Genetic Issues and the FLDS

I have to confess, this seems supportive of my theory that Jeffs is a closet pedo that is attracted to boys. How better to hide the fact that he is a pedo than by many wives- most of whom are caretaker wives. Sort of like the old days when a closet gay guy might marry to hide his sexual inclinations.

Was it Jeffs who declared that the "holy underwear" was to be worn during sex?
While the FLDS Undergarment is more "extensive" than in the mainstream LDS, ALL married LDS members are supposed to wear a shorter, less restrictive (like shorty pajamas) undergarment - and yes, many LDS members wear theirs during sex as well - it's felt to be "protective" in nature. ALL the FLDS does is make the undergarment cover more (more like REAL long underwear) and make ALL members wear it 24/7 including the children.

The undergarment is from mainstream LDS, the FLDS just took it to the extreme - like they seem to do with a LOT of things. And in mainstream LDS, you only HAVE to start wearing the undergarment when you marry. If you look closely at a married Mormon man or woman, you can often see the outline of the undergarment under their clothing and since it goes on UNDER every other clothing item, it does restrict them to very modest attire (so as not to "show" the any part of the undergarment). Ladies in particular can find it difficult - no sleeveless clothing, no swimsuits, no cleavage, no shorter shorts etc.

The FLDS has turned it into a fabric chastity belt and made it SO restrictive that the poor women MUST wear those long-sleeved, buttoned to the chin, ill fitting, down to the ankles dresses with PANTS underneath so as NOT to show their undergarment (the pants under the dress are so as to not show the undergarment if the dress lifts above the ankles by accident).

It's one of the tenets of the LDS faith I find most odd, but hey, each to their own, I just couldn't (wouldn't) wear it, and I am not a person who dresses in a revealing way. I am probably equally well covered 90% of the time anyway but I do wear tank tops, shorts, swimsuits and things like that... I live in Texas - the land of 105 every day for 3 months of the year and sleeveless tops are almost required casual wear. Those poor FLDS folks must be VERY heat tolerant - it's got to be unbearable working outdoors in that many clothes (and layers) when it's 105 out.

My Opinion
 
What statistics is that?
I was rereading your post about OI, and if Barlow is saying that that many of the children have brittle bone disease and yet medical exams show that's not the case, I mean, maybe I'm muddled here and need to reread it again, but the statistics don't match what he's saying. There's been boys who've suffered broken bones while operating heavy equipment, and some of them were teen or pre-teen, but CPS is saying they were very young children. What's the odds that 41 children would have OI in one segment of the population?
 
Flowerchild, I dress fairly modestly but I know I couldn't tolerate wearing that. Can you imagine going through menopause and hot flashes wearing the extreme version??
 
I was rereading your post about OI, and if Barlow is saying that that many of the children have brittle bone disease and yet medical exams show that's not the case, I mean, maybe I'm muddled here and need to reread it again, but the statistics don't match what he's saying. There's been boys who've suffered broken bones while operating heavy equipment, and some of them were teen or pre-teen, but CPS is saying they were very young children. What's the odds that 41 children would have OI in one segment of the population?

I haven't seen where CPS has either verified or denied the OI. Yes, the statistics show that it is an extremely rare condition. But it is a genetic disease and if it was introduced into the genetic pool, the alleged incest would give them a higher rate of OI. Since the FLDS allegedly didn't report things to the public health department, then any inflicted here wouldn't be counted in the overall statistics.

And it is possible. The word got out about the fumerase (sp) disease and medical doctors were asking questions about why the FLDS has such a high rate. So if/once the OI was found in the FLDS population, I think it is likely they would try to hide it.

Basically I think it is one of those wait and see things. Yes, it is possible they have it. But yes, it could also be a lie. And yes, it could be a case of malpractice- a doctor who doesn't know what he is doing. If he set a bone and it didn't heal correctly, he could blame it on OI. His patient's parents aren't likely to get a second opinion.
 
Flowerchild, I dress fairly modestly but I know I couldn't tolerate wearing that. Can you imagine going through menopause and hot flashes wearing the extreme version??

All those clothes and all that HAIR - OH MY! And I know 'bout hot flashes - and even for a cold natured person like me - well I think I'd be passing out daily with heat stroke! They'd have to give me a job in the walk-in freezer! It seems unbearable - and I see it as just another way to control and "punish", and subjugate women while removing any power they might gain from their appearance. So a pretty one doesn't stand out, you have to make all woman really ugly.

My Opinion
 
I don't know much about DNA, so I have the following questions for anyone who knows:

Since Warren Jeffs is in prison, his DNA is on file, right? When the DNA results come back in on all of the children, if he is the father of any of them, it can be determined by comparing to his DNA, right?

On the 462 children - whether DNA is or is not available from either parent, the DNA of each of them can be compared to all the others. Would that determine which of the children have the same father? Which have the same mother?

I think the reason you don't see any of the men is that they have run away to hide somewhere so that nobody can get their DNA. I also think it is going to turn out that probably 5 or 10 men fathered all of the 462 kids.

The TV footage of the crying women, designed to garner public sympathy, is having the opposite effect on some of us. They set my teet on edge every time I see the footage. Espeically the uni-brow girl.

The crying mothers may have gotten public sympathy in 1953 during the Short Creek raid, but it is a different time and place all these years later.
The physical and sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated in the name of "religion" no matter how many women in long dresses stand around and cry!

Last but not least, has anyone but me noticed how a lot of the women look alike? There is one shot with about 10 or so of them sitting there in two rows in blue dresses. Look at their noses, look at their foreheads.
 
I'm not sure I am saying this exactly correctly, so if I am not, please be gentle. I know what I need to ask, but it is so strange to me that it is hard to find the words.

One of the many things which puzzles me about the FLDS vs the LDS is the disparity of education of at least the valued members, the males.
I do not want to stereotype but all the LDS members I have known who are in the workplace have a high level of education and an extremely productive work ethic. They stand out because of their excellence in many places I have worked... One only had to pay attention for a bit to realize that they were LDS because of the no caffeine, calling each other Brother and Sister, etc..( The LDS women I knew were past child-rearing age, the men were of all ages).

Now, to the FLDS.
WHY are the FLDS men against the younger men, at least, getting educations? How exactly do they support their communal style of living? Do they recruit wealthy men into the promise of virginal brides forever more, then empty their bank accounts? Exactly how are they self-supporting with so many members and no education to produce skilled workers?

The LDS do not believe in social welfare programs. They have storehouses and canneries and clothing storage facilites, furniture, housing, you name it for members in time of temporary need. And I know it is temporary, because of their work ethic and personal ethics and church mandate to take care of their families and personal needs so well. Mormons are the best prepared people on the planet for food shortages if they practice the Word of Wisdom and have a year's supply of food for each family member.

It is a basic tenet that every society which has flourished has increased in knowledge and wisdom from generation to generation. The flow of education and learning does NOT go backwards in civilized societies. In today's society in industrialized nations, this means that children go to school, from kindergarten through 4 years of college, at least. Education has made millionaires out of paupers, has created scientists and fostered brillance in all disciplines and arts. Education has created lives of equity and equality for those who started out as disadvantaged.

Why are the male FLDS children and teenagers not valued as the future leaders?
Why do the male FLDS children not receive formal education? I can wrap my mind around the sexual deviancy a bit better because of everything I have read here at WS and in the news, etc. Deprativy is rampant in our world, whether in a relgious cult or a man who locks his daughter in a closet and she bears his seven children over many years.. We all have read the sickness.

One thing that I have not seen addressed, and I mean NO disrespect, but if Warren Jeffs had the early physical problems he is said to have, and if he has propogated all these incestuous families under his wing, then isn't there a possiblity that a great percentage of the third and fourth generation children who were taken from the compound are mentally retarded or otherwise mentally handicapped, as can certainly rapidly occur with the genetic Fumarase deficiency?
Is it legal for the state of Texas to test the chidren's mental capabilites and IQ?

I have read statements several times from Texas CPS workers that " These children could not survive in the outside world", which now, after reading this thread about genetic diseases, causes me to think that they do not mean cannot adapt due to cultural differences.
Perhaps they are referring to what they see but we cannot--- that they lack the mental capacity for learning, which is necessary for survival of the individual.

It would maybe partially explain why the children are used and abused, and not even given individual identities by human beings who gave them life.. they are expected to die.
Maybe so many children die from disease that this generation of adults has been told not to bond with their children? I know of no other civilization which does not and has not valued its offspring. Animals will abandon a deformed or inactive offspring. It seems that the FLDS operate on an animalistic level rather than a humanistic level.
Is it possible that many of the FLDS children are deemed unworthy of basic loving because the genetic diseases have caused physical and mental problems? That they are deemed to be deficient in the eyes of the males who produced them and are given to the women to deal with? IF a percentage of them do have an inborn error of metabolism, which the fumarase deficiency is, then mental abilities are affected very early in life. If they have Osteogenesis Imperfecta then they are not able to perform daily tasks or bear children. Read up on it. There are degrees of bone involvement, but if it is the most severe form where both parents have the gene, then there's no way the female children with the disease could bear a child, if she lived to the age of puberty. All of this is so foreign and certainly repugnant to me, but I am trying to understand how any sort of closed sect can survive if the male children, at least, are not given advantages, status, education..

Maybe the genetic diseases and deficiencies have been problems in polygamous cults for a longer time than we can imagine due to the secrecy. Everything about them is secretive because of the law-breaking polygamy.
I don't know what the situation is with the children and women in Texas, and it's probably something we will not know due to the HiPAA act, but someone knows something.. the women who left know.
If you are interested in the FLDS cult, I would love to read your opinion based on what is written here, and what has been officially stated by Tx CPS about the very young women and the children not being able to survive outside their native environment.

Maria
 
AlwaysShocked, I don't know what criteria Utah uses on collecting DNA. In some states it is only sex offenders and violent crimes who give their DNA, in other states they collect DNA on anyone who has committed a felony. But yes, if they have his DNA, and if Utah agrees to give it up they can compare his DNA to all of the children.

I would assume (which really means a guess) that if they receive a DNA from a male FLDS they will compare it to all the kids since they have had so much trouble with lying about parentage.

As far as them all looking alike, many of them are thought to have the same or close genetic heiritage. In other words, common genes which would cause certain traits to show up in all of them.
 
Some articles have commented upon the high foreheads and ruddy faces and those they say are a result of inbreeding of close relatives.

If the authorities in Texas need Jeffs DNA a court order could achieve that.

SeekingJana, the reason they don't allow higher education for either boys or girls is that knowledge, education empowers a person. In addition, the boys are competition for the older geezers. If a young boy is paying court to a young girl his age, the older guy with umpteen wives isn't going to be as appealing. So the older men remove the younger so they have a clear field. More girls for them, none for the boys, except for those they groom to take over once they're doddering or in the grave.

There are those who left the FLDS with very little education who have gone on to regain their education by attending high school or college and have done very well. Those who left are closely related to those in Texas as well as those left in Colorado City and Hilldale.
 
I'm not sure I am saying this exactly correctly, so if I am not, please be gentle. I know what I need to ask, but it is so strange to me that it is hard to find the words.

One of the many things which puzzles me about the FLDS vs the LDS is the disparity of education of at least the valued members, the males.
I do not want to stereotype but all the LDS members I have known who are in the workplace have a high level of education and an extremely productive work ethic. They stand out because of their excellence in many places I have worked... One only had to pay attention for a bit to realize that they were LDS because of the no caffeine, calling each other Brother and Sister, etc..( The LDS women I knew were past child-rearing age, the men were of all ages).

Now, to the FLDS.
WHY are the FLDS men against the younger men, at least, getting educations? How exactly do they support their communal style of living? Do they recruit wealthy men into the promise of virginal brides forever more, then empty their bank accounts? Exactly how are they self-supporting with so many members and no education to produce skilled workers?

The LDS do not believe in social welfare programs. They have storehouses and canneries and clothing storage facilites, furniture, housing, you name it for members in time of temporary need. And I know it is temporary, because of their work ethic and personal ethics and church mandate to take care of their families and personal needs so well. Mormons are the best prepared people on the planet for food shortages if they practice the Word of Wisdom and have a year's supply of food for each family member.

It is a basic tenet that every society which has flourished has increased in knowledge and wisdom from generation to generation. The flow of education and learning does NOT go backwards in civilized societies. In today's society in industrialized nations, this means that children go to school, from kindergarten through 4 years of college, at least. Education has made millionaires out of paupers, has created scientists and fostered brillance in all disciplines and arts. Education has created lives of equity and equality for those who started out as disadvantaged.

Why are the male FLDS children and teenagers not valued as the future leaders?
Why do the male FLDS children not receive formal education? I can wrap my mind around the sexual deviancy a bit better because of everything I have read here at WS and in the news, etc. Deprativy is rampant in our world, whether in a relgious cult or a man who locks his daughter in a closet and she bears his seven children over many years.. We all have read the sickness.

One thing that I have not seen addressed, and I mean NO disrespect, but if Warren Jeffs had the early physical problems he is said to have, and if he has propogated all these incestuous families under his wing, then isn't there a possiblity that a great percentage of the third and fourth generation children who were taken from the compound are mentally retarded or otherwise mentally handicapped, as can certainly rapidly occur with the genetic Fumarase deficiency?
Is it legal for the state of Texas to test the chidren's mental capabilites and IQ?

I have read statements several times from Texas CPS workers that " These children could not survive in the outside world", which now, after reading this thread about genetic diseases, causes me to think that they do not mean cannot adapt due to cultural differences.
Perhaps they are referring to what they see but we cannot--- that they lack the mental capacity for learning, which is necessary for survival of the individual.

It would maybe partially explain why the children are used and abused, and not even given individual identities by human beings who gave them life.. they are expected to die.
Maybe so many children die from disease that this generation of adults has been told not to bond with their children? I know of no other civilization which does not and has not valued its offspring. Animals will abandon a deformed or inactive offspring. It seems that the FLDS operate on an animalistic level rather than a humanistic level.
Is it possible that many of the FLDS children are deemed unworthy of basic loving because the genetic diseases have caused physical and mental problems? That they are deemed to be deficient in the eyes of the males who produced them and are given to the women to deal with? IF a percentage of them do have an inborn error of metabolism, which the fumarase deficiency is, then mental abilities are affected very early in life. If they have Osteogenesis Imperfecta then they are not able to perform daily tasks or bear children. Read up on it. There are degrees of bone involvement, but if it is the most severe form where both parents have the gene, then there's no way the female children with the disease could bear a child, if she lived to the age of puberty. All of this is so foreign and certainly repugnant to me, but I am trying to understand how any sort of closed sect can survive if the male children, at least, are not given advantages, status, education..

Maybe the genetic diseases and deficiencies have been problems in polygamous cults for a longer time than we can imagine due to the secrecy. Everything about them is secretive because of the law-breaking polygamy.
I don't know what the situation is with the children and women in Texas, and it's probably something we will not know due to the HiPAA act, but someone knows something.. the women who left know.
If you are interested in the FLDS cult, I would love to read your opinion based on what is written here, and what has been officially stated by Tx CPS about the very young women and the children not being able to survive outside their native environment.

Maria

This is all in my opinion but...
As far as education, first of all education often leads to thinking, which might lead to questioning. Also, the more time kids spend in a classroom, the less time they are able to work and earn money. They do some government work and own industries that bring money in.

They not only don't recruit, they don't allow outsiders to join. They believe their blood is "pure" because it descends from the prophet and they plan for it to stay that way.

Certain of the males are probably valued as future leaders. But they must be totally obedient to the prophet. They cannot question. They must work and earn their way to the top. Some of the most obedient may receive further education- if that person/profession is needed to fill a need for the church.

There is documentation of fumerase (sp) disease in the FLDS. But we have all questioned why we didn't see it in the children on TV. One of the former FLDS women has said there is a baby cemetary in Utah and she has allegedly said that they have a high rate of infant death and that it isn't unknown for babies who aren't perfect at birth to be killed. But so far that hasn't been officially verified.

As far as why the children couldn't adapt to our society, I didn't see the quote. But all kids who are taken from an abusive environment have challenges. Adjustments that they have to make. But with these kids, they have no other experiences to compare a new life to. Their friends lived in the same type of household they did. Their other family members also. They are taught total belief in the FLDS and the prophet. They aren't taught to make independent decisions. They are taught they don't have individual value other than their value to the church. They are taught to fear outsiders, even outsiders offering help. They aren't educated, so it is hard for them to get anything other than low paying jobs. If they are kicked out at a very young age, they may not even be able to get that low paying job. Since they know nothing about the outside, they don't even know where to go to get outside help and they are too afraid to ask for it.

The only comparisons I can make is it is like putting them up on a pole, and that pole is the church. If you jerk the pole out, what happens to them?
 

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