IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #36

[carbuff]

So your geographical radius on the perp is super tight to the recovery grounds?

I am more inclined to think the perps geographical range is super tight to where 1 of the girls lived or to the park.

I think there is some sort of tie to the recovery grounds by the murderer, either through fishing, hunting or partying as a teen and THAT is why the perp put them there. Yes, he risked driving there. But he had already risked so much and got away with it.

The girl's murderer is of the organized category.

Where is the murder scene?

Jmo

There's at least one RSO who was mentioned a lot earlier who has ties to both locations. That particular person seems to have been ruled out, but I still expect it to be somebody with a similar background and similar connections to the crime.

 

[threecrazykids]

Can someone please confirm that the shoes and sandal found on Dubuque Ave, as indicated on Holleye's map below, were all verified to be the girls, or were they just random footwear found?

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...&msa=0&iwloc=0004c4d406effc9c7306f&dg=feature

My understanding is that the girls shoes -well...I should say Elizabeth's shoes -were found with them. If memory serves me correctly, in one interview Heather stated that LE brought them Elizabeth's shoes to identify them as Elizabeth's.

I do remember shoes (and even some clothing) being found during some searches, but I believe those were ruled out as to any connection to the girls.

IMO if the girls shoes were found with them, that means they were killed soon after their abduction. If they had been held anywhere for any length of time and killed just prior to their finding my guess is they would NOT have been wearing the same shoes they had on 6 months earlier...

The shoes being found with the girls is one of the circumstances that still has me thinking they may have been taken to Seven Bridges alive and walked in. However, if this person dumped them, it would make sense to dump the girls and everything that came along with them...leaving shoes or clothing anywhere for someone else to see (say, in a house where no children live) would certainly raise suspicions...

 

[watcher9]

I was thinking that the first we knew that the girls were found far apart was from the pictures taken by a news helicopter which indicated where the sheets/tarps were positioned. There were numerous discussions about the location back then.

We don't know if the investigation revealed any type of tracks found either to and from the site or if there were any tracks traveling through the fields either since no info has been released.

I like the ATV theory as well as the boat and trailer, but then a pickup truck or the trunk of a car could get the same job done.

 

[threecrazykids]

I was thinking that the first we knew that the girls were found far apart was from the pictures taken by a news helicopter which indicated where the sheets/tarps were positioned. There were numerous discussions about the location back then.

We don't know if the investigation revealed any type of tracks found either to and from the site or if there were any tracks traveling through the fields either since no info has been released.

I like the ATV theory as well as the boat and trailer, but then a pickup truck or the trunk of a car could get the same job done.

I do remember seeing the arial pictures as well. Lots of discussions and scaling to try to figure out how far apart they were based on assumed officers heights, etc. Maybe that was CNN's "source" of information?

 

[threecrazykids]

This picture here shows just how far of a walk it is...it's quite deceiving since it's December, but even in this picture you can see how thickly wooded it is.

Heck, IMO driving an ATV right down the middle of the river from the boat access was the easiest way to get them to the area quickly.

It's not a long walk at all once the quad was pulled up onto the sand bar. Maybe 50 feet from the bank?

The second pic shows what appears to be possible tire tracks coming out of the water. That would be a loooonnnggg time though for those tracks to sit undisturbed though...highly doubtful those tracks are the perps. BUT, what it shows is just how easy it is to move those girls fast.

 

[watcher9]

This picture here shows just how far of a walk it is...it's quite deceiving since it's December, but even in this picture you can see how thickly wooded it is.

Heck, IMO driving an ATV right down the middle of the river from the boat access was the easiest way to get them to the area quickly.

It's not a long walk at all once the quad was pulled up onto the sand bar. Maybe 50 feet from the bank?

The second pic shows what appears to be possible tire tracks coming out of the water. That would be a loooonnnggg time though for those tracks to sit undisturbed though...highly doubtful those tracks are the perps. BUT, what it shows is just how easy it is to move those girls fast.

Wasn't there another path leading away from the girls on the other side?
Your second picture shows some of it.

I think one of our brave sleuths who traveled to the site described it in their post way back when.

 

[Wondergirl]

From MrsU and Cranky's case archive

http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cr...sey -IA-/Trees-mrsu-WS.jpg.html?sort=6&o=312

 

[gia2]

Thanks for the images, Wondergirl.

Seeing those white sheets makes me feel so emotional to think someone just left the girls like that in the middle of nowhere. The quietness of them being there when they loved to dance and sing

 

[Wondergirl]

I am so damned frustrated and upset. I feel like it is right there, the killer is there to be found.

How in the hell, did a, presumably, sexual predator -

1. Happen upon 2 young victims who were out of their usual bike and comfort zone?

2. Lure his victims away from bikes and belongings, at a fairly busy park?

3. Keep his victims alive for possibly a few days, as per LE article?

4. Murder and likely assault his victims for possibly a few days, at yet another unknown location?

5. Get rid of his victims, undiscovered, at a remote location, leaving very little evidence, as per LE?

This killer is experienced, organized, middle aged, lives alone, in the country, I am leaning towards zero previous sexual convictions. Could a perfect storm have been created by chance for this heinous monster? There are variables here that are simply too lined up, for at least some not to be controlled.

Who in the hell is this predator? LE must stop this monster.

 

[Wondergirl]

Also, said predator must have had TWO vehicles, at least, in the last 2 years.

I am correlating the unknown white SUV with the murderer, and presuming he took it off the road after the abduction. But, maybe he just painted it.

JMO

 

[margarita25]

What vicious predator killed these innocent angels and why?

Klunder, because he was a very sick f%^&.

jmo

 

[alliemay]

Also, said predator must have had TWO vehicles, at least, in the last 2 years.

I am correlating the unknown white SUV with the murderer, and presuming he took it off the road after the abduction. But, maybe he just painted it.

JMO

I am now wondering if this vehicle was even registered to begin with.

 

[Elley Mae]

Yep!

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

JON LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Jane. Well, first of all, thoughts and prayers go out to this family for this terrible loss. Police can`t say it, but this is a double murder investigation at this point.

I`ve been talking to police sources for the past 24 hours or so, and they stress to me that they have a lot of information, but the reason why they are not releasing much of it is because much it`s information that only the killer or killers would know, and they do not want to jeopardize the investigation.

That said, my sources tell me the following, which we can report: No. 1, bodies were not found, according to my sources, smack dab next to each other. They were found about 40 to 50 feet next to each other.

The second key point is the theory right now is that this was the dump site. That they are looking for the primary murder scene. In other words, where the bodies were found is not where these two little girls were killed.


I do take investigative reports with a grain of salt...however SOMEONE (whomever their "source is") had obviously gotten close enough to the crime scene to know they were found a distance apart.

Also, by stating they were looking for the primary crime scene makes me think there was NOT evidence at the scene to match an obvious COD (say...no blood in the area, but had gunshot wounds - or something like that).

I guess I kind of assumed that for this person to be close enough to the scene, they likely had some sort of authority, as LE isn't going to let anyone else back there.

I guess, for me, I sort of deduced SOME sort of validity to the reports because I would think the first assumption would have been that they were brought there alive and killed right there. Something made someone say this wasn't the spot they were killed...and I can't think of a reason to assume this without some evidence to support that...kwim?

bbm red It's my opinion that your first assumption is right. Their's is nothing more then a theory. jmo

Looking at the pictures again, and going to google maps the closest road that is visible to the area where the girls were found is like 500 feet, or 166 yards or about 1/10 of a mile. That is a short distance to walk. jmo

 

[threecrazykids]

I am so damned frustrated and upset. I feel like it is right there, the killer is there to be found.

How in the hell, did a, presumably, sexual predator -

1. Happen upon 2 young victims who were out of their usual bike and comfort zone?

2. Lure his victims away from bikes and belongings, at a fairly busy park?

3. Keep his victims alive for possibly a few days, as per LE article?

4. Murder and likely assault his victims for possibly a few days, at yet another unknown location?

5. Get rid of his victims, undiscovered, at a remote location, leaving very little evidence, as per LE?

This killer is experienced, organized, middle aged, lives alone, in the country, I am leaning towards zero previous sexual convictions. Could a perfect storm have been created by chance for this heinous monster? There are variables here that are simply too lined up, for at least some not to be controlled.

Who in the hell is this predator? LE must stop this monster.

I'll add a question: :blushing:

6. How many people in Bremer, Black Hawk and even Buchanan county currently have, or have ever owned an older white SUV that apparently NO ONE ON EARTH has seen prior to or after these girls abductions?! :banghead:


SOMEONE knows who this vehicle belongs to - or at least knows someone who HAD a vehicle that matched this description. This person is local. I can't believe that it'd never been driven prior to the abduction and all of a sudden miraculously worked for the one day of the abduction/murder and then mysteriously disappeared again.

Whether it's a vehicle that was stored in an old farm building or has been sold, etc. it should have raised SOMEONE'S hinky meter.

And all I'm gonna say about that is this: Waiting to disclose the reported vehicle immediately potentially allowed this person to dispose of the vehicle in some way, shape, or form.
LE did the whole CYA schpeel by saying that the 3 reports were looked at after the 3rd person thought someone else had already reported it. If all 3 people saw the white SUV and neighbors were talking about it, why would all of them call if they knew that 1 already had and reported it?!! When LE didn't act on the initial report that this person gave, the others likely figured it amounted to nothing. I know I would.

Check the rivers. Did this person drive it into a river and let it sink? They seem to have a fondness for water locations.

Check salvage yards in the entire state! I'd like to think that any junkyards would have reported a vehicle matching this description that was requested to be destroyed.
But then again, if this person is someone local - maybe even knows the perp, are they gonna turn them in? What if this person has some dirt on you and threatens to make you part of the "cover up"? Or what if this person is someone who you "know would NEVER do something like this" so they blew it off?

This case may have made national news, however I think the continued coverage has stayed very local to the CR/Waterloo area. I don't think the white SUV was ever widely broadcasted and made to be a huge deal. What if this person drove the vehicle to, say, the Des Moines area? Or Quad Cities? Would it raise the suspicions that a Waterloo salvage yard would? I seriously doubt it.

The fact that no one came forward and said they were there (at Meyer's Lake) in their white SUV to be cleared, means this is the vehicle they need to track down.

SOMEONE knows who drives/drove a vehicle like that - they just don't believe this person is capable of being involved and likely don't want to be involved themselves so they haven't turned it in.

 

[threecrazykids]

bbm red It's my opinion that your first assumption is right. Their's is nothing more then a theory. jmo

Looking at the pictures again, and going to google maps the closest road that is visible to the area where the girls were found is like 500 feet, or 166 yards or about 1/10 of a mile. That is a short distance to walk. jmo

Yes. That's what...a little over 1 1/2 football fields?
It isn't a long distance in a straight line when you're doing typical walking, say on a road or nature trail.
But trekking in waist high, extremely dense weeds and brush - hauling close to 100 lbs in the middle of July - TWICE- in high humidity, through disgusting amounts of mosquitoes/biting flies, etc. would make that trek a lot tougher than a casual walk you or I may take on a summer evening down a cleared path...KWIM?

It really doesn't look like a long walk in any of the pics. And even measuring it out, it doesn't measure long...it's the terrain that makes it more difficult than it appears.

 

[Elley Mae]

Yes. That's what...a little over 1 1/2 football fields?
It isn't a long distance in a straight line when you're doing typical walking, say on a road or nature trail.
But trekking in waist high, extremely dense weeds and brush - hauling close to 100 lbs in the middle of July - TWICE- in high humidity, through disgusting amounts of mosquitoes/biting flies, etc. would make that trek a lot tougher than a casual walk you or I may take on a summer evening down a cleared path...KWIM?

It really doesn't look like a long walk in any of the pics. And even measuring it out, it doesn't measure long...it's the terrain that makes it more difficult than it appears.

bbm, I think they walked there. I think they were alive and were forced to walk there from the car. I think they where killed there. I can also see were they may have been shot while running. But I do believe that they were still alive when the vehicle arrived at that location. jmo

 

[TedMac]

I am so damned frustrated and upset. I feel like it is right there, the killer is there to be found.

How in the hell, did a, presumably, sexual predator -

1. Happen upon 2 young victims who were out of their usual bike and comfort zone?

2. Lure his victims away from bikes and belongings, at a fairly busy park?

3. Keep his victims alive for possibly a few days, as per LE article?

4. Murder and likely assault his victims for possibly a few days, at yet another unknown location?

5. Get rid of his victims, undiscovered, at a remote location, leaving very little evidence, as per LE?

This killer is experienced, organized, middle aged, lives alone, in the country, I am leaning towards zero previous sexual convictions. Could a perfect storm have been created by chance for this heinous monster? There are variables here that are simply too lined up, for at least some not to be controlled.

Who in the hell is this predator? LE must stop this monster.

BBM Pardon my dumb questions but I'm new to this case and playing catch up on information. What LE article are you referring to?

Also, is it a sure thing that the perp's vehicle is a white SUV? If so, I find it very odd that LE hasn't found the vehicle or even knows who all owns an older white SUV in the area. There are ways the DMV can identify all of them in the immediate area. Plus, in smaller venues like this community, LE tends to know a lot about vehicles in their community.

Thanks for your patience!

 

[tlcya]

LE has never confirmed a specific date of death to my knowledge. They did state that the girls had likely been there since within 48 hours of their abduction based on state of the remains.

Some have extrapolated out from there that it is possible that the girls were kept alive during the first 48 they were missing. And it is

It is equally possible that the ME, when dealing with what were probably at least partially skelatonized remains, was not able to give specific date/time of death but rather a window of time.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM Pardon my dumb questions but I'm new to this case and playing catch up on information. What LE article are you referring to?

Also, is it a sure thing that the perp's vehicle is a white SUV? If so, I find it very odd that LE hasn't found the vehicle or even knows who all owns an older white SUV in the area. There are ways the DMV can identify all of them in the immediate area. Plus, in smaller venues like this community, LE tends to know a lot about vehicles in their community.

Thanks for your patience!

LE has stated they were interested in finding whomever owned the white SUV that was spotted by 3 different people parked next to the wooded area by the back side of Meyer's Lake - but never specifically stated this person is who is responsible for the abduction.

As far as LE not finding the vehicle - I agree. I stated my thoughts on that just before your post. SOMEONE has to know someone who drives a vehicle that fits this description. My theory is that someone DOES know, they just don't want to believe this person is capable of such an act.

The park where the girls bodies were found is so remote that only a local would know how to get to it.
And miraculously this vehicle wasn't driven prior to or after their abduction/murder. Which to me could mean a vehicle that had been stored (possibly in a farm building or shed) for quite some time - but maybe still ran.

Maybe this person had access to this vehicle in some capacity...be it a farm hand, grandparents farm, or some situation where the vehicle isn't regularly driven and could be taken and returned without notice.

 

[tlcya]

part of what has made this case so maddening for those of us who follow it is that there are so many potential red herrings it is hard to know what is a lead which relates to the case and what are possible leads that turn out to be unrelated at all to the abduction.