GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[AngelWings444]

Interesting article from the media thread for those of you who, like me, may not usually check up there. Tracy Martin and his current estranged wife give more details about themselves, their relationships with Trayvon and what Tracy thought happened the night of the shooting.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-father-20120505_1_martin-family-shooting-death-miami-gardens

It's very telling when an EX, has nothing but good things to say. Everyone speaks so highly of the Martin's. I really hope the defense doesn't "go there".

 

[Nova]

I was thinking in terms of the difference between "mind" and "indifference". Mind being something long term and indifference being a spur of the moment type of thing. I really think he got caught up in the moment of "not letting this one get away" and just used extremely poor judgment. jmo

But "depraved mind" is what Florida calls New York's concept of "depraved indifference" and California's concept of "criminal malice". They all mean the same thing. They are all measured in the instant the killing occurs and none of them requires prior contemplation.

When you talk about long term consideration or (as California puts) "serious consideration", then you get into the area of premeditation and 1st degree murder.

 

[Nova]

grr...post lost in the ether.

I think what I said is that we are all correct lol

The NY case I was thinking of was People v. Gonzalez (don't ask how I got State v. Parker!). I linked it. Bottom line, without getting too mucked up in the subtleties, I think the standards are similar, if not identical. But since there was a Fla. case directly on point, I went with that case instead of the NY case.

I can't remember right at the moment whether it is Gonzalez or an even more recent NY case that points out that intentional murder (including intentional murder 2 - there is such a charge in NY, apparently) and depraved indifference murder 2 are mutually exclusive in NY. So, if this case were there, and George is found to have formed an intent to kill at any point prior to shooting, he would walk since he would not be guilty of depraved indifference and has not been charged with a specific intent crime.

As they say, "it's complicated"

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-court-of-appeals/1309102.html

My impressions of New York law come largely from Law & Order, so perhaps I should keep them to myself. (There are numerous episodes that talk about an intentional murder being second degree. First degree seems reserved for special cases such as the murder of police officers.)

In any event, the intent of my post was merely to further illustrate what you were saying. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

 

[Phoenixfla]

In 2005 according to the police report of 911 calls placed by GZ he was following a car, pursuing them on the highway trying to catch up with them while on the phone with LE. 46 calls to 911 with his name is not anonymous. lol

What did he do after following him? Did he try to detain the guy? Did he try to make a citizen's arrest?

 

[tpgks]

Interesting article from the media thread for those of you who, like me, may not usually check up there. Tracy Martin and his current estranged wife give more details about themselves, their relationships with Trayvon and what Tracy thought happened the night of the shooting.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-father-20120505_1_martin-family-shooting-death-miami-gardens

Wait a minute. So Tracy and his ex-wife (Stanley) "split up just weeks before Trayvon's death." But Tracy and Brandy were already "engaged" at the time of the shooting?

"Fiance" reference http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/030712-Father-of-teen-shot-in-Sanford-to-speak

I also find it strange that there is no mention what-so-ever of Trayvon's "brother" who he was at home with watching the All-Star game.

 

[suzihawk]

What did he do after following him? Did he try to detain the guy? Did he try to make a citizen's arrest?

IDK. Do you know if the guy he was chasing that time was a defenseless black teenager?

 

[Phoenixfla]

It's very telling when an EX, has nothing but good things to say. Everyone speaks so highly of the Martin's. I really hope the defense doesn't "go there".

Since the prosecution has conceded that they don't know who started the physical confrontation, I doubt the defense would need to.

That is still the most important point to me. Someone decided to take it from a verbal altercation to a physical altercation. That is what I want to see evidence of.

 

[Phoenixfla]

Wait a minute. So Tracy and his ex-wife (Stanley) "split up just weeks before Trayvon's death." But Tracy and Brandy were already "engaged" at the time of the shooting?

"Fiance" reference http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/030712-Father-of-teen-shot-in-Sanford-to-speak

I also find it strange that there is no mention what-so-ever of Trayvon's "brother" who he was at home with watching the All-Star game.

I'm not judging him, but that is a very short time.

 

[LambChop]

Wait a minute. So Tracy and his ex-wife (Stanley) "split up just weeks before Trayvon's death." But Tracy and Brandy were already "engaged" at the time of the shooting?

"Fiance" reference http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/030712-Father-of-teen-shot-in-Sanford-to-speak

I also find it strange that there is no mention what-so-ever of Trayvon's "brother" who he was at home with watching the All-Star game.

It says ex-wife. Their divorce may have been final a couple of weeks before. How long does it take to get divorced in Florida??? jmo

 

[LambChop]

IDK. Do you know if the guy he was chasing that time was a defenseless black teenager?

And what was GZ's intent in the first place when he decided to follow TM. He knew LE was on the way so why follow TM. Did he think LE was not capable of doing their job so he had to intervene??? What was the reasoning for GZ to follow someone he claims he was in fear of?????

In the bond hearing GZ admitted he did not know whether or not TM had a gun so why would he follow him? jmo

 

[Phoenixfla]

And what was GZ's intent in the first place when he decided to follow TM. He knew LE was on the way so why follow TM. Did he think LE was not capable of doing their job so he had to intervene??? What was the reasoning for GZ to follow someone he claims he was in fear of?????

In the bond hearing GZ admitted he did not know whether or not TM had a gun so why would he follow him? jmo

I think we have this argument at least once every few days. Lol. I would speculate that his intent was to continue to observe him at a safe distance so he could report to the officer which way he went.

 

[suzihawk]

I think we have this argument at least once every few days. Lol. I would speculate that his intent was to continue to observe him at a safe distance so he could report to the officer which way he went.

But he didn't do that, IMO.

What's that old saying? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Not that I think GZ had 'good' intentions.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Wait a minute. So Tracy and his ex-wife (Stanley) "split up just weeks before Trayvon's death." But Tracy and Brandy were already "engaged" at the time of the shooting?

"Fiance" reference http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/030712-Father-of-teen-shot-in-Sanford-to-speak

I also find it strange that there is no mention what-so-ever of Trayvon's "brother" who he was at home with watching the All-Star game.

I find that interesting because it tells me that TM was not familiar with the area. I think it might make him look more 'suspicious' than the average resident because he did not know his way around the complex and may have been lost. All of the condos look alike and it is probably hard to get your bearings.

 

[katydid23]

But he didn't do that, IMO.

What's that old saying? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Not that I think GZ had 'good' intentions.

JMO

I think his intentions were good. I think he mistakenly believed that TM was one of the young black males that had been breaking into the condos and had been stealing from the patios.

He was WRONG, and he should not have left his car that night. But that does not mean his intentions were bad, just very very badly carried out. JMO

 

[LambChop]

I think his intentions were good. I think he mistakenly believed that TM was one of the young black males that had been breaking into the condos and had been stealing from the patios.

He was WRONG, and he should not have left his car that night. But that does not mean his intentions were bad, just very very badly carried out. JMO

What ever would TM be able to steal from a patio? He had no car. He didn't even have pockets other than his hoodie. That is what makes this all so tragic. Had GZ used his common sense he would have realized this young man had nothing to carry anything away with. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I think we have this argument at least once every few days. Lol. I would speculate that his intent was to continue to observe him at a safe distance so he could report to the officer which way he went.

But, again, he had no authority to do so. None, zip. Advice and directions from the NWP and LE were ignored. Did GZ think that this advice given was just to be ignored? We have police departments to handle these types of matters for the specific reason of keeping people safe. Yet GZ had no regard for LE and pretty much did what he wanted with tragic results. jmo

 

[Elley Mae]

What ever would TM be able to steal from a patio? He had no car. He didn't even have pockets other than his hoodie. That is what makes this all so tragic. Had GZ used his common sense he would have realized this young man had nothing to carry anything away with. jmo

A few months back the two individuals that I saw walking down the street (rural neighborhood) at 3am (one entered my property and opened my vehicle) didn't have vehicle that I saw. When we scared them off they took off running.

 

[katydid23]

What ever would TM be able to steal from a patio? He had no car. He didn't even have pockets other than his hoodie. That is what makes this all so tragic. Had GZ used his common sense he would have realized this young man had nothing to carry anything away with. jmo

I NEVER said TM was going to steal anything.

But how would GZ KNOW if TM had a car in the lot anywhere?

 

[LambChop]

I NEVER said TM was going to steal anything.

But how would GZ KNOW if TM had a car in the lot anywhere?

Because he followed TM all that way walking. Common sense would tell you if you plan to steal something drive there, don't park your car at 7-11. Electronics are heavy. jmo

 

[katydid23]

The theft ring that was working in our sub division used one car and had several teens out running around separately. They used those mobile radio things to keep in touch.
And it was a resident who called in after being suspicious of a teen walking around, listening to their i-pod.
This group had been breaking into our cars for months.