Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[wallflower67]

Yes. So, until then, can we say the maggots were blow fly maggots? Or that the FBI stated that human decomposition was found in the trunk?

I don't think we can.



Oh, wow. The FBI didn't say that aliens came down from the Planet Zeno and killed Caylee while dressed up like a nanny, either! Failure to say something isn't evidence!

Also, the hair has not been identified as Caylee's. It is a hair with a "death band" (not sure if that has even been accepted in all 50 states as reliable evidence!) that shares the same MtDNA as Cindy's mother, Cindy, Casey, Lee and Caylee. The bulb of the hair has been preserved and has never been tested for nuclear DNA which would definitively say it came from Caylee. (When did Cindy's mom die, BTW? Does anyone know if Cindy perhaps cut a lock of hair from her momma before she was buried? LOL, it sounds weird, but without nuclear DNA, that's what the prosecution is facing!)

Cindy's mom is still alive. Caylee is the only one unaccounted for that could have this mtDNA in her hair.

 

[kgeaux]

All we can do is speculate. Caylee has been found so I'll make a giant leap of faith and say that it was HER hair. I wish it wasn't so, but...

ETA: you're not saying that Casey was carting around an animal in her trunk, are you? That would be a new one on me.

I'm not against speculation, but I see over and over mention being made of the FBI saying the hair was Caylee's, that the FBI report found that human decomp occured in the trunk, that blow fly maggots were in the trunk......


I guess what I'm saying is the hair (while probably Caylee's) has never been definitively identified as Caylee's. That the FBI could not definitely attribute the cause of the decomp odor to human origins. That, while there were maggots, we have no idea if the maggots were of the type to prove decomposition was occuring in the trunk.

All of the above may well prove to be true. Or not. I just want people to remember that this case is still open, the evidence is still fluid, the prosecution has not found its "slam dunk" evidence yet.

And , now that you mention it, :blowkiss: certain of the chemicals found in the air samples could have been from animal and not human decomp.

(Doesn't have to be a dead animal, necessarily. It could've been a raw pork roast.)

 

[kgeaux]

Cindy's mom is still alive. Caylee is the only one unaccounted for that could have this mtDNA in her hair.

How about Cindy's sisters? Her grandmother?

Y'all need to understand that I personally believe the hair is from Caylee, I personally believe in the death band evidence BUT LE cannot come out right now and say that the hair "is" Caylee's, because they have not done nuclear DNA. And that is an opening for the defense. If any relative decended from Cindy's grandmother, etc, has died, if any lock of hair from that relative was cut, that is a huge opening for the defense.

I'd like to see the evidence MUCH TIGHTER than it is right now.

 

[flnana]

I don't know why this is bothering me, but I decided to look up the life cycle of blow flies. I read that within minutes blow flies decend on a dead body, going to the natural openings and wounds of a dead body. They have six stages to the life cycle. The fly lays about 250 eggs, which are first stage larva in 23 hours, at about 130 hours thay are at 5th stage larva and ready to hatch to new flies at 143 hours, this is at about 70 degrees F. So it takes about 6 days to be egg to fly again. There were flies and maggots in the trunk at 31 days.

If a person was killed in a home, blow flies wouldn't come in minutes, unless they were present in the home. If the body was put in a bag, plastic could they get in? If the body were in the back yard, there would have been the presents of larva at the least when the dogs hit. They may have been dead larva but wouldn't it still be there? Some evidence of blow fly larva?

How many cylce lived off the decomposition fluid on the bag and the stain on the carpet? At least 5 cycles if you divide 6 days into 31 you get 5.16 cycles. So if this is the case, wouldn't KC have been driving around with flies and maggotts in her car once the bag broke and fluid leaked out. This may have been the reason the she needed bug spray and clorox. If Caylee died on June 16th, placed in a bag, and it broke at 2.6 days - just at June 19th that would make the stain and decomposition draw the flies at June 19th. Six days later is June 24th and you get a whole new batch, and June 27th she runs out of gas. By July 15th the flys and maggotts are still present in the trunk.

Is this possible? Or are the stages speeded up because of the higher degree factor in the heat, sun, closed enviroment in the trunk and body in plastic?

Could you get any evidence from dead flies or maggots? I'm referring to DNA or anything like that which would prove that Caylee was in the trunk? I believe she was in the trunk and I read back in August that they could determine the stage and what they had been feeding on, but I don't remember anything about the dead flies. Do any of you have any info on this or can you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

 

[eddeva]

Could you get any evidence from dead flies or maggots? I'm referring to DNA or anything like that which would prove that Caylee was in the trunk?

if you follow the link given a few posts up you'll find the answer to be yes iirc.

 

[eddeva]

the prosecution has not found its "slam dunk" evidence yet.

how can we be sure??

 

[RR0004]

Umm... Cindy's mom isn't dead. She lives in Mt. Dora about a block from the nursing home her husband is in.

Since Casey, Cindy, Shirley (Cindy's mom) and Lee are all ALIVE one can deduce that it was Caylee's hair. No one else is dead or missing.

Thanks...that was once upon a time a shorter post otherwise I would have responded sooner. SP is very much alive and grieving, no doubt.

 

[RR0004]

How about Cindy's sisters? Her grandmother?

Y'all need to understand that I personally believe the hair is from Caylee, I personally believe in the death band evidence BUT LE cannot come out right now and say that the hair "is" Caylee's, because they have not done nuclear DNA. And that is an opening for the defense. If any relative decended from Cindy's grandmother, etc, has died, if any lock of hair from that relative was cut, that is a huge opening for the defense.

I'd like to see the evidence MUCH TIGHTER than it is right now.

Not to worry.

BTW-I don't think CA has a sister either (But I know what you're saying).

 

[kgeaux]

how can we be sure??

The prosecution was thrown into a tizzy when Caylee's body was found; they were sent right back to square one. I think we may even see some charges changed as (new) evidence gets analyzed, but that's just an opinion, and assumes that something they took from the home actually IS evidence.

 

[flnana]

if you follow the link given a few posts up you'll find the answer to be yes iirc.

Thanks, the threads were merged between when I posted and when I came back and read.

 

[cocoamom]

I remember two doc dumps ago that we were upset here at WS because we knew they took carpeting that had the "stain" on it but they did NOT release the test results...THOSE results will answer the questions about decomp in the trunk...

Through process of elimination, we WSers determined that the hair MOST LIKELY is Caylee's - unless another Anthony female is deemed missing (and I suppose that is entirely possible given KC's knack for hiding pregnancies from her family). The process of elimination: Shirley is alive, Cindy is alive, KC is alive - all Anthony females with the MtDNA accounted for and alive EXCEPT Caylee - hair has "death band" therefore - hair donor was dead when hair fell into trunk...pretty simple math if you ask me - no doubt in my mind - reasonable or not!!

 

[Chilly Willy]

I remember two doc dumps ago that we were upset here at WS because we knew they took carpeting that had the "stain" on it but they did NOT release the test results...THOSE results will answer the questions about decomp in the trunk...

Through process of elimination, we WSers determined that the hair MOST LIKELY is Caylee's - unless another Anthony female is deemed missing (and I suppose that is entirely possible given KC's knack for hiding pregnancies from her family). The process of elimination: Shirley is alive, Cindy is alive, KC is alive - all Anthony females with the MtDNA accounted for and alive EXCEPT Caylee - hair has "death band" therefore - hair donor was dead when hair fell into trunk...pretty simple math if you ask me - no doubt in my mind - reasonable or not!!

Additional hairs that were found in the trunk but did not show signs of decomp were sent for nuclear DNA testing. We have not seen those results yet either but it's likely they will be Caylee's, further supporting the belief that the 'death band' hair is hers.

 

[Rumpole]

I have a couple of maggot/fly questions, probably already answered but I haven't found answers yet.

1. Temperature/trunk conditions: How tolerant are flies at various life stages to temperature and lack of ventilation? What temperature and for how long will they survive?

1.1. Is there any info/reference to what sort of temperatures would arise in the trunk of a white car in Florida?

2. Were the maggots in the garbage bag or outside? Was the garbage sealed or at least tied?

2.1. I accept that the smell was from human decomposition and not garbage, but were the maggots primarily from garbage? Kitchen waste and stray flies might easily be infested?

 

[JWG]

I have a couple of maggot/fly questions, probably already answered but I haven't found answers yet.

1. Temperature/trunk conditions: How tolerant are flies at various life stages to temperature and lack of ventilation? What temperature and for how long will they survive?

1.1. Is there any info/reference to what sort of temperatures would arise in the trunk of a white car in Florida?

2. Were the maggots in the garbage bag or outside? Was the garbage sealed or at least tied?

2.1. I accept that the smell was from human decomposition and not garbage but were the maggots primarily from garbage? Kitchen waste and stray flies might easily be infested?

Try this page and this post (note two different threads).

 

[Rumpole]

Try this page and this post (note two different threads).

Thanks!
Point 1. sorted

 

[wallflower67]

perhaps flies/maggots were brought in by the body, and when the body was removed, they used the remaining garbage as food to continue the life cycle?

 

[kgeaux]

I remember two doc dumps ago that we were upset here at WS because we knew they took carpeting that had the "stain" on it but they did NOT release the test results...THOSE results will answer the questions about decomp in the trunk...

Through process of elimination, we WSers determined that the hair MOST LIKELY is Caylee's - unless another Anthony female is deemed missing (and I suppose that is entirely possible given KC's knack for hiding pregnancies from her family). The process of elimination: Shirley is alive, Cindy is alive, KC is alive - all Anthony females with the MtDNA accounted for and alive EXCEPT Caylee - hair has "death band" therefore - hair donor was dead when hair fell into trunk...pretty simple math if you ask me - no doubt in my mind - reasonable or not!!

I agree that it is reasonable for us to deduct that the hair was Caylee's by the process of elimination. However, without nuclear DNA, it can never be stated as a certainty. That's just science.

Additional hairs that were found in the trunk but did not show signs of decomp were sent for nuclear DNA testing. We have not seen those results yet either but it's likely they will be Caylee's, further supporting the belief that the 'death band' hair is hers.

Chilly, could you flesh out what you mean for me? I am thinking that if additional hairs do NOT show evidence of decomp, defense has one more opening.

 

[karma-girl]

I know the maggots intestines can be tested for the victims DNA as well as any drugs that may have been in the body...is anyone aware of them testing these maggots from the dumpster and if so, how long would the drug/DNA evidence remain in the maggot or fly. Please forgive me if this has been already been adressed.

Happy & Healthy New Year to all of you!

 

[Pink Panther]

I know the maggots intestines can be tested for the victims DNA as well as any drugs that may have been in the body...is anyone aware of them testing these maggots from the dumpster and if so, how long would the drug/DNA evidence remain in the maggot or fly. Please forgive me if this has been already been adressed.

Happy & Healthy New Year to all of you!

karma-girl - A lot of us are very curious about this and have been waiting to see if/when potential additional test results will be released. Many of us have asked the same questions but unfortunately, we don't know yet whether they managed to test the maggots and/or find anything!

MOO

 

[Nore]

I have a couple of maggot/fly questions, probably already answered but I haven't found answers yet.

1. Temperature/trunk conditions: How tolerant are flies at various life stages to temperature and lack of ventilation? What temperature and for how long will they survive?

1.1. Is there any info/reference to what sort of temperatures would arise in the trunk of a white car in Florida?

2. Were the maggots in the garbage bag or outside? Was the garbage sealed or at least tied?

2.1. I accept that the smell was from human decomposition and not garbage but were the maggots primarily from garbage? Kitchen waste and stray flies might easily be infested?

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Try going to the BodyFarm web site,they have a lot on maggots ,other insects.It is a very interesting read.I dont think they mentioned if the garbage was tied. The Farm has a write up about Caylee.