FL FL - Sabrina Aisenberg, 5 months, Valrico, 24 Nov 1997

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hi tipper...logic and honesty are what crime investigation is about. and DA and LE are in the same bed. i will admit to a certain "us versus them" mentality in law enforcement but the "them" is the bad guys, not the public. we are committed to protecting the public and the innocent...are there a few bad LE types...sure. and we are the toughest on our own, there is nothing scarier than an IA investigation if you're a bad cop. and we tend NOT to be naive...we know anyone is capable of anything. as for planting evidence...so RARE. we have no personal stake in what we investigate, nor do we create the crime that leads us to a case. you know one bad cop out of 10,000 hurts us all, that's why we police our own. but i don't see public hatred of accountants based on one bad accountant. SMELLSARAT... there are 3 families in my jurisdiction that most family members in jail at the same time...mom, son, sister, aunt, brother, you would not believe it! it's a running joke with us. and it happens everywhere...it's that family's dynamics and lifestyle. don't really care about fells acres case enough to get into it however. i'm into HOMICIDE!
 
I have come to the conclusion,that The Aisenberg's are "low-rent"Ramsey's (IMO)and are involved in Sabrina's dissapearance and I don't belive they were "set up" by LE,whatsoever.LE knew/knows they "did it" but couldn't fully show how/why so in a rush to get an indictment (which would have given them a shot at a confession or plea) they went with what they had and had they had a different judge (dont get me started on judges!!!!! people blame LE for things when Judges are the ones who should be more accountable!) it might have turned out different.


However though I'm on the fence about The Amirault/Fells Acres case.
During the 80's there was the "Satanic Panic"/Molestation wave across the country and some innocent people did go to jail ..............I don't know,some days I feel theyre innocent,other days I'm not so sure.
 
messiecake said:
I have come to the conclusion,that The Aisenberg's are "low-rent"Ramsey's (IMO)and are involved in Sabrina's dissapearance and I don't belive they were "set up" by LE,whatsoever.LE knew/knows they "did it" but couldn't fully show how/why so in a rush to get an indictment (which would have given them a shot at a confession or plea) they went with what they had and had they had a different judge (dont get me started on judges!!!!! people blame LE for things when Judges are the ones who should be more accountable!) it might have turned out different.


However though I'm on the fence about The Amirault/Fells Acres case.
During the 80's there was the "Satanic Panic"/Molestation wave across the country and some innocent people did go to jail ..............I don't know,some days I feel theyre innocent,other days I'm not so sure.
Click to expand...
Funny you mention judges...was listening to a talk radio program locally.... They were talking about a seminar for Sex harrassment and the Atty Gen of New hampshire was dirty dancing...and a judge who attended was pulling women up to the dance floor by the neck and making them dance with him!!!!! At least 5 women were dragged up by him!!!
Are these people complete idiots?????!!!!:rolleyes:
Maybe this was BEFORE the conference.....DUH:waitasec:
 
deputylinda said:
hi tipper...logic and honesty are what crime investigation is about. and DA and LE are in the same bed. i will admit to a certain "us versus them" mentality in law enforcement but the "them" is the bad guys, not the public. we are committed to protecting the public and the innocent...are there a few bad LE types...sure. and we are the toughest on our own, there is nothing scarier than an IA investigation if you're a bad cop. and we tend NOT to be naive...we know anyone is capable of anything. as for planting evidence...so RARE. we have no personal stake in what we investigate, nor do we create the crime that leads us to a case. you know one bad cop out of 10,000 hurts us all, that's why we police our own. but i don't see public hatred of accountants based on one bad accountant. ...
Click to expand...
We agree that the few bad LE types are not common but they do exist. Setting them aside...

I think for someone to choose a career in LE or medicine or the military they must naturally have certain amount of self-confidence in their opinions and decisions. Otherwise they wouldn't choose a career that carries life and death consequences. I understand the Us vs Them mentality but when the police choose who the Them is I think they need to be very careful. Particularly in a case like this where (as far as I know) there is nothing that points a finger in a specific direction. If this family had had a history of financial or drug or alcohol or child abuse problems then LE would have had something to base their suspicians on. As it was the Aisenbergs didn't and so LE lied (on more than one occasion)to make the parents seem likely to be guilty. They didn't wait for the Aisenberg financial background check to be done. They simply declared to a judge that the family was in financial trouble. They weren't.

When the police do that, when they make the decision on who the bad guy is and then start tryuing to make that person fit the crime I think we are all a bit less safe.

Police have a lot of power. The fact that they say a particular individual committed a crime carries a lot of weight. With that power should come the responsibility of protecting people's rights. Messiecake seems to be willing to give LE a pass in their behavior and thinks with a different judge it might have been OK. But more than one judge has ruled on this as well as federal prosecutors saying that (for the first time ever) the Hyde Amendment applies and the government was ordered to pay the Aisenbergs legal bills.

I don't think these two detectives are malevolent people. I don't think they are corrupt. I think they decided who the bad guys were and, with that self-confidence that made them want to be cops to begin with, knew they couldn't be wrong.

I remember reading once that Mark Fuhrman worked during his off hours to prove some defendent was innocent. I'm sure there are others who have done the same. But we have only to look at Sheck's Innocence Project to know that mistakes are made. Sometimes they are genuinely innocent errors with tragic life-altering ramifications. But sometimes they are the result of over-zealous cops and/or prosecutors willing to cut corners because they know they've got the right guy.

----------------------

Deputylinda - Got your email. Thanks :)
 
This case has always baffled me, but I definitely lean more towards the parents being guilty. It's just my gut feeling, based primarily on the following facts:

The door being unlocked
The dog not barking (seldom would a dog not bark at a stranger.)
The fact that the "alleged" kidnapper knew the layout of the house
and did not leave any real physical DNA evidence,
and
the plain fact that babies are not kidnapped from their homes by
strangers very often.

The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement.
 
Tristan said:
This case has always baffled me, but I definitely lean more towards the parents being guilty. It's just my gut feeling, based primarily on the following facts:

The door being unlocked
The dog not barking (seldom would a dog not bark at a stranger.)
The fact that the "alleged" kidnapper knew the layout of the house
and did not leave any real physical DNA evidence,
and
the plain fact that babies are not kidnapped from their homes by
strangers very often.

The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement.
Click to expand...

I think if you read this entire thread, you will see that not only have the parents been vindicated, there is evidence someone (they did not know) was in their home that night. The family was awarded a judgment for the injustices done by LE and the community.

My understanding is, the parents have been cleared. I believe there was an attempt to frame and slander them, and that's why they won a judgment.
The links provided on this thread will prove to be very enlightening to you, Tristan. I have already seen several do an about face on this particular case, once having read the facts.

If the abductor lived nearby, and they were "cookie cutter" homes (all having similar layouts, then he/she would know the floor plan. If someone was watching this family, with the intent of stealing their child and raising it as their own, they knew when they would be most vulnerable and when to strike and take the child. Perhaps they lived in the neighborhood and had befriended the dog. That does happen. Dogs can be bribed with treats and love, especially if the dog recognizes someone.

I was wondering about your statement "the plain fact that babies are not kidnapped from their homes by strangers very often." Do you have a link that provides the actual numbers for this? I think that people (no matter what age) are not taken from their homes very often. It's actually more common for someone to be nabbed on the street, when no one is watching.

Also curious about this statement, "The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement." and was wondering if that is just your theory, or a factual statement.

TIA for any answers you can find or provide.

Thanks for your reply, and God bless you.
With HOPE for Sabrina, Lanie
 
I think it's been well established that the parents were not involed and that this was in fact a "Stranger Kidnapping". The mother is convinced that the child was taken for maternal purposes, meaning she believes someone is caring for her child, who would now be seven years old. The 48 hours program last night was very insightful and I was not aware of the flimsy case the Feds took to court based on transcripts of the bugging of their home. For three months they recorded conversations between the family in their home, unbeknownst to them, and not one shred of evidence was on those recordings to implicate them. The authorities originally had quotes from the recordings that looked to implicate them, but the recordings were all but unusable, and most of the voices on the tapes were determined to be television programs. It makes me wonder if the the police hadn't focused so much of the investigation toward the parents that other leads would have presented themselves. I feel like this is one of those rare kidnapping cases that could end up with some closure. The mother seems adamant in her beliefs that the child is alive, and with no reason to believe other wise as of yet, I hope they can be reunited one day. I feel bad for what these poor people have been put through, it was a travesty.
 
After reading the report about how the Aisenbergs were treated, I feel so angry...I am sick of hearing how LE treats some of the relatives of the missing, and these poor parents got the worst of it.

I am well aware that LE must include parents, spouses and other relatives in their investigations, but to torture people for years, and at the expense of investigating other leads thoroughly (and yes, this does take away from the rest of the investigation), is in itself criminal.

My 7-year old daughter was missing once---for a grand total of 45 minutes.

My daughter disappeared without a trace, I was a single mom at the time, newly divorced, taking some meds for anxiety and depression related to my new situation, had a new boyfriend who didn't have the greatest reputation around town. I, in my new, stressful situation, had expressed some doubts to some friends and relatives about my ability to handle being a mom in my new role as single mother.

My daughter just decided early one morning while I was still asleep, that she would just take off for a walk around town. Thankfully, the police picked her up and not someone else.

If someone else had picked her up, she would have just disappeared, and it would have been my word alone that she just wasn't home when I woke up.

During the time she was missing, I was absolutely panicked to the point of not being able to function---on the inside. On the outside, I was completely flat and numb, very blank.

To say someone is guilty based on the fact that they just don't "look right" is absurd. Sorry, I've been there, even just briefly, and it isn't the case.

Now, with my life situation at the time this incident happened with my daughter, and things I'd said to people about my fears of being a single parent, my emotional state, my boyfriend situation, and my flat response to my daughter being missing---can you imagine the "field day" the media and LE could and probably would have had at my expense?

I can.
 
Mom, I have great empathy for you, and, yes, you could have found yourself in a very uncomfortable position.

Just as all minister's sons are not religious, not all LE are ethical persons. A few would do questionable things to further their career. Or, perhaps some are simple afraid to admit they're wrong. It's possible, too, to start down a path and be blinded to other theories. (We all know about the Elizabeth Smart and Maura Murray cases.) Whatever the reason, innocent people can be harmed by LE decisions, as this case shows.

The one things about the case that bothers me is the fact that the dog did not bark. Everything else, however, seems to be in order. And, there was no evidence the parents mistreated the older children.
 
Besides the dog not barking, what about the tapes? Guess they weren't allowed for some reason. Saw story again last night on 48 hr Mystery or something like that, and the tapes were a confession of their involvement and how to get on the same page with their recollections of that night. I don't think there was an intruder.
 
Does anyone remember the case in Providence, RI where the infant was taken via ladder and later found dead in an alley??? Those parents claimed it was an abduction...later it was discovered the dad was into drugs and thw Mom questionable...the dad ended up in prison ..the baby had been raped I think....and the mom went to Indiana or somewhere out in the midwest and had another baby...I seem to remember the name Richards or Richardson...not sure...but was a bizarre case....not to say this one was the same...but just like Scott Peterson proves the rule on wife killed by husband...you can't blame the cops for thinking this way.........
 
Thinking it is one thing, investigating is also one thing too Smellsarat; however, having LE FABRICATE evidence is a whole other dirty basket of laundry. They should have went to jail - the police who made up the statements from the wiring. Poor parents.

BTW, don't know about the Rhode Island case at all.
 
blueclouds said:
Thinking it is one thing, investigating is also one thing too Smellsarat; however, having LE FABRICATE evidence is a whole other dirty basket of laundry. They should have went to jail - the police who made up the statements from the wiring. Poor parents.

BTW, don't know about the Rhode Island case at all.
Click to expand...
no, never said fabricating evidence is ok.....
 
"I was wondering about your statement "the plain fact that babies are notkidnapped from their homes by strangers very often." Do you have a link that provides the actual numbers for this? I think that people (no matter what age) are not taken from their homes very often. It's actually more common for someone to be nabbed on the street, when no one is watching.

Also curious about this statement, "The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement." and was wondering if that is just your theory, or a factual statement."

TIA for any answers you can find or provide.

Hi
I was unaware that the Aisenberg's had been vindicated. I would love to read more about the latest news on this case. Feel free to direct me to some links.

As for the quote: "The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement." That is something that I have read in many true crime books,
based upon the fact that a young child of 3 or 4, let alone a baby, has an incredibly small social circle, thereby the family is always looked into first, before pursuing other leads. If it were a peron in their 20's, say, they would have many friends, acquaintances and either co-workers or fellow students, etc. to be considered.

As for the fact that babies are not taken from their homes by strangers very often, I do not have a statistical figure on that, but I think we'd hear about it a lot more often if it was happening all the time. I live in New York City, and we seldom have babies being taken from theri homes. Perhaps it happens more in other areas, but if you have statistical information on that, please point me in that direction.

Have a wonderful day. :)
 
WasBlind said:
...I was wondering about your statement "the plain fact that babies are not kidnapped from their homes by strangers very often." Do you have a link that provides the actual numbers for this? I think that people (no matter what age) are not taken from their homes very often. It's actually more common for someone to be nabbed on the street, when no one is watching.

Also curious about this statement, "The younger the child, the greater the chance of family involvement." and was wondering if that is just your theory, or a factual statement.

TIA for any answers you can find or provide. ...
Click to expand...

Tristan said:
Response to WasBlind
Hi
I was unaware that the Aisenberg's had been vindicated. I would love to read more about the latest news on this case. Feel free to direct me to some links. ...
Click to expand...

The best links I can provide for you are on this thread, since several posters have already done the research. Once you have read this entire thread, and opened and read all links already provided, you will understand it better.

Sabrina Aisenberg Page 1

Sabrina Aisenberg page 2

In so far as the other links to statistics you asked for, I don't have them, nor do I have time to research the numbers. That's why I asked you. ;) My expertise on numbers comes from the missing cases I have networked and am currently networking. The reason Amber Alert is not sounded often is because abductions are rarely witnessed. The adults cases that are probable abductions are also rarely witnessed. I believe True Crime books often have fabricated information to "hook" the reader, so I do not rely on information provided by such books. I am working with the families of the missing, lost and abducted daily, and that's all the information I need, since they are living it. I base my numbers on what the NCIC stats say, only, as that is a factual account of the true statistics on missing persons.

Yes, family, friends and co-workers are the first to be questioned. Once cleared, LE should pursue every option to find a missing loved one. Time is critical in getting them back alive. If you have any questions about this, please feel free to e-mail me at the address in my signature.

Thanks for wishing me a wonderful day. I'm gonna try.
I'm just getting started, as it is about 6am here in Germany as I type this.
Hope your day is blessed, as well, Tristan.

*Please note, in the time it took for me to prepare this post to you, 10 people (adults and children) disappeared in America. This is a catastrophic problem which has reached epidemic proportions. We need your help! Please e-mail me on things you can do to assist the missing.*

With HOPE for Sabrina, Lanie
 
If you read the entire story, it sounds as if the tapes may have been altered by LE to prove their case.

48 Hours hired its own audio expert, Jack Mitchell, to listen to the tapes. "It's almost as if it were just simply made up," says Mitchell, who has worked for the U.S. Department of Justice. "There is no evidence whatsoever on any of these recordings that I have examined that will implicate the Aisenbergs in the disappearance of Baby Sabrina. None."

In fact, two judges appointed to review the prosecution's case found the Aisenberg tapes were "largely unintelligible." They called some of the statements false, and pure fiction. In a stunning blow to the prosecution, the recordings were ruled inadmissible.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/13/48hours/main666740.shtml
 
Just a gut feeling - but I sorta believe the neighbor that he swore he heard a baby crying late in the night. I truly believe this was a stranger kidnapping.

I remember many years ago when I lived in NY. My small children and I were sound asleep. When we woke up in the morning it was unusually cold in the house. The window pane of the kitchen door was carefully taken out - someone slipped in and stole my purse which I always left on the kitchen counter. We never heard a sound - I always think thank God thats all the creep did - so, yes, I tend to believe someone snuck in to steal that baby.

Just a gut feeling
 
smellsarat said:
Does anyone remember the case in Providence, RI where the infant was taken via ladder and later found dead in an alley??? Those parents claimed it was an abduction...later it was discovered the dad was into drugs and thw Mom questionable...the dad ended up in prison ..the baby had been raped I think....and the mom went to Indiana or somewhere out in the midwest and had another baby...I seem to remember the name Richards or Richardson...not sure...but was a bizarre case....not to say this one was the same...but just like Scott Peterson proves the rule on wife killed by husband...you can't blame the cops for thinking this way.........
Click to expand...
Oh - I remember that case VERY well! Funny you should bring it up - I've been trying to do an internet "search" on those two fro quite some time. Ralph & Donna Richards/Richard. They were from Pawtucket, RI. Those two were BEYOND bizarre. If I remember correctly, there was some very sicko behavior by the father of that baby. Arlene Violet was the RI Attorney General at the time, and she wrote a little about the case in her book "Convictions". Neither Ralph or Donna were convicted in the case - it was a sad outcome, and justice was never completed for that baby.
 
OB RN said:
Oh - I remember that case VERY well! Funny you should bring it up - I've been trying to do an internet "search" on those two fro quite some time. Ralph & Donna Richards/Richard. They were from Pawtucket, RI. Those two were BEYOND bizarre. If I remember correctly, there was some very sicko behavior by the father of that baby. Arlene Violet was the RI Attorney General at the time, and she wrote a little about the case in her book "Convictions". Neither Ralph or Donna were convicted in the case - it was a sad outcome, and justice was never completed for that baby.
Click to expand...
Thanks OBRN!!!! :) Yes that had have been some time ago..it was a really sick case...reminded one of the Lindbergh kidnapping initially....used a ladder against the babys room.....the Dad did go to jail for drugs at least but I do remember she moved to Indiana or somewhere and it was reported she had another poor baby!!! It was a shocking case at the time..!!!
 
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