who is standing on the sidewalk.
Tray takes this as a threat of possible violence or attack coming his way. (as far as we know CZ is the agressor, at least in Tray's eyes) Tray decks the strange, confrontational man who is now coming towards him. They scuffle.
CZ pulls his weapon and shoots Tray.
I stick with my original opinion on this - CZ should not have been packing his gun, he should not have continued following Tray, per the 911 dispatcher's instructions, and lastly, he never should have confronted Tray.
From Tray's perpective, CZ could have been a threat.
From CZ's perspective, Tray was none. He was in a vehicle, he had reported his "suspicious" young AA male to authorities. There was no need for what came next. Zero.
tlcya
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IMO, unless Tray was suspended from school for threatening to beat the crap out of any neighborhood watch captains who confront him in gated communities he is visiting a resident of - its irrelevant.
CZ had no knowledge of this young man having been suspended from school and therefore, it is not a factor in whatever ocurred between CZ and Tray
CZ had no knowledge of this young man having been suspended from school and therefore, it is not a factor in whatever ocurred between CZ and Tray
I can't link from my phone but local news reported that he was at his father's fiancee's home, and that he had been there numerous times. The family filed suit this morning wanting the 911 call released, in order to find out what exactly was said.
It seems like a factor to me.
Depending on what the issue was that got him suspended, it helps fill in the gaps about whether he would act in an aggressive way with little provocation.
Matters a lot.
I think most people would be concerned if somebody was following them in the car. If GZ was told by 911 to wait for police I fail to see what would be the reason for him to get out of his car. I also think whether it's considered self-defense or not pretty much depends on what state it took place at. I very much doubt that in most states this kind of thing would be considered self-defense. But this is in FL so...
If 911 told GZ to stay put there was no need for any provocation to happen here. I still have no idea as to what exactly was suspicious about the teenager. If teenager noticed being followed then he could have become concerned as most people would.
I think your scenario is probably exactly what happened, except it's not clear that Trayvon had any fight wounds whatsoever except the fatal shot, and CZ had at least two significant blows to the head.
I don't want to live in a world where healthy able bodied citizens see things that are suspicious to them in light of recent break ins, and they peek out from their curtains and call 911. Can you imagine a world like that? Where NO citizens try to take action to avert crime when something is going on? As a mother of three sons, I'm STILL completely okay with grown men in a neighborhood after dark asking what they're up to.
As an example, last summer we were in horrific fire danger - the state was burning and more fires began every day. I live on the side of a steep ravine, and if it caught fire we'd be engulfed in a matter of minutes. The woods were tinderbox dry. There is an area at the bottom of the ravine where teenage boys go to hang out, there's a strip of public property down there. It was a place to smoke marijuana, cigarettes, and light a little campfire. Often boys just went down there to hang out, and there is a rope swing. Last summer we did NOT hesitate to run the boys off even if what they were doing was perfectly legal, on the chance they would be smoking down there. I confronted groups of boys myself, and I know many others did too when they'd see boys headed to the trailhead. (No evidence that they were even going to go on the trail, much less light fires). "No sirs, go back where you came from, you're not going down into the ravine. If I see you going down in there, I'm calling the cops. Have a good day".
Works for me.
I don't think CZ had any right to do THAT - to tell someone walking on a side walk to go away - but he had every right to check him out. That's what keeps neighborhoods safe. Used to be, young people would submit to a small amount of questioning about what they were up to by adults.
I grew up on an air force base, and it was COMMON for men on the base to stop and question boys who didn't look like they belonged on the base - which is closed like a gated community. And the boys would tell who they were and where they lived, and if they didn't, they were taken to the guard post for them to figure out who they were.
And I'm fine with that too.
Maybe somebody can explain to me as to what exactly is suspicious about a teenager with an iced tea and skittles? If I just saw people on the sidewalk and call them in as suspicious I could be calling police all day long. What is it that this teenager was doing that was suspicious?
We don't know what Trayvon was doing that looked suspicious. It might just be his race, or it might be that he stopped to admire a car and it looked like he was casing it in the dark, or who knows what seemed "suspicious".
Without hearing the 911 call, it's hard to tell. I wouldn't think that a man with a four year degree in criminal justice would have called a young black man who was walking purposefully along a sidewalk in the early evening "suspicious", but maybe.
Found a link.
"WFTV uncovered a picture that George Zimmerman took at the Orange County Jail in 2005 when he was arrested for battery on a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/man-who-shot-killed-teen-sanford-neighborhood-has-/nLPgL/
"WFTV uncovered a picture that George Zimmerman took at the Orange County Jail in 2005 when he was arrested for battery on a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/man-who-shot-killed-teen-sanford-neighborhood-has-/nLPgL/
Since the case was dismissed, it's possible it didn't happen. I don't think you usually get away with beating up cops. When I see "battery on a police officer" and then nothing comes of it and charges are dismissed, sounds to me . . well.
Why was he arrested if nothing happened?
It doesn't take much to be charged with that. If the officer was reaching towards him and gz pushed his hand away, that is enough for an arrest on both the charges.
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