ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[Breakout]

Is Uni. Free to Provide Student Vehicle Reg. Info to LE?
@Seraphim
Yep, uni. has info re student vehicles reg'ed to park on campus.

The question is whether Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) or another fed or state statute would preclude uni from providing this info to LE, w'out warrant, subpoena, ct order.

Hoping one of our uni experts here will weigh in.

____________________________________
*Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act - Wikipedia

Privacy in education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

License plate numbers and other motor vehicle information collected by the University's registrar are protected as "education records" under FERPA because the records are "directly related" to a student and maintained by the institution. — retrieved from The DOE.

It looks like UI-Moscow has a Parking Office, as opposed to their campus safety officers, administrating parking, which further draws a line and enhances the need for a subpoena in cases of a criminal investigation . However, I can tell you that “informally” that info has probably already been shared and there probably was no white Elantra registered, and least one that was a viable lead, so probably no need to get the subpoena.

It’s just how universities

 

[Kdot112]

In all reality when looking at what actually happened, this crime doesn’t look like college aged kid stuff. I think a lot of the “clues” and characters that have been discussed might actually just be clues about kid drama and that’s it.

IMO (could be wrong), I don’t see the killer as having many friends/present family (which eliminates most of the names floating around). And again not someone around 20. Late 20s at a minimum. I think the killers life consists of only doing messed up stuff or doing nothing fulfilling with not a lot in between.

I also think there is a small chance they were directed to do the act. Especially if there was a vehicle involved and more than one person.

 

[Breakout]

'Part of the timeline that they are looking for more information on is retracing the steps of Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle.

Originally, they were believed to have been at the party for about an hour.

"we're still building that picture, building that timeline,” Captain Dahlinger said.

Captain Dahlinger says the information that the couple was at the Sigma Chi fraternity party the entire night until they returned to the King Road home at 1:45 a.m. is unofficial information and not confirmed by Moscow Police.

"We haven't officially come out and said anything solid on that particular timeframe,” Captain Dahlinger said.'

BBM. Interesting they're 'still building that timeline.' 6 weeks later.

MPD has not confirmed couple's timeline before returning home

I agree. It’s interesting and disturbing. It tells me that the people attending that Sigma Chi event haven’t been providing the info that LE needs to establish that particularly timeline. The announcement that “other (possibly criminal) activities” in photos in videos would be overlooked also seems to be directed at the fraternity or party guests. Who else would that be directed towards? Certainly not the people at the Corner Club.

Fraternity culture has long been one to “lock down and get the story straight” whether faced with hazing allegations or any other bad behavior they are being called out on. IMO some things aren’t lining up with E and X and whatever happened at Sigma Chi that evening.

 

[SoHelpMeGod]

Though the murderer may have practical experience with knives, he is unlikely to have gained that experience from the miltiary.

At the end of the day, a very significant number of military service members have never seen a fighting knife, let alone trained with one.

It maybe different for Army and Marine infantry units and various Special Forces units. But a forum member with family in paratrooper and Special Forces related that even these units are "Yes-but not really" regarding training with fighting knives.

The above does not eliminate the possibility that there are knife afficionados in these units. But.... they would probably need to be looked at as individuals, and not due to simply having been in a infantry or Special Forces unit.

I dont mean to imply that your observation might not have value. Rather, it might just need to be re phrased a little. Perhaps a former serviceman known individually to take the "Yes- but not really" training to a further degree. Or, perhaps statistically more likely there is "Kevin Sharpe":

- Kevin has never been in the military, but imagines that knife wielding Rambos are the norm in Special Forces units. Kevin is known to watch knife fighting self defense videos on You Tube, or maybe order them on line. Occasionally, he can be seen "messing around" with various techniques as he fancies himself a survivalist of sorts.

- Kevin is also known to carry a large, alpha male "totem knife" from time to time- though he has little apparent practical need to do so. Kevin likes to engage in conversations about the knife. He is also capable of rattling off info on knife design / steel superiorities and knows all the best brands by name.

FYI.....for clarity, because you didn't quote everything I was responding to, my post was just a response to a poster from the previous thread who mentioned military at U of I.

 

[SMK777]

If the Elantra belongs to a close or social members of the students, wouldn't one of them reported that information to LE by now?

You would certainly think so. I’m losing faith that the car will be found at this point in time.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I think when Kaylee’s father said there was no reason for them to go upstairs , he said so for a reason and he wanted to intimidate the possible murderer /and his companion.
I believe LE has the name of the suspect in hand and are asking for information from anyone or accomplices to come forward before the DNA results come in. Yess, I’m also hopeful that the case will be resolved very soon .

 

[hopewell]

I think we need to be careful about diagnosing people before they are identified. And even after that, for that matter. Psychopath and sociopath are very overused terms in society. It's easy to want to think of killers like the one(s) in this case in those terms but sometimes people just do terrible things. Just because academia uses those terms does not make it correct and it may be dangerous. But we don't know ANY of this about the perp in this case yet.

While I agree that it is always prudent to refrain from armchair diagnoses in most cases and in most situations, I also feel that one can safely do so with a high degree of probability here. Someone capable of stabbing four folks in their beds while they sleep, one after another, floor by floor, is almost certainly a psychopath or similar.

My opinion.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

'Part of the timeline that they are looking for more information on is retracing the steps of Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle.

Originally, they were believed to have been at the party for about an hour.

"we're still building that picture, building that timeline,” Captain Dahlinger said.

Captain Dahlinger says the information that the couple was at the Sigma Chi fraternity party the entire night until they returned to the King Road home at 1:45 a.m. is unofficial information and not confirmed by Moscow Police.

"We haven't officially come out and said anything solid on that particular timeframe,” Captain Dahlinger said.'

BBM. Interesting they're 'still building that timeline.' 6 weeks later.

MPD has not confirmed couple's timeline before returning home

What would confirm them being in a Frat home ? The complexity of linking several points in time that they remained in the home. Just takes time to find the evidence and testimony

 

[cottonweaver]

Didn't realise JSM's podcasts were 'link-able' on WS ( re ToS) but couple people linked to them on last thread.

Anyway, jumping off of what JSM says re Kabar ( how did LE know it was a Kabar or Kabab-style? JSM intimates perp left sheath as one option) I went back to check the date of the local reporting in Idaho statesman vs the date we know that the autopsy took place.

There's a discrepancy

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Idaho College Murders Continued - Updates and Analysis on Apple Podcasts

Show Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Ep The Idaho College Murders Continued - Updates and Analysis - Dec 12, 2022

podcasts.apple.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593000301937668096

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

'Part of the timeline that they are looking for more information on is retracing the steps of Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle.

Originally, they were believed to have been at the party for about an hour.

"we're still building that picture, building that timeline,” Captain Dahlinger said.

Captain Dahlinger says the information that the couple was at the Sigma Chi fraternity party the entire night until they returned to the King Road home at 1:45 a.m. is unofficial information and not confirmed by Moscow Police.

"We haven't officially come out and said anything solid on that particular timeframe,” Captain Dahlinger said.'

BBM. Interesting they're 'still building that timeline.' 6 weeks later.

MPD has not confirmed couple's timeline before returning home

What would confirm them being in a Frat home ? The complexity of linking several points in time that they remained in the home. Just takes time to find the evidence and test

 

[mrtnira]

I really appreciate how much thought goes into the assessments people make.

 

[CityKid]

Yes hypothetical example and semantics, maybe not accomplice per se but after 6 weeks and if there's people who know something, are protecting someone and are not coming forward as LE has asked - that could and should be a problem.

Lots of people keep secrets about murders. In my province (Canada) 6-7 "friends" (with a ring leader) beat and killed a teenage girl (Reena Virk). They made a pact not to talk. I think it took 2-3 months before a few started talking. Also Lindsay Buziak in my province, still no one charged for a heinous crime that at least 2-3 people were involved in the conspiracy to plan and set it up. No one has cracked yet on that one.

I believe more than one person is involved in this case and I'm really hoping some time home with their families and maybe some parental skepticism and questioning will lead to some lesser-involved (i.e. driver or disposer of bloody garments) person(s) cracking.

 

[femto]

The “risk factor” is part of the thrill. The hunt. The execution of a skilled psychosomatically planned out multiple murder. This is not the work of an amateur. Jmoo

Somewhat true, but not entirely imo. An organized killer who knows what he is doing would never take such a chance that this killer did. There are multiple things that could have gone wrong at any single point of the crime. Killers that are organized very rarely take risks to their own safety and if they do, as part of the adrenaline thrill, they do so in a very calculated manner. Take for example The Original Night Stalker - he would plan his routes, houses, his victims, the whole process of the attack weeks to months in advance, but he'd also take risks for his own thrill such as attacking couples or middle to upper class victims and curiously almost always use a weapon from the home. Now I understand that there are very few killers out there with the experience and knowledge DeAngelo had, but I would still argue that no "professional" killer would take the risks this killer did.

And at the same time the attack was quite clearly planned and the killer had some knowledge of the house and its interior and quite clearly knew the area very well. This would suggest that he planned this, more than likely hated the victims themselves or at least some of them, but this was his first rodeo.

Jodi Arias shows anyone can kill with a knife. I think we've been conditioned by movies like Rambo that only a military type could do this

I kinda disagree with this as a firm believer in the shot first theory in that case. She had trouble killing Travis for a minute or two after the shower pics despite him having every major disadvantage. The killer we're dealing with probably has some experience with knives and is definitely somewhat physically strong. Stabbing one person is hard, stabbing 4 and not having anyone hear it, whether they be the roommates below or people living close by shows some measure of strength. Then again, since we don't know the crime scene itself, it's very hard to tell how much difficulty the killer had with this whole thing.

Judging from the information we have from the police and the coroner, it seems that all victims were initially attacked in their beds, so likely asleep when the attacks began. Some of them were found outside their beds, so probably woke up during the attack and tried to escape/defend themselves. So the evidence does not support the view that the attacks on one floor woke up the occupants of another.

As far as I remember the coroner said the "victims were likely asleep" which is very vague. I mean of course the victims were likely asleep when the killer entered the house and started stabbing people. The question is - where all the victims in bed when the attacks on both floors commenced? The "likely" part also is unclear or she doesn't want to actually reveal a potentially sensitive information.

 

[The Observer]

What would confirm them being in a Frat home? The complexity of linking several points in time that they remained in the home. Just takes time to find the evidence and testimony

I think by week 6 they would know where two of the victims were between 9pm - 1:45am. If they were at the frat in E's room, surely someone saw them go in and come out. There was a party happening.

If they left at 9pm as earlier stated or thought, did they not tell anyone where they were going!?

If they went to Jack In The Box were they not seen on in-store footage!? One of their vehicles not seen on traffic cams!?

I think 6 weeks on it's interesting that friends, siblings, witnesses, phones, social media, bank transactions, venmo and the likes hasn't nailed down a solid timeline as yet.

All MOO

 

[Stratocaster]

So you think LE are deliberately lying by saying they have no suspect? Why are you so confident about this? It sounds more like wishful thinking…

I think LE can say what ever they want while conducting their investigation and also keep many things tight to their chest, as to not ruin the integrity of the investigation. Obviously there is a great deal of information that the sleuthing world wouldn't know about but LE does.

I also think some people that were initially 'cleared' in the investigation, can most definitely become a POI again, as time goes and the investigation progresses on and more social media is leaked out.

My prediction, there will an arrest sometime in January when LE completes the complex jigsaw puzzle. Remember the 'jigsaw puzzle' only started 6 weeks ago. Confident someone's in their cross hairs.

 

[gizmobtj]

Somewhat true, but not entirely imo. An organized killer who knows what he is doing would never take such a chance that this killer did. There are multiple things that could have gone wrong at any single point of the crime. Killers that are organized very rarely take risks to their own safety and if they do, as part of the adrenaline thrill, they do so in a very calculated manner. Take for example The Original Night Stalker - he would plan his routes, houses, his victims, the whole process of the attack weeks to months in advance, but he'd also take risks for his own thrill such as attacking couples or middle to upper class victims and curiously almost always use a weapon from the home. Now I understand that there are very few killers out there with the experience and knowledge DeAngelo had, but I would still argue that no "professional" killer would take the risks this killer did.

And at the same time the attack was quite clearly planned and the killer had some knowledge of the house and its interior and quite clearly knew the area very well. This would suggest that he planned this, more than likely hated the victims themselves or at least some of them, but this was his first rodeo.


I kinda disagree with this as a firm believer in the shot first theory in that case. She had trouble killing Travis for a minute or two after the shower pics despite him having every major disadvantage. The killer we're dealing with probably has some experience with knives and is definitely somewhat physically strong. Stabbing one person is hard, stabbing 4 and not having anyone hear it, whether they be the roommates below or people living close by shows some measure of strength. Then again, since we don't know the crime scene itself, it's very hard to tell how much difficulty the killer had with this whole thing.

As far as I remember the coroner said the "victims were likely asleep" which is very vague. I mean of course the victims were likely asleep when the killer entered the house and started stabbing people. The question is - where all the victims in bed when the attacks on both floors commenced? The "likely" part also is unclear or she doesn't want to actually reveal a potentially sensitive information.

I think we would look at people with more nuance. Disorganized snd Organized are broad generalizations and people operate on continums in my experience and in my opinion. Often crime scenes have elements of both. To say an Organized killer seems odd to me because all murder involves risk. An Organized killer would just plan for risks and a Disorganizdd, in my opinion, would be more random in their victim selection and attack. Some are in the middle, I believe and plan for some but not all elements.

Some also evolve. As Ted Bundy once said, “The first time you are careful. By the thirtieth time, you can't remember where you left the lug wrench.”

Ted Bundy.pptx - Ted Bundy Childhood Ted Bundy was born in Burlington, Vermont on November 24, 1946 as an illegitimate child to 22 year old Eleanor | Course Hero

And, remember, Organized and Disorganized only applies to serial killers who do not know their victims, so it may be useless in this case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://books.google.com/books/about/Crime_Classification_Manual.html%3Fid%3D-4_aAAAAMAAJ&ved=2ahUKEwijq8ixupz8AhWnFVkFHYEOBqQQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw15pLXmhvRJl1MhNpX6mcN4

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/crime-scene-and-profile-characteristics-organized-and-disorganized&ved=2ahUKEwjn0dG6upz8AhWOFVkFHY-OC1oQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NTESlT7vjX5GogX_Pyju9

 

[Marie A]

1. The House
The Car
The Knife

On the surface, this would appear a premeditated crime with well versed police evasion imoo

-AIMOO-
]

I think you nailed it!!!!
FACTS well presented and cited indeed.
“PREMEDITATED WELL VERSED POLICE EVASION” is SPOT ON IMHO - excellent, factual and true

Branmuffin

Anyway, long post (again) but this crime has us all aghast and I am personally agitated by it and worried for LE as well as the poor families. No one is prepared for what appears to be an actual psychopath (some who leaves dead bodies in plain sight, four of them, waiting to alarm an entire community - a whole nation, perhaps the entire world). Wants to scare and thereby control all of us.

NAILED IT, NAILED IT, NAILED IT!!!! My exact feelings expressed in a much more intelligent and professional way than I could have ever conveyed.


A HUGE THANK YOU TO 10ofRods and Branmuffin for taking this forum to EXACTLY where it needs to be. Inside the brain of a true psychopath.
NOT down at the local Corner Club or in any nearby Frat house!


All IMHO as always:
They need highway billboards with a photo of the white Elantra asking WHO (IS SUSPICIOUS) and who drove THIS VEHICLE on and around 11/13/22 within a full 4 hours drive time of the crime scene ASAP and they need to consider that he possibly came from further away still. Portland might not be too far of a stretch. They need a big old phone number for the tip line on the billboards. West to Yakima, WA for sure. East to Missoula, MT.
If I had to place bets I would bet on Kennewick and Yakima WA areas as a possible sweet spot for billboards very well placed.

The perp likely has ditched or disposed of the suspect vehicle shortly after the crimes
but billboards can jog memories and could bring in the right tips but they need to hurry. Flyers taped up at truck stops and gas stations and such could be helpful too. Chop shops and dumping grounds - somebody has a good needed tip.

If an Elantra can drive 490 miles on a full tank of gas, we have to assume the murderer had at least a half tank at the time of the killings. Half a tank driving in to Moscow, half a tank driving out. He could drive @250 miles on half a tank before having to fill up again and expose himself to cameras- 4 hours= a half tank. Further if he carried his own gas cans with him.

This scheming psychopath put time and miles between himself and Moscow and he won’t be easy to flush out. I‘m seeing the gnashing of teeth and rolling of heads before this all plays out (figuratively of course.) Feeling really sorry for the Moscow PD bc I think they are lost in the abyss and won’t be coming out of it anytime in the near future- sigh.

Personally I think this perp practiced before his King Rd massacre.

 

[Which_pancake]

'Part of the timeline that they are looking for more information on is retracing the steps of Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle.

Originally, they were believed to have been at the party for about an hour.

"we're still building that picture, building that timeline,” Captain Dahlinger said.

Captain Dahlinger says the information that the couple was at the Sigma Chi fraternity party the entire night until they returned to the King Road home at 1:45 a.m. is unofficial information and not confirmed by Moscow Police.

"We haven't officially come out and said anything solid on that particular timeframe,” Captain Dahlinger said.'

BBM. Interesting they're 'still building that timeline.' 6 weeks later.

MPD has not confirmed couple's timeline before returning home

Holy cow! I could have sworn I read a statement at one point that a reporter had confirmed with the police that they were at the party all night.

This really cements for me that the attacks are related to something that X&E encountered that night. I keep coming back to the fact that the white car tip came soon after the police included the unusual (to me) request for information about X&E 'direction and method' of travel that night. All MOO

 

[Emerald1328]

Didn't realise JSM's podcasts were 'link-able' on WS ( re ToS) but couple people linked to them on last thread.

Anyway, jumping off of what JSM says re Kabar ( how did LE know it was a Kabar or Kabab-style? JSM intimates perp left sheath as one option) I went back to check the date of the local reporting in Idaho statesman vs the date we know that the autopsy took place.

There's a discrepancy

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Idaho College Murders Continued - Updates and Analysis on Apple Podcasts

Show Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Ep The Idaho College Murders Continued - Updates and Analysis - Dec 12, 2022

podcasts.apple.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593000301937668096

I think the reporter was taking liberties with what he actually said when she wrote KA-BAR.

“They were specifically asking whether or not we carry KA-BAR-style knives, which we do not,” Jutte told the paper. “If we did, we could’ve reviewed surveillance footage. But it wasn’t something I could help them with.”

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268833397.html

 

[CityKid]

I've wondered who made those phone calls, too.

Conclaves family (father and sister) claim voice messages were left ("we share a dog together") so I think K left the voice messages. This was on Lawrence Jones 11/19 on Fox; Fox links are 404 (I don't know why) but you can listen here: