i come to refute!

[Jayelles]

The enhanced 911 tape is part of the police file and has not been released to the public. I personally will reserve judgement on the alleged voices until such times as I hear the enhanced tape for myself on suitable equipment (probably never).

To draw any conclusion from the unenhanced tape is like forming an opinion when one has only heard one side of a story. Some people seem to be happy to do that. More fool them IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

The source for the fibers was the August 2000 interviews in Atlanta while interviewing Patsy Ramsey. The following was a discussion between Bruce Levin and Lin Wood:

BRUCE LEVIN: "Based on the state of the art of scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket she's wrapped in, and were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

LIN WOOD: "Right. Not without -- I mean with all due respect, Bruce, even the discussion we had, as I can best recall it, we didn't get a consistent description of the fiber results on the question of the paint tray. You are sitting here making a record saying that it is a fact, and I don't know that."

BlueCrab

EDITED to add fibers were also found on the blanket.

and...

MURPHY: "Don’t forget for a minute that nobody really disputes Patsy Ramsey’s sweater fibers were on the tape" and "wrapped inside the garrote."

In the USA is a Jacket the same as a Sweater ?

My understanding is that the fibers were never conclusively matched. The other fibers can be explained by cross-contamination.

I still think its possible to entertain an IDI scenario because a ramsey associate present as an invitee, may have molested JonBenet, or he may have clandestinely returned after leaving.

 

[Jayelles]

and...


In the USA is a Jacket the same as a Sweater ?

My understanding is that the fibers were never conclusively matched. The other fibers can be explained by cross-contamination.

I still think its possible to entertain an IDI scenario because a ramsey associate present as an invitee, may have molested JonBenet, or he may have clandestinely returned after leaving.

What the Americans calla "sweater" is what the British would call a "jumper" or a "jersey". A jumper in the US is what we would call a pinafore! It's all quite confusing.

During the trial of David Westerfield, there were experts on fibre shedding and a lot of discussion about this on the forums. They were trying to establish whether an abundance of orange fibres would come from a multi-coloured afghan and they were asking why there would be more orange than the other colours in the afghan.

One expert explained that some fibres are more inclined to shed than others and when different fibres are combined/woven to make a fabric, they keep their shedding properties - often resulting in a shedding prevalence of one fibre over others.

I guess it's a bit like dogs. You might have a golden retriever and a bichon frise living in the same house, but analysis of vacuumed hairs would suggest that only a golden retriever lived there! You can prove the presence of fibres, but you can't prove the absence of them.

 

[UKGuy]

Jayelles:

Yes the terminology is confusing but in the USA a Jacket and a Sweater are different items of clothing?

Or is this simply different names for the same source of fiber?

 

[GuruJosh]

Jayelles:

Yes the terminology is confusing but in the USA a Jacket and a Sweater are different items of clothing?

Or is this simply different names for the same source of fiber?

a sweater is usually like a pullover jumper with no central zipper or buttons (ie you pull it on over your head) whereas a jacket usually has a central zipper or buttons (not a cardigan, but the same form as a cardigan or a windcheater or something)... know what i mean?

 

[Jayelles]

My understanding is that Patsy's red and black jacket was made of a fleecy fabric.

I don't think sweater and jacket are interchangeable terms in the US.

 

[Rainsong]

My understanding is that Patsy's red and black jacket was made of a fleecy fabric.

I don't think sweater and jacket are interchangeable terms in the US.

They aren't, but there are sweater-jackets. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies?

But then Thomas couldn't discern the difference between a red turtleneck sweater and a red jumpsuit and he seems to be the one person involved in the case who was confused about Patsy's apparel.

Rainsong

 

[TLynn]

The NE interview was part of an out of court settlement between the tab & the Ramseys. (Seeker mentions this). The Ramseys agreed to the interview with the Enquirer....and agreed to it being published. Therefore, the interview is determined credible.

Smit seems to think the basement window was the entry/exit for the "intruder." John Ramsey didn't contradict Smit. Now, John has adapted that as his theory.

In addition, John Ramsey also claims to have seen a strange van in the alleyway while looking out the window with binoculars - and he DIDN'T report that either.

I think John Ramsey was a nervous wreck that the BPD hadn't discovered JonBenet's body yet and that's all that was on his mind.

 

[BlueCrab]

It doesn't make any difference what you call it (sweater, jacket, coat, etc.) -- there is only ONE item of clothing under discussion. That one item of clothing is the outerwear Patsy wore to the White's dinner party. It was red and black and fibers consistent with the garment were found at the crime scene.

But "consistent with" does not equate with "match", so the fiber evidence is weak. Besides, there was a black and red scarf on the counter in the kitchen, and the scarf fibers could have been the source of the fibers at the crime scene. For instance, the scarf could have been the padding needed to properly use the ligature wrapped around JonBenet's neck as an erotic asphyxiation device.

And the fibers were microscopic, which often means they can float in the air and settle almost anywhere. Incidentally, there were hundreds of different fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape, not just four -- so the tape itself had likely been all over the place prior to being placed on JonBenet's mouth.

The fiber evidence shouldn't be discarded, but it is very weak evidence to draw conclusions from.

BlueCrab

 

[capps]

Thank you BlueCrab!!!!

I was just going to start a new thread about over analyzing. But first,let me include that there is no spell check and my edit button isn't working,so please try to look past the typos.

I agree with you BC ... who cares if it's called a swater,jumper or whatever ... we all get the gist.

Not all the time,but some time I think over analyzing can be a detriment,which can at times,steer one away from the basic facts.

Let's start with this case ....
(Okay,okay ... I can almost see the eyes rolling ... put humor me.)

Can we at this point start all over with basic FACTS,and then begin the process of elimination,without getting caught up with the second hand info,the media said etc.,etc. And be any closer to solving this case?

I wonder.

 

[Toltec]

John discovers the open window but does not find it terribly unusual because it sometimes gets cracked open in the winter because the basement gets too hot.

BUT WHY DIDN'T HE MENTION TO POLICE THAT THE WINDOW WAS BROKEN???

BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT HE BROKE IT AND THAT HE KNEW IT HAD NOT BEEN FIXED!!!

Another thing that bothers me about that window is that around 6am...Officer French went downstairs looking for point of entry.

WHY DIDN'T OFFICER FRENCH REPORT THE OPEN/BROKEN WINDOW???

I'll tell you why.

BECAUSE THERE WAS A CHAIR LEANING AGAINST THE DOOR LEADING TO THE BROKEN WINDOW....WHICH MEANT THAT OFFICER FRENCH DIDN'T BOTHER MOVING THE CHAIR....BECAUSE HE WAS LOOKING FOR POINTS OF ENTRY!

 

[little1]

dramatically out of the ordinary, but, that is, I thought about it.

<snip>
QUOTE]


Okay, so the window being open---whether or not it was broken---is "dramatically out of the ordinary," but he doesn't mention it? That is just a bit unbelievable. His daughter is kidnapped, regardless of what he was looking for--JonBenet, a open window/door, etc---why would you NOT mention a window that was open? There is no amount of explaining that could make me understand that. NONE.

 

[Seeker]

I don't believe the window was open or broken when Officer French went down into the basement. I don't believe it was open or broken when Fleet White went down there either.

I believe that John Ramsey opened it and broke it to make it seem like an intruder came in that way to further the charade. He's the only one who says he saw it open...

The window opens inward as it's a French window. When you open a French window inward it creates it's own suction, the suction pulls debris into the room. Anyone with French doors, or window's can verify this...I have French windows (on a hinge) that open inward. I have had leaves, grass and dust pulled in when opening the door.

 

[Voice of Reason]

The whole window thing makes no sense. Even if it was not "dramatically out of the ordinary", when your daughter has supposedly been kidnapped, that is something you should mention...an open window.

Imagine that you have a window which you always leave unlocked or slightly open in your house, because when you forget your keys, you can slip in through that window. Now, imagine that your daughter has been kidnapped, and the police ask about points of entry, and whether you notice anything out of the ordinary. Wouldn't you say something to the effect of, "while it's not out of the ordinary, because I always leave that window unlocked or slightly open, it is certainly a point of entry, as I have used it myself on occassion."?????

No matter how you look at it, that was very significant. The fact that John didn't mention it for a while makes no sense to me. If he is involved, wouldn't pointing that out displace the suspicions that were on the family? However, an explanation I've seen discussed on another board, is that John staged the window breaking, but then recanted the idea, thinking it would fall through, and it came out later regardless. I just don't know what to think...

 

[Lacy Wood]

I saw a network program a couple years ago featuring a walk-through of the Ramsey house. They showed a photo (I believe it was a still photo) of the basement window with a tall/narrow suitcase under it, but with the suitcase perpendicular to the wall.

I remarked at the time that I may be one of the relatively few who have actually used a suitcase in a similar manner (not criminal, of course) and the scene was obviously staged. Why? Because of the lateral instability (wobble) of the suitcase. Try climbing on a tall suitcase positioned perpendicular to a wall to reach up to a window (If your insurance is paid up only!)... Just approaching it that way you instantly see the "right" way is parallel and against or slightly leaning against the wall. I believe anyone objective who tries this will sense what I am refering to. I am not aware if the picture was purported to be the position of the suitcase that morning or just a guess at a hypothetical intruder's method.

But if it was either a guess or the actual scene it would seem to be staged. Not just because there were easy doors to walk out rather than a tough climb out that window, but for the reason above. (It should be obvious that the situation applies only to an exiting of the premises.) If there is a link to an actual photo or an official report on the scene that morning, perhaps someone will post it.

 

[capps]

The whole window thing makes no sense. Even if it was not "dramatically out of the ordinary", when your daughter has supposedly been kidnapped, that is something you should mention...an open window.

Imagine that you have a window which you always leave unlocked or slightly open in your house, because when you forget your keys, you can slip in through that window. Now, imagine that your daughter has been kidnapped, and the police ask about points of entry, and whether you notice anything out of the ordinary. Wouldn't you say something to the effect of, "while it's not out of the ordinary, because I always leave that window unlocked or slightly open, it is certainly a point of entry, as I have used it myself on occassion."?????

No matter how you look at it, that was very significant. The fact that John didn't mention it for a while makes no sense to me. If he is involved, wouldn't pointing that out displace the suspicions that were on the family? However, an explanation I've seen discussed on another board, is that John staged the window breaking, but then recanted the idea, thinking it would fall through, and it came out later regardless. I just don't know what to think...

You're right VOR, it doesn't make sense. Especially,as you noted,JR making the police aware of the window would be in his favor (intruder).

It's just another one of the crazy things the Ramsey's did through out this case,that make you shake your head and scream "What the hell is going on???"

BTW ... the JR breaking the window on 12/26 scenerio is bogus. Even JR wouldn't be stupid enough to take the risk of maybe someone hearing glass break. IMO.

 

[ayjey]

Wow, Voice of Reason, you've asked questions that many of us have been waiting to have answered for a long time!

Here's my take on your questions:

1. Patsy practically laid on top of JonBenet's body, so logically you can say "innocent" transfer of fibers.

2. Ok, disregarding the "enhanced 911 call", say Burke was awake upstairs.
His parents didn't know this until later. Personally, as a parent, I would think this is rather strange that this 9 year old heard his parents frantically calling his 6 year old sister's name and still he stayed and "FEIGNED SLEEP!"

3. Still waiting for someone to logically explain this one.

4. John and Patsy both stated JonBenet was asleep when they arrived home.
She was carried up to bed and Patsy tucked her in. I've not ever read or heard that she was awakened to use the bathroom. It was her 9 year old brother, BURKE, who told police she was awake and walked up the stairs.

5. See answer #2.

 

[tipper]

Could you give me a source for them frantically calling her name. I don't recall reading that.

Also, while Burke did say she walked upstairs he also said she was asleep and was carried up. Even ST said he didn't think Burke remembered which it was.

 

[ayjey]

Sorry Tipper, I don't have my books in front of me. I think it tells about them running around calling for JonBenet in DOI.

 

[Seeker]

BTW ... the JR breaking the window on 12/26 scenerio is bogus. Even JR wouldn't be stupid enough to take the risk of maybe someone hearing glass break. IMO.

I disagree. The window wasn't completely broken out and if he used an elbow it wouldn't make that much noise.

This is a guy who risked being seen outside during the same timeframe that he was "missing" from Arndt's and everyone else's view so why not risk making a little muffled noise?

With everyone else upstairs and talking (Patsy was reportedly constantly crying and sobbing as well with most of their friends in the sunroom with her) I doubt anyone would have heard him. The certainly didn't notice he wasn't with them.