Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[TxMother67]

When my husband was in Vietnam maggots were used frequently to help with the wounds. My husband began to tell me how they were used on him, but I could not listen to it, now that he is gone I wish I had listened more to how they were used for healing.

:hug::hug:

 

[kgeaux]

Oh, Lord. Good thing I've already chanted my mantra on Websleuths so many times!! Do you remember it? "Kgeaux has been wrong in the past. Kgeaux will be wrong in the future. Kgeaux may be wrong RIGHT NOW." I guess we know which part of the mantra applies here! Did I make your head spin?


LOL...no head spinning this time. I hope you didn't take what I was saying as being disrespectful....I wasn't meaning to be. AND....as we all know, at any given time in this case there COULD or COULD NOT have been pizza present.....I remember in the beginning there were FOUR pizza's in the trunk...LOL
Now it's NO pizza....next week it might be a calzone....or chicken lo mein!!!

No problem, Tinkie. I always assume everyone posts in a friendly manner, so it never occured to me that the post might be disrespectful! I took it as a friendly jibe at my OH SO OBVIOUS error! Someone would have to come out and say "Kgeaux is SO STUPID!" for me to think they might be being mean!

I am still having trouble with the pizza issue. :crazy: Dr. Lee says he found ham and cheese (sounds like pizza toppings to me) and FBI questioned George about "the pizza" instead of "the pizza box." Also Dr. Voss was obviously informed of the contents of the trunk before his airtest samples were run, and he states that there was a "decomposing pizza" which he later says was in error......but who told him about the decomposing pizza in the FIRST place? Why would someone (presumably from LE or FBI) misinform Dr. Voss? Who would have told him there was a decomposing pizza in the trunk if there wasn't one? I'm assuming Dr. Voss was given a list of items recovered from the trunk, since he is aware of and lists other items we know were in the trunk. Also, why would FBI question George about the smell of a pizza that did not exist? ( A "basketball size stain" sort of sounds like a stain from a pizza to me, but that doesn't figure into my thinking much since there are other more sinister and more probable sources of the stain.)
Bottom line with me: I ((suspect)) there WAS pizza in the trunk. LE, FBI, George, EVERYONE in the beginning was talking about the pizza. I can't explain this logically, it's more of a weird feeling, but I am basing my feelings on the questions I listed above PLUS what follows. Since several locals have posted about LE's sloppy evidence gathering, maybe the situation morphed from "decomposing pizza" to "no pizza" because evidence wasn't collected....we know Dr. Lee says he found ham, cheese, and other evidence STILL in the trunk, which he sent to LE.

What a tangled web this case is.

 

[Indigo]

No problem, Tinkie. I always assume everyone posts in a friendly manner, so it never occured to me that the post might be disrespectful! I took it as a friendly jibe at my OH SO OBVIOUS error! Someone would have to come out and say "Kgeaux is SO STUPID!" for me to think they might be being mean!

I am still having trouble with the pizza issue. :crazy: Dr. Lee says he found ham and cheese (sounds like pizza toppings to me) and FBI questioned George about "the pizza" instead of "the pizza box." Also Dr. Voss was obviously informed of the contents of the trunk before his airtest samples were run, and he states that there was a "decomposing pizza" which he later says was in error......but who told him about the decomposing pizza in the FIRST place? Why would someone (presumably from LE or FBI) misinform Dr. Voss? Who would have told him there was a decomposing pizza in the trunk if there wasn't one? I'm assuming Dr. Voss was given a list of items recovered from the trunk, since he is aware of and lists other items we know were in the trunk. Also, why would FBI question George about the smell of a pizza that did not exist? ( A "basketball size stain" sort of sounds like a stain from a pizza to me, but that doesn't figure into my thinking much since there are other more sinister and more probable sources of the stain.)
Bottom line with me: I ((suspect)) there WAS pizza in the trunk. LE, FBI, George, EVERYONE in the beginning was talking about the pizza. I can't explain this logically, it's more of a weird feeling, but I am basing my feelings on the questions I listed above PLUS what follows. Since several locals have posted about LE's sloppy evidence gathering, maybe the situation morphed from "decomposing pizza" to "no pizza" because evidence wasn't collected....we know Dr. Lee says he found ham, cheese, and other evidence STILL in the trunk, which he sent to LE.

What a tangled web this case is.

Hi kgeaux,

Below is Henry Lee's quote from the Nancy Grace show.(bolded by me) In Henry-speak, lol, I believe he's saying he's not sure if he's been informed correctly about what was collected earlier from the trunk. This is a pretty common tactic for paid experts whose main task is to confuse the evidence. Henry says he's "not sure," if he's been informed of the evidence collected so he doesn't have to stick to the exact truth of the matter:

<SNIP>

LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.

GRACE: Like what?

LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/17/ng.01.html

Note: There's a photo of the trash bag (before and after opening) in the new docs. It shows a ripped up pizza box(in several pieces), a few empty frozen food boxes, several cans from soda or energy drinks, an Arm and Hammer detergent bottle, something that looks like a roll on deodorant and some tissues/papers and a few other things that I can't make out. It really sounds like Lee is describing this evidence that was collected early on. JMO.

 

[FloridaKatz]

I would bet that they put the maggots in preservative and sent them to an entemologist. Even if all they got were the pupae casings, those would tell the entemologist exactly what species of fly it was, and the entemologist would be able to narrow down the timeline to HOURS, not days.

Bumping up for further discussion.

Based on LPs comments on NG last night re: LE may already have the body, I think it is true in that they do have at least a "part" of Caylee's body.

When LE went back to tow yard and recovered the infamous pizza bag, they secured it and sent it to a lab. Entemologists then have the ability to disect the maggot and remove whatever it has been feeding on (including liquids and tissue). If that tissue matches Caylee, then yes, they have found a part of Caylee's body.

Here's an interesting article I found that explains it pretty well. Note Discussion Section on p3 :

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/DNA Analysis from Maggots.pdf

What I would like to know is, can the dissection and testing of what the maggots have digested, identify a particular body of water, a particular soil area, a particular type of plant growth, etc., that could / would lead to the remainder of the body.

- Particular body of water (fresh water vs. salt water)
- Particular soil area (the A backyard vs. an area that has experienced marsh, bog or brushfire)
- Particular plant growth (native FL plants vs. say, Bamboo...)

I'm going to take a SWAG, and say that if an Entemologist can match what a maggot eats to a human dna profile, they can probably match what a maggot eats to the above.....

 

[Devon]

Bumping up for further discussion.

Based on LPs comments on NG last night re: LE may already have the body, I think it is true in that they do have at least a "part" of Caylee's body.

When LE went back to tow yard and recovered the infamous pizza bag, they secured it and sent it to a lab. Entemologists then have the ability to disect the maggot and remove whatever it has been feeding on (including liquids and tissue). If that tissue matches Caylee, then yes, they have found a part of Caylee's body.

Here's an interesting article I found that explains it pretty well. Note Discussion Section on p3 :

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/DNA Analysis from Maggots.pdf

What I would like to know is, can the dissection and testing of what the maggots have digested, identify a particular body of water, a particular soil area, a particular type of plant growth, etc., that could / would lead to the remainder of the body.

- Particular body of water (fresh water vs. salt water)
- Particular soil area (the A backyard vs. an area that has experienced marsh, bog or brushfire)
- Particular plant growth (native FL plants vs. say, Bamboo...)

I'm going to take a SWAG, and say that if an Entemologist can match what a maggot eats to a human dna profile, they can probably match what a maggot eats to the above.....

In the FBI forensic lab reports, there is a reference to volatile fatty acid tests that were (at time of report) still to be performed, and it states that this test is the best method of testing PMI 'in lieu of entomological evidence'. This suggests to me that they may not have had any suitable insects (e.g. maggots) to test. I know maggots were apparently found, but it is possible that these were not the flesh-eating type.

 

[Recovering-Lurker]

In the FBI forensic lab reports, there is a reference to volatile fatty acid tests that were (at time of report) still to be performed, and it states that this test is the best method of testing PMI 'in lieu of entomological evidence'. This suggests to me that they may not have had any suitable insects (e.g. maggots) to test. I know maggots were apparently found, but it is possible that these were not the flesh-eating type.

Bummer! I was really hoping a maggot milkshake would help put Casey away for good.

 

[kageykaren]

In the beginning of this case before forensics were known I caaled a local Tannery to ask them about decomp in animals verses a human. These men who make $7.00 hr. are very knowledgable & graphic when describing decomp gore. Rember, we only had the squirrle to go by.

 

[MissJames]

Bumping up for further discussion.

Based on LPs comments on NG last night re: LE may already have the body, I think it is true in that they do have at least a "part" of Caylee's body.

When LE went back to tow yard and recovered the infamous pizza bag, they secured it and sent it to a lab. Entemologists then have the ability to disect the maggot and remove whatever it has been feeding on (including liquids and tissue). If that tissue matches Caylee, then yes, they have found a part of Caylee's body.

Here's an interesting article I found that explains it pretty well. Note Discussion Section on p3 :

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/DNA Analysis from Maggots.pdf

What I would like to know is, can the dissection and testing of what the maggots have digested, identify a particular body of water, a particular soil area, a particular type of plant growth, etc., that could / would lead to the remainder of the body.

- Particular body of water (fresh water vs. salt water)
- Particular soil area (the A backyard vs. an area that has experienced marsh, bog or brushfire)
- Particular plant growth (native FL plants vs. say, Bamboo...)

I'm going to take a SWAG, and say that if an Entemologist can match what a maggot eats to a human dna profile, they can probably match what a maggot eats to the above.....

The maggots would have been there before KC disposed of Caylee's body ,so it would not lead to where the body is now.

 

[Skully]

I don't know why this is bothering me, but I decided to look up the life cycle of blow flies. I read that within minutes blow flies decend on a dead body, going to the natural openings and wounds of a dead body. They have six stages to the life cycle. The fly lays about 250 eggs, which are first stage larva in 23 hours, at about 130 hours thay are at 5th stage larva and ready to hatch to new flies at 143 hours, this is at about 70 degrees F. So it takes about 6 days to be egg to fly again. There were flies and maggots in the trunk at 31 days.

If a person was killed in a home, blow flies wouldn't come in minutes, unless they were present in the home. If the body was put in a bag, plastic could they get in? If the body were in the back yard, there would have been the presents of larva at the least when the dogs hit. They may have been dead larva but wouldn't it still be there? Some evidence of blow fly larva?

How many cylce lived off the decomposition fluid on the bag and the stain on the carpet? At least 5 cycles if you divide 6 days into 31 you get 5.16 cycles. So if this is the case, wouldn't KC have been driving around with flies and maggotts in her car once the bag broke and fluid leaked out. This may have been the reason the she needed bug spray and clorox. If Caylee died on June 16th, placed in a bag, and it broke at 2.6 days - just at June 19th that would make the stain and decomposition draw the flies at June 19th. Six days later is June 24th and you get a whole new batch, and June 27th she runs out of gas. By July 15th the flys and maggotts are still present in the trunk.

Is this possible? Or are the stages speeded up because of the higher degree factor in the heat, sun, closed enviroment in the trunk and body in plastic?

 

[Wudge]

I don't know why this is bothering me, but I decided to look up the life cycle of blow flies. I read that within minutes blow flies decend on a dead body, going to the natural openings and wounds of a dead body. They have six stages to the life cycle. The fly lays about 250 eggs, which are first stage larva in 23 hours, at about 130 hours thay are at 5th stage larva and ready to hatch to new flies at 143 hours, this is at about 70 degrees F. So it takes about 6 days to be egg to fly again. There were flies and maggots in the trunk at 31 days.

If a person was killed in a home, blow flies wouldn't come in minutes, unless they were present in the home. If the body was put in a bag, plastic could they get in? If the body were in the back yard, there would have been the presents of larva at the least when the dogs hit. They may have been dead larva but wouldn't it still be there? Some evidence of blow fly larva?

How many cylce lived off the decomposition fluid on the bag and the stain on the carpet? At least 5 cycles if you divide 6 days into 31 you get 5.16 cycles. So if this is the case, wouldn't KC have been driving around with flies and maggotts in her car once the bag broke and fluid leaked out. This may have been the reason the she needed bug spray and clorox. If Caylee died on June 16th, placed in a bag, and it broke at 2.6 days - just at June 19th that would make the stain and decomposition draw the flies at June 19th. Six days later is June 24th and you get a whole new batch, and June 27th she runs out of gas. By July 15th the flys and maggotts are still present in the trunk.

Is this possible? Or are the stages speeded up because of the higher degree factor in the heat, sun, closed enviroment in the trunk and body in plastic?

The FBI did not find that decomposition occurred in the trunk. The bug evidence is not dispositive of anything sinister.

 

[c'monalready]

I remember this subject being discussed a while back. Interesting stuff here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69646&highlight=life+cycle+flies

 

[Skully]

I remember this subject being discussed a while back. Interesting stuff here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69646&highlight=life+cycle+flies

Thank you, that helps because I joined in Oct and never saw this discussion. It is very much where my line of thinking is going.

 

[kgeaux]

The FBI did not find that decomposition occurred in the trunk. The bug evidence is not dispositive of anything sinister.

That's true. The FBI results said the chemicals found in the trunk come from decomp POSSIBLY of human origin.

Also, Wudge, unless I am mistaken, I don't think it has ever been confirmed that the maggots were BLOW FLY maggots. Is that right?

 

[forensicbuff5747]

"Wudge....The FBI did not find that decomposition occurred in the trunk. The bug evidence is not dispositive of anything sinister. "
um...the FBI didnt say decomp didnt occur in trunk. they found caylee's hair which showed decomp in the TRUNK!

 

[RR0004]

That's true. The FBI results said the chemicals found in the trunk come from decomp POSSIBLY of human origin.

Also, Wudge, unless I am mistaken, I don't think it has ever been confirmed that the maggots were BLOW FLY maggots. Is that right?

All reports were preliminary and everyone will find out, I'm sure, at trial.

 

[Wudge]

That's true. The FBI results said the chemicals found in the trunk come from decomp POSSIBLY of human origin.

Also, Wudge, unless I am mistaken, I don't think it has ever been confirmed that the maggots were BLOW FLY maggots. Is that right?

Are far as I know that is true.

 

[Wudge]

"Wudge....The FBI did not find that decomposition occurred in the trunk. The bug evidence is not dispositive of anything sinister. "
um...the FBI didnt say decomp didnt occur in trunk. they found caylee's hair which showed decomp in the TRUNK!

As best I know, the FBI didn't say that it found Caylee's hair in the trunk.

As for the FBI not saying that decomposition did not occur in the trunk (the defense would love you), that is fundamentally useless given the State is required to "prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt".

 

[kgeaux]

All reports were preliminary and everyone will find out, I'm sure, at trial.

Yes. So, until then, can we say the maggots were blow fly maggots? Or that the FBI stated that human decomposition was found in the trunk?

I don't think we can.

"Wudge....The FBI did not find that decomposition occurred in the trunk. The bug evidence is not dispositive of anything sinister. "
um...the FBI didnt say decomp didnt occur in trunk. they found caylee's hair which showed decomp in the TRUNK!

Oh, wow. The FBI didn't say that aliens came down from the Planet Zeno and killed Caylee while dressed up like a nanny, either! Failure to say something isn't evidence!

Also, the hair has not been identified as Caylee's. It is a hair with a "death band" (not sure if that has even been accepted in all 50 states as reliable evidence!) that shares the same MtDNA as Cindy's mother, Cindy, Casey, Lee and Caylee. The bulb of the hair has been preserved and has never been tested for nuclear DNA which would definitively say it came from Caylee. (When did Cindy's mom die, BTW? Does anyone know if Cindy perhaps cut a lock of hair from her momma before she was buried? LOL, it sounds weird, but without nuclear DNA, that's what the prosecution is facing!)

 

[RR0004]

Yes. So, until then, can we say the maggots were blow fly maggots? Or that the FBI stated that human decomposition was found in the trunk?

I don't think we can.

All we can do is speculate. Caylee has been found so I'll make a giant leap of faith and say that it was HER hair. I wish it wasn't so, but...

ETA: you're not saying that Casey was carting around an animal in her trunk, are you? That would be a new one on me.

 

[Insomnia Momma]

Yes. So, until then, can we say the maggots were blow fly maggots? Or that the FBI stated that human decomposition was found in the trunk?

I don't think we can.



Oh, wow. The FBI didn't say that aliens came down from the Planet Zeno and killed Caylee while dressed up like a nanny, either! Failure to say something isn't evidence!

Also, the hair has not been identified as Caylee's. It is a hair with a "death band" (not sure if that has even been accepted in all 50 states as reliable evidence!) that shares the same MtDNA as Cindy's mother, Cindy, Casey, Lee and Caylee. The bulb of the hair has been preserved and has never been tested for nuclear DNA which would definitively say it came from Caylee. (When did Cindy's mom die, BTW? Does anyone know if Cindy perhaps cut a lock of hair from her momma before she was buried? LOL, it sounds weird, but without nuclear DNA, that's what the prosecution is facing!)

Umm... Cindy's mom isn't dead. She lives in Mt. Dora about a block from the nursing home her husband is in.

Since Casey, Cindy, Shirley (Cindy's mom) and Lee are all ALIVE one can deduce that it was Caylee's hair. No one else is dead or missing.