Hotel Cecil Rooftop K-9 Search

[jetsetsam]

But LE was diligent enough to take a dog up to the roof, which implies that they seached all levels of the hotel with the dog.

Which implies that LE was taking things relatively seriously.

And in the first news releases LE did indicate that they were concerned that she may have been the victim of foul play.

Why would they say that unless they had tracked something in the hotel? Or knew something.

 

[Oriah]

I'm getting more and more perplexed by what LE didn't find with a tracking dog.

The fact that they used a dog at all implies that their dog could identify her scent from something. Her personal belongings in her room and perhaps used bed clothes on the bed? Used towels?

So let's assume that the dog could identify her scent at her room.

Then what?

Did the dog identify her scent at the elevator on the 14th floor?

She came into view of the elevator camera from the left, and at the end of the video turned to the left.

So could they track her scent to the left of the elevator?

Did they identify her scent anywhere else in the hotel?

Apparently they didn't identify her scent at any of the access points to the roof, or they would have searched the roof more thoroughly.

It would seem logical to identify or track her scent in different parts of the hotel, map it, and then draw conclusions from that for further seaching or investigation.

But it's almost as if they walked around the hotel with a dog and then did nothing except interview hotel guests and staff.

Which seems to imply that they found nothing with the dog anywhere in the hotel except what they found in her room.

And then concluded that she had left the hotel?

Is it possible she was coming from another room, possibly on another floor?

 

[Oriah]

But LE was diligent enough to take a dog up to the roof, which implies that they seached all levels of the hotel with the dog.

Which implies that LE was taking things relatively seriously.

And in the first news releases LE did indicate that they were concerned that she may have been the victim of foul play.

Why would they say that unless they had tracked something in the hotel? Or knew something.

Quick question: Were those news releases made before or after she was located deceased?

 

[OCSlacker]

Has the time of death been determined?

5 days on a concrete surface does retain live scent, imvho, but it's very dependant on environmental and physical conditions. Does anyone know if she was wearing footwear when found?

I don't Believe we can say with 100% certainty that she was wearing clothing or footwear when found. Early reports by MSM indicated that she was found nude in the water tank. However, on this forum the question has come up as to whether that was in fact the case. With LE being so hush hush, and MSM releasing very little info & at times releasing contradictory info, I don't think anyone here can answer that with absolute certainty.

Does anyone have links?

 

[Oriah]

I don't Believe we can say with 100% certainty that she was wearing clothing or footwear when found. Early reports by MSM indicated that she was found nude in the water tank. However, on this forum the question has come up as to whether that was in fact the case. With LE being so hush hush, and MSM releasing very little info & at times releasing contradictory info, I don't think anyone here can answer that with absolute certainty.

Does anyone have links?

Do we know if there was any material recovered from the water tank?

 

[Oriah]

The way I read this is that Oriah is saying that the dog used by the police should have been able to detect scent on the roof in the vicinity of the tanks in any of the four scenarios presented by sillybilly.

If they found scent at the 15th floor base of any of the external fire escapes, or at the base of the internal roof access stair, they would have followed it up to the roof, expecting to find more scent.

So what's the general conclusion?


That the body entered the tank after the initial dog search?

BBM: I think this is a possibility. Not probable, but possible. Is it possible she was deceased in another hotel room (not her own) while that particular search took place- and then was moved later on?

Also, does anyone have any of the schematics for the water supply at the hotel? I keep pulling up different ones (not sure which ones are accurate) and it appears as if some are pumping water UP to the containers. Is it possible she entered that particular container from a lower floor?

 

[OCSlacker]

Do we know if there was any material recovered from the water tank?

LE hasn't released any info at all. The public has been given little to no information other than EL's body was recovered from the tank, the tank was checked by maintenance due to complaints of low water pressure and the maintenance worker noticed the body. Conflicting reports are, body nude, body clothed, body was wedged at bottom of tank, body floating at top of tank, lid of tank open/ closed, position of the body / clothing etc. has varied throughout.

As for press releases, I've been trying to look over the original press conference from 2/6. Have yet to hear mention of search dogs at that point. On 2/14 elevator video was released, 2/19 body found, 2/20 is the first I see a mention of search dogs being used but in a context that would lead you to believe that it was done during the initial search 2/1-2/6. There was mention of foul play early on in the search. I believe at the first press conference.

 

[Conductor71]

Quick question: Were those news releases made before or after she was located deceased?

The news releases were made the same day the LAPD launched their search on or around February 6 th.

The authorities said that her disappearance is suspicious and may suggest foul play. Lam has no prior history of disappearing in the past.

source: http://www.examiner.com/article/elisa-lam-canadian-tourist-missing-los-angeles


Police searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn’t know if the tanks were examined. Reported 2/20/13. source: KTLA


Oriah, could you maybe explain the different type of searches SAR dogs trained for and how they "work" . I think there is some confusion over what a tracking dog vs. what air scenting dog can do. What might interfere with a tracking dog losing EL's scent?

As for the shoes and clothing. Last she was seen on video it looks like she was wearing sandals. We have no idea whether anything else was found in the tank.

 

[OCSlacker]

[/B]

BBM: I think this is a possibility. Not probable, but possible. Is it possible she was deceased in another hotel room (not her own) while that particular search took place- and then was moved later on?

Also, does anyone have any of the schematics for the water supply at the hotel? I keep pulling up different ones (not sure which ones are accurate) and it appears as if some are pumping water UP to the containers. Is it possible she entered that particular container from a lower floor?

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the link above is of the water tank where she was found. the hole in the side was made by LAFD to remove the body. The only access to the tank is via a hatch on the top. There is a small pipe (roughly 3-4in) on the bottom of the tank, that can be seen at the 55 sec. mark. Not sure if water is pumped in through the bottom and then taken from the top or vice versa.


The ladder that is shown in the video was possibly placed there by LAFD or maintenance. There was another ladder to the side that was chained when LAFD were at the scene. Wouldn't a tracking dog have picked up on her scent if she were in another room? say she went to another room on her own accord and latter died, I would assume that the dog would have tracked her there. if she was already deceased and carried to another room, then I'm guessing there is no way for a dog to pick that up. Is that correct? If she was ever alive on the roof the dog would pick that up also, and a more thorough search of the roof would have taken place, correct? If the lid was open, I would assume LE would have checked, but lets say they didn't, you would think that a tracking dog would have picked up the scent of a decomposing body

 

[Sillybilly]

Conflicting reports are, body nude, body clothed, body was wedged at bottom of tank, body floating at top of tank, lid of tank open/ closed, position of the body / clothing etc. has varied throughout.

<rsbm>

The only little tweak i'd make re the above is, although there were some unofficial claims that her body was found nude, I don't believe we've heard any references to her body being found clothed.

 

[Oriah]

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the link above is of the water tank where she was found. the hole in the side was made by LAFD to remove the body. The only access to the tank is via a hatch on the top. There is a small pipe (roughly 3-4in) on the bottom of the tank, that can be seen at the 55 sec. mark. Not sure if water is pumped in through the bottom and then taken from the top or vice versa.


The ladder that is shown in the video was possibly placed there by LAFD or maintenance. There was another ladder to the side that was chained when LAFD were at the scene. Wouldn't a tracking dog have picked up on her scent if she were in another room? say she went to another room on her own accord and latter died, I would assume that the dog would have tracked her there. if she was already deceased and carried to another room, then I'm guessing there is no way for a dog to pick that up. Is that correct? If she was ever alive on the roof the dog would pick that up also, and a more thorough search of the roof would have taken place, correct? If the lid was open, I would assume LE would have checked, but lets say they didn't, you would think that a tracking dog would have picked up the scent of a decomposing body

I'm a bit confused. The LAFD took this video??

Also, yes- a tracking or trailing dog should have picked up her scent if she was in another room, assuming other rooms were checked as possible PLS? But it seems like that may not have happened here. :waitasec: We're talking about a relatively large structure.

And now I'm confused about the structure itself. Where is the access the FD made vs the access/hatch on top?

 

[Perplexed 123]

I'm a bit confused. The LAFD took this video??

Also, yes- a tracking or trailing dog should have picked up her scent if she was in another room, assuming other rooms were checked as possible PLS? But it seems like that may not have happened here. :waitasec: We're talking about a relatively large structure.

And now I'm confused about the structure itself. Where is the access the FD made vs the access/hatch on top?

FD accessed the tank from near the bottom, side through a hole they cut themselves

 

[fred&edna]

<rsbm>

The only little tweak i'd make re the above is, although there were some unofficial claims that her body was found nude, I don't believe we've heard any references to her body being found clothed.

Of note, I haven't received a reply from the reporter who stated the body in the tank was nude. (I didn't actually expect to get one but it would have been a nice surprise)

 

[OCSlacker]

I'm a bit confused. The LAFD took this video??

Also, yes- a tracking or trailing dog should have picked up her scent if she was in another room, assuming other rooms were checked as possible PLS? But it seems like that may not have happened here. :waitasec: We're talking about a relatively large structure.

And now I'm confused about the structure itself. Where is the access the FD made vs the access/hatch on top?

No, the video was made by some Chinese investigators who visited the hotel about a week after the body was found. When looking at the video, from the top of the water tower looking into it through the hatch, at the 44sec mark, you will see a hole cut into the side of the tank. That hole was made by LAFD to remove the body. The video is being filmed through the only original opening, the hatch opening, throughout the majority of the video. It appears as though the hatch lid has been removed, more than likely by LE on the day the body was found.

 

[Sillybilly]

And now I'm confused about the structure itself. Where is the access the FD made vs the access/hatch on top?

<rsbm>

Pic of the access hole the FD cut out of the water tank to recover Elisa's body:

(bottom of the water tank on the left, where the photographer is seen pointing his camera down)

 

[Oriah]

<rsbm>

Pic of the access hole the FD cut out of the water tank to recover Elisa's body:

(bottom of the water tank on the left, where the photographer is seen pointing his camera down)

Okay, thank you SB. So they initially accessed the tank from the top; and then determined they needed to access through the bottom of the tank (where I assume the connection to water source was going through? either up or down?) because there was something blocking the flow?

I apologize, this is really graphic- but I am trying to figure out where and what a K9 might have missed.

Is there any MSM or ME report that discusses the condition of her body- beyond the water damage aspect?

 

[noodled1]

Okay, thank you SB. So they initially accessed the tank from the top; and then determined they needed to access through the bottom of the tank (where I assume the connection to water source was going through? either up or down?) because there was something blocking the flow?

I apologize, this is really graphic- but I am trying to figure out where and what a K9 might have missed.

Is there any MSM or ME report that discusses the condition of her body- beyond the water damage aspect?

If it's like most potable water systems the water tank's supply water is fed through the top pumped up from the street then fed out through the top or near the top of the tank then fed to the hotel. There's lots of sediment on the bottom that builds up, if you look in the pic you'dd see the sediment at the bottom of the tank

And no there's no reports on condition of the body

The facts we know for a fact are her body was found in the tank.

Anything else like condition of the body, clothed or unclothed, scratches, time in the water, alive or dead when she went in, etc etc etc are 100% speculation

 

[Oriah]

Thank you noodled1.

Warning graphic:

My thought is that it seems that some part of her remains were possibly in the hotels filtration system at the base of the water tower? I don't know why else the FD would cut a hole at the base if they could remove her entirely, using the access at the top.
So that makes me think she was likely in the water for some time and perhaps they had tried to flush the system and the pressure from that had disarticulated?

A K9 might have been confused by that.
ETA: I mean possibly flushed the system prior to her being located.

 

[Perplexed 123]

Thank you noodled1.

Warning graphic:

My thought is that it seems that some part of her remains were possibly in the hotels filtration system at the base of the water tower? I don't know why else the FD would cut a hole at the base if they could remove her entirely, using the access at the top.
So that makes me think she was likely in the water for some time and perhaps they had tried to flush the system and the pressure from that had disarticulated?

A K9 might have been confused by that.
ETA: I mean possibly flushed the system prior to her being located.

My guess on the necessity to cut a hole would be similar to yours. If water is being removed from the tank by guests using it, her body would go be drawn towards the outlet hole, hence the water pressure issues being reported by guests, as part of her body was blocking/stuck in the pipe.


Elisa was 5'4' in height. According to this article, the water tank was 4.5' wide, therefore she could not have floated horizontally because she was too tall.

 

[bessie]

My guess on the necessity to cut a hole would be similar to yours. If water is being removed from the tank by guests using it, her body would go be drawn towards the outlet hole, hence the water pressure issues being reported by guests, as part of her body was blocking/stuck in the pipe.


Elisa was 5'4' in height. According to this article, the water tank was 4.5' wide, therefore she could not have floated horizontally because she was too tall.

Do we know the dimensions of the hatch opening on top of the tank? Perhaps bloating made it difficult to remove the body from above.