Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

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I've also read the leeches have been used to clean wounds - I think it had to do with the cases of flesh eating bacteria.

Anyway, Casey couldn't use the freezer at the house while the A's were gone because Lee had access to the place, right? There were few places she could deposit Caylee except in the woods....she may have placed her there for a few days, then returned, placed her in the trunk and then moved her to Suburban/Chicksaw area. It could have been at that point that she used the next trash bag (but could/would she do this alone?).

There was a case a few years ago in CA, I forget the murderer/rapist' name - began with a W who lived next door to a family. He went in the house during the night and transported her (a young 7-8 year old girl) with his RV. I think an Entimologist determined time of death from the insects. I wonder if they'll call on him or have already asked for his expertise.
 
bump up very good reading thanks for everyone's input
 
I know I have seen where pupa were collected and sent for analysis-however, we have not ever seen those results. I have never seen where actual maggots were collected and tested. You would think if there were a bag full of maggots, as Cindy has stated, that some of those would have been collected. And if the trunk were full of maggots then why were none of them there by the time LE examined the vehicle-which was less than 24 hours after the 911 calls. Who cleaned out the trunk and removed ALL those maggots that WERE once present?
 
CA and/or George cleaned the trunk, IMO. Remember, Annie stated that these people cleaned 24/7, and LA said his father liked to detail the cars. They are clean freaks, the trunk stunk to high heaven, and they were starting to realize they needed to cover up for KC. Not a doubt in my mind this is what happened, and if there were any maggots left in the truck, they would have been few and far between. I think most of the maggots probably came from the trash bag, which was retrieved from the tow yard dumpster.
 
Georgia PI said:
This is an excellent article on the subject of maggots and how valuable they can be in determining causes and time lines in death, particularly in the case of Caylee Anthony, and the comment made by Cindy Anthony. I was amazed at her knowledge and could see how valuable this knowledge can be in death investigations.

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2009/05/dissecting-cindy-anthonys-statement.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link,
Snipped from article, gross but very informative and relevant to death investigations, i agree.

"Also, DNA analysis of the maggots can be done to determine just who were they feasting on. Yes, human DNA can be extracted from maggot guts to identify the body."
 
Thank you, Georgia PI for the link. I was curious as to whether or not human DNA could be extracted from maggots. If maggots were found in the trunk, I think that enough time had passed that they couldn't be first generation. Would the second generation (pupa of the flies that were originally present as maggots) still contain the same DNA? I hope so.
 
Interesting quote from Dr. Baden in this article:
http://www.hbo.com/autopsy/baden/qa_8.html

And sometimes we can tell by the types of flies and maggots that settle on the body whether it's been moved from an indoor location to an outdoor one. For example, if a person is killed and put into the trunk of a car, flies should not be able to get to the body. So, If we find maggots on the body in the trunk of the car, we know that the person died outside of that trunk -- someplace where flies could get to the body and lay eggs on it -- and then put into the trunk afterwards. If the person dies in the trunk or has died and then been placed immediately in the trunk, there shouldn't be any flies or maggots on him.
Click to expand...

So if Caylee had been placed in the trunk alive, died there, and then was later removed, there would have been no maggots/flies in the trunk. At some point her body was exposed enough to attract flies before it was placed in the trunk.

My notes (no links sorry) show: (1) report of live adult flies flying out of trunk July 15 at tow yard--not sure if this was stated by George or by tow yard guy, (2) vial of "maggots" and vial of "pupa" sent to forensic examiner according to quotes from discovery cited in Baez's Motion for Sanctions when he complains he has received no forensic reports.

I have tried to fit this evidence in with the timeline to determine time of death and time of dumping, but it appears that without knowing the species of fly it is pretty much impossible to figure out these questions. But the forensic experts ought to be able to determine the species. Once they know the species, they should be able to figure out lots of interesting information, such as season of death (to counteract the theory that Caylee was killed and her body dumped by the kidnapper in the late fall rather than by KC in the summer), freshness of the body at the time the eggs were deposited (i.e., just after death vs. later in the process), stages of decomp during which the body was in an enclosed space or wrapped and thus unavailable to insects, and even the time of day that the eggs were deposited.
 
AZlawyer said:
Interesting quote from Dr. Baden in this article:
http://www.hbo.com/autopsy/baden/qa_8.html



So if Caylee had been placed in the trunk alive, died there, and then was later removed, there would have been no maggots/flies in the trunk. At some point her body was exposed enough to attract flies before it was placed in the trunk.

My notes (no links sorry) show: (1) report of live adult flies flying out of trunk July 15 at tow yard--not sure if this was stated by George or by tow yard guy, (2) vial of "maggots" and vial of "pupa" sent to forensic examiner according to quotes from discovery cited in Baez's Motion for Sanctions when he complains he has received no forensic reports.

I have tried to fit this evidence in with the timeline to determine time of death and time of dumping, but it appears that without knowing the species of fly it is pretty much impossible to figure out these questions. But the forensic experts ought to be able to determine the species. Once they know the species, they should be able to figure out lots of interesting information, such as season of death (to counteract the theory that Caylee was killed and her body dumped by the kidnapper in the late fall rather than by KC in the summer), freshness of the body at the time the eggs were deposited (i.e., just after death vs. later in the process), stages of decomp during which the body was in an enclosed space or wrapped and thus unavailable to insects, and even the time of day that the eggs were deposited.
Click to expand...

Another possibility to consider is that KC had backed the Pontiac into the garage on three occasions. On the 18th she likely carried the body into the backyard with the intent of burying it with the neighbor's shovel. This could be when any flies were picked up. It is also possible that during the time the trunk was open in the garage and the body was in the trunk any flies from the garage could have found their way to the body.

The last thing to consider is that the flies may have come from the trash bag. While it did not contain a lot of rotting garbage it did contain empty food containers which may have had some residue on them, as well as empty soda and beer cans that probably had some sugary residue in them. The maggots and pupae sent to the entomologist were in fact collected from the bag - at least some of it from inside the bag (some may have been outside as well).
 
Maybe this has been asked/answered already...but does anyone know what
LP is referring to when he talks about "turpins" or "terpins" etc. found
in the trunk?
 
Here is an interesting link to some info on pupa, which is actually a maggot that has fed and is ready to produce a fly. SO if there were pupa found, which we KNOW their were because we have seen those were sent for testing-at least 2 of them I believe, then IF those had fed on anything associated with Caylee's body then that is going to show inside the pupa when analyzed. So where are those reports? If the FBI is still holding the reports, then perhaps that is a way for the State NOT to hand those over to Baez? If they do not have them in hand then how can they possibly hand them over. Anyhow, it seems from the blowfly laying her eggs to the fly hatching out takes somewhere in the vicinity of 19 or 20 days. So if flies came out of the trunk, they would have to have been a second generation than the original ones which were laid on ther body. Is that correct? Is it possible that when Casey had the trunk open one of those times, perhaps during disposal, that a new batch of eggs were laid and those are the flies that emerged at the tow yard? Apparently temperature can speed up or slow down the process, so in the burning Florida heat inside of a trunk, it is very possible that the process was shortened...

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/flies/maggots.htm
 
What has me puzzled about the maggots and flies is I don't know if any DNA can be detected after 2nd generation.

The body had to be in the trunk for a long time though. The last flies and maggots were very small. They did not have enough food to grow to their normal size.

Generations may have been sped up by intense heat. So they could be on 4th generation when found. Don't know if they cannibilize when food source is gone.
 
wallflower67 said:
perhaps flies/maggots were brought in by the body, and when the body was removed, they used the remaining garbage as food to continue the life cycle?
Click to expand...

My guess is that they'd go to the decomp stain.
 
Quote: MY QUESTION WAS ABOUT MAGOTTS
Originally Posted by Patty G (in list of questions -no discussion)
Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology
LINK


My Reply:
You are awesome Patty...Thank you
This link was very informative I got lost reading it....
But my questions pertain to me being eager to hear from the lab that tested them.

HOWEVER; after reading this, link should I assume that since they were 2nd generation maggots,
that Caylees DNA would not be in them? Or should I assume that we just do not have the LAB results.

I am imagining that 2nd generation maggots may not have the evidence.
Because if they had the SURE evidence then we should proceed and get on with this dance get the
court geared up, we are all tired of this.

I just went back to that thread and read much further on it seems that,
THE report I am interested in has not yet been seen.
Mystery solved

OH...one more thing, I assume there wont be the test results we want to hear, it may be more then 2nd generation???

GESHHH!!!!! I wanted to hear they have a DIRECT link to KC.
 
Heres an interesting article I found.

Department of Justice Sciences, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 35294, USA.

During the course of our forensic investigations, we have encountered situations where it would have been useful to have evidence, other than direct contact between the two, for concluding that a carrion-fly maggot developed on a particular human victim. If a maggot collected during a death investigation did not develop on the victim, then its age is not relevant to estimating the postmortem interval. In this study we demonstrate that mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data can be obtained from the dissected gut of a maggot that had fed on human tissue. These data can be used to identify both the human corpse upon which the maggot had been feeding and the species of the maggot itself.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11373008?dopt=Abstract
 
Heres another....

Did you know that one tiny maggot can determine the cause of a person's death?

Not only that -- a maggot can also reveal the time of death, identify any poisons or drugs present in a deceased body and even help track the movement of vehicles used in crimes and the possibility of child abuse.

http://media.uow.edu.au/news/2005/0113a/
 
It isn't just the insects you do find that is important. Sometimes the insects you DON'T find tell a story.


From the e-mails between OCSO and the Body Farm:
Mike, forgot to mention something in my last email. I FINALLY got a call back from Dr. Neal Haskell, my entomologist friend, and he said that the ‘fruit flies’ may really be coffin flies and that might be significant. He said that if you still have them to please send them to him at the following address and he will check them out.
​
Coffin flies are called "coffin" flies because they can manipulate themselves through small crevices and spaces to get to a body--even bodies that are underground in coffins. Blow flies and house flies, which are usually the first to get to dead body, can't. Unless Caylee was sealed up in the trunk before she died or shortly afterward, blow flies would have laid eggs on her body. That's why not finding any signs of blow flies and house flies would be of significance.

Here's an aticle about a case that was solved by Dr. Haskell because there were "coffin flies" and NO "blow flies": http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html?_r=2&hp&ex=&ei=&partner=
 
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