IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #15

[VeryVeritas]

New article about Kilroy's record of excise police citations for accepting fake ID's.




http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20110703/NEWS07/110709875/1006/NEWS


VeryVeritas: It looks like Kilroy's does require ID's, but they don't check them carefully.

Does this mean they check every person, every time? I'd certainly not be faulting Kilroy's as it's a very common thing nationwide... even a place that does usually check every ID, they get to know regulars (even if they used a fake ID) and stop checking after a while. How many times would you look at the same person's Id? Anyway, I think the point was to determine if she had her purse at Kilroys, and perhaps she used a Credit/Debit card and there is a record of the transaction, that would prove it too.

 

[Blythe]

A couple of things....

1. LE mentions "activity" in the alley. What if this is when she might have OD'd? The "activity" could be that she fell and needed to be picked up. On video (with no sound), it would appear she was just drunk and actually, whomever was with her at the time, might have thought that too, and slung her over his shoulder. This could also be why her wristlet (coin purse) and keys were dropped there. If this occurred at the very end of the alley, they may just have a snippet of the activity on tape. From there, they could have taken her to CR's or JR's. Whichever apt. they went to, the other apt. residence could have gotten involved to help. It's very possible that they had to make up the theory that she went home with CR in case anyone saw them helping her (carrying) back and entering there. She may not have actually ODd in the alley, but maybe that's where she began to get into trouble, physically. All three boys could have collaborated this story to protect themselves against A. possible drug involvement and B. concealing a body. Why would JR say he saw her leaving? Well, SOMEONE would have to be that person.

2. Previously there was talk about hiding her in construction pipes. That's certainly possible, but how likely? I'm open to this theory but I am just wondering if 3 boys sitting around in a panic would really think of this? I don't think these are boys who are hard-core criminals. I don't think that if this was murder, it was pre-meditated either. I just think that type of concealment strikes me as more of a harder core criminal or premeditated murderer. Not sure - what do you all think? I just think that if they're sitting in their apartment, trying to decide what to do, they'd want to get her as far away from their place as possible - lake, woods, etc.....not put her somewhere right near their house. How could they possibly know when the concrete would be poured anyway? I just don't think that one is likely.

"Someone" would have to be the last to see her. And they were not criminals. I wonder if she was put in the dumpster and perhaps they were waiting for her to be found but it just never happened. I haven't ruled out JW either. Most 20 year olds on summer vacation that I know would more likely be sleeping at 2:00 pm than am. And they text all night.

 

[jjenny]

Does this mean they check every person, every time? I'd certainly not be faulting Kilroy's as it's a very common thing nationwide... even a place that does usually check every ID, they get to know regulars (even if they used a fake ID) and stop checking after a while. How many times would you look at the same person's Id? Anyway, I think the point was to determine if she had her purse at Kilroys, and perhaps she used a Credit/Debit card and there is a record of the transaction, that would prove it too.

While it doesn't mean they check it every time, seem not likely she would have gone there if she knew she had lost her purse with her IDs. So the most logical conclusion is that purse was lost on the way to CR's after the bar. And the witness who saw it there must have seen it almost immediately after it was lost, since he said it was before 3 am and LS was on camera at 2:51 am. So it is surprising to me that witness wasn't even interviewed by the police at the time he talked to reporters.

 

[jjenny]

JW's roommates went to bed at 2:30 am. I presume they watched the game and decided to call it a day. There is nothing peculiar about that.

 

[sammi89]

I'm confused on her purse/coin purse. Was it a wristlet? I know the Vera Bradley wristlets are very common and popular (I have one myself and most of my friends do too). A lot of girls I know will take wristlets to parties and such simply because they are MUCH smaller and easier to tote around than larger purses. If she was wearing a wristlet, I have trouble thinking that she stuck it inside her waistband. I think it's far more common to simply wear it on the wrist, which also makes it harder for me to believe that she just dropped it and had no idea.

Also, if it is anything like most of the wristlets I've seen, there is a pocket for a cell phone, which makes it strange that she simply left it behind at the bar, imo. Even the smaller ones that just keep IDs, you can usually stick your phone in there as well.

I really haven't thought that anyone MEANT to make sure she left her things, but I'm having a lot of trouble understanding just how she managed to lose everything. Most wristlets have places for phones, and if she was carrying her wristlet in her hand/on her wrist, I just don't think she would not notice dropping it. I'm beginning to wonder if she was having difficulties in the alley and needed help.

 

[Btown]

That article suggests ID has to be presented in order to get into Kilroy's. Whether it's fake or not that's another story.

Hi Jenny,

Most evenings Kilroy's has a bouncer sit outside checking ID's as they enter.
The fenced gate they enter thru makes it difficult to get by the bouncer.
No idea if there was one there that night.

 

[plaidmom]

I believe her purse and keys may have been one unit-- not a "purse" in the traditional sense. Some accounts call it. A coin purse. Her keys would have been for her car I presume her apt door required swipe card. That nite she would have needed "purse" to contain fakeID, debit card, and another photo ID.

Do we know if LS had a car at school? And if so, has it been searched?

 

[april_showers]

Hi all - popping out of lurkdom to throw a few thought out there.

FWIW - I'm picturing anyone involved in the degree of partying (even drinking) that's been alleged probably woke up with a pretty hazy recollection of what occurred. The combination of illegal drugs (if verified) and blacked out memories was probably a significant factor in hiring attorneys for some/all of these kids. Anyone who has woken up the morning after partying too hard is familar with those feelings: "did I really do that?!" / "wait, I ran into so-and-so??" / etc etc. Now imagine if you woke up feeling like that and had to answer to law enforcement. I'm not making excuses for the kids, but I can just imagine the confusion and second guessing involved if you had to piece together drug-addled memories to give an "official" statement to police? "Did I really see Lauren then?" I'm just saying I can kind of see why many were so quick to lawyer up.

Regardless of who might have seen or heard more, or who may be involved, I also think CR just ended up with the perfect "excuse" from an attorney's perspective. IMO this whole "but he got punched - he doesn't remember a thing!" statement is really just lawyer speak for the obvious: by that time of night, after partying all day, he was so wasted he has no clue what was going on. Except he ended up in that altercation, so can hide behind that as an excuse.

 

[april_showers]

Also wanted to add that the whole "freak out after your friend ODs" thing does happen. It happened to a friend of mine a couple years ago. We're a bit older, so the wasn't the same amount of missing person hysteria, but everyone close to him knew something was wrong long before he was found dead. Turned out he had overdosed at someone's house, and since they were doing drugs together, the guy panicked and hid the body. He told police he planned on dragging him out to Rob's car and staging it so he looked to be alone, but couldn't bring himself to do it. Instead they finally found my friend's body wrapped in a tarp in the guy's garage a few weeks later.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/45736947.html

Not saying the same thing happened here, but every time I hear someone on here say "no one in their right mind would go through all the trouble of hiding a body just for an OD," I think of my poor friend Rob. People panic and situations like this, and when under duress can do some realllllly weird things.

 

[plaidmom]

Any of these people would have had to have been waiting outside at 4-4:30AM, in hopes Lauren would come out, alone, and not decide to stay the night at JR's...and really, who would expect her to be walking home alone at that hour, if they had been tracking her all night? And to come across her by chance, it too much of a stretch for me...JMO

More of a stretch than the complete stranger/random abduction theory?

jupiter's list is actually pretty good:

* Smallwood apt. employee
* Fellow IU student or Ivy Tech student or employee (somewhat dependent on which session she enrolled in; Ivy Tech has had recent problems w/creepers)
* Employee of an eatery she may have frequented such as Starbucks or bagel shop
* Sports employee (ID checker probably knows her address)
* Car repairman
* Neighbor
* Someone from the gym

From that list, who ~might~ have seen her that night and realized what state she was in?

Certainly employees of the bar. Possibly employees of Smallwood. Closer to random, a fellow student or neighbor or ? who happened to be at the bar also.

I'm still not ruling out the "circle of friends", but I have an easier time with the "circle of acquaintances" than I do with totally random abduction. Someone LS would have trusted...a friendly face if you will.

 

[plaidmom]

I'm stuck on the jacket today, the one Lauren was carrying in the photo leaving Smallwood. Why haven't we heard anything about it? Where did she leave it? Was it ever found? It might be irrelevant. But maybe not. My guess is that she left it at JR's when she and CR went to Kilroy's. The night wasn't as chilly as she thought it might be, and she didn't want to carry it around.

In that situation, I would ask my male companion to put my phone and coin purse/keys in his pocket. My husband often does that for me when we go out to clubs and I don't want to carry a purse. I don't know if Lauren did that, but it's possible. If not, how did she carry them in the clothes she was wearing. Tucked inside her bra or the waistband of her leggings? It's hard for me to imagine going out to a bar holding those things in my hands all night. I'd want to have some way to secure them. The coin purse and keys were found outside the apartment, but did she drop them? Or did they fall from CR's pockets? I know it doesn't seem to make a difference, but something tells me it does.

Then the jacket, left at JR's. If she left on her own, did she take it with her? Did JR say she had it when she left his place? Apparently not, because the "last seen" description doesn't mention it. We've never heard that it was found at Kilroy's or anywhere along her route that night. So, where is it? Was her body wrapped in it? Will it be found with Lauren?

I apologize for the rambling post, but I think these points are being overlooked.

I've been wondering about the jacket ever since that pic was released.
I'd also like to know if anyone has been able to enhance the picture so that we can more clearly see the little purse or clutch she appears to be carrying.

 

[plaidmom]

Disposing of the human body ought to be such a major crime that it would never be used to cover up a misdemeanor.

"Abuse of a Corpse" is a class D felony in the state of IN.

 

[phantomthought]

New article about Kilroy's record of excise police citations for accepting fake ID's.




http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20110703/NEWS07/110709875/1006/NEWS


VeryVeritas: It looks like Kilroy's does require ID's, but they don't check them carefully.

From the same article "He said tickets for fake IDs are issued mostly outside bars and that officers seize the ID. They also require those who receive tickets to get sober rides home or call a cab."
So why are they checking ID's outside the bar?Why not inside the bar.I thought the whole point of these inspections were to make sure bars were keeping underage people out of their establishment.Is this a way of appearing to enforce the law while protecting these bars.

 

[akh]

From the same article "He said tickets for fake IDs are issued mostly outside bars and that officers seize the ID. They also require those who receive tickets to get sober rides home or call a cab."
So why are they checking ID's outside the bar?Why not inside the bar.I thought the whole point of these inspections were to make sure bars were keeping underage people out of their establishment.Is this a way of appearing to enforce the law while protecting these bars.

Maybe they are checking at the door instead of a bar employee or maybe they are looking over the shoulder of a bar employee as people are checked coming in?

 

[bessie]

Does this mean they check every person, every time? I'd certainly not be faulting Kilroy's as it's a very common thing nationwide... even a place that does usually check every ID, they get to know regulars (even if they used a fake ID) and stop checking after a while. How many times would you look at the same person's Id? Anyway, I think the point was to determine if she had her purse at Kilroys, and perhaps she used a Credit/Debit card and there is a record of the transaction, that would prove it too.

I have no idea if they check ID's each time someone enters the bar. Your points about bar regulars and bars encouraging female patrons are good ones. I wasn't challenging you, btw. I was just about to post the new article when I saw your post, and it was a good jumping off point.

 

[British]

"Abuse of a Corpse" is a class D felony in the state of IN.

If her "friend(s)", or whoever else, disposed what they thought was her dead body after OD, they should be prosecuted for murder. They could not have been certain she was dead and/or that she could not be revived. If that's the case, it was murder.

As it stands now I give 30% chance that it was a murder after sexual assault by someone she knew (possibly one of the POIs) and a > 60% chance that it was an OD/murder by more than one of the POIs. JMO.

 

[Btown]

From the same article "He said tickets for fake IDs are issued mostly outside bars and that officers seize the ID. They also require those who receive tickets to get sober rides home or call a cab."
So why are they checking ID's outside the bar?Why not inside the bar.I thought the whole point of these inspections were to make sure bars were keeping underage people out of their establishment.Is this a way of appearing to enforce the law while protecting these bars.

I would propose the tickets for fake ID's are mostly outside the bars because thats when the person is stopped for public intoxication or improper driving, not as part of inspections of bars.

 

[Btown]

It has been mentioned several times that Indiana's laws are very strict, and you can't be in a bar unless your 21 or older.

I've been meaning to point out that is not totally accurate.
You do not have to be 21 to be in a bar in Indiana.

You may enter a bar in Indiana under 21 if you meet 3 conditions.

A.) You must be at least 18 years old.
B.) You must be there for the purpose of consuming food, not alcohol.
C.) You must be accompanied by a Parent, Guardian, or family member who is 21 or older.

It is not difficult for an 18-20 year old to say: I'm here to eat, and this is my cousin. He's 21.

Indiana Code 7.1-5-7-11 Subsection (b)

In addition, Indiana Code 7.1-5-7-5.1 Sec. 5.1. (b) provides a list legitimate defenses to serving a minor.

Just sayin...

 

[jjenny]

It has been mentioned several times that Indiana's laws are very strict, and you can't be in a bar unless your 21 or older.

I've been meaning to point out that is not totally accurate.
You do not have to be 21 to be in a bar in Indiana.

You may enter a bar in Indiana under 21 if you meet 3 conditions.

A.) You must be at least 18 years old.
B.) You must be there for the purpose of consuming food, not alcohol.
C.) You must be accompanied by a Parent, Guardian, or family member who is 21 or older.

Indiana Code 7.1-5-7-11 Subsection (b)

In addition, Indiana Code 7.1-5-7-5.1 Sec. 5.1. (b) provides a list legitimate defenses to serving a minor.

Since LS was not accompanied by a parent, guardian, or family member, she wouldn't have met all three conditions. Regardless, since the ID is checked, she had to have her purse with her when she went to the bar. Which means she lost it on her way to CR's after she left the bar.

 

[Btown]

Since LS was not accompanied by a parent, guardian, or family member, she wouldn't have met all three conditions.

As I pointed out, it is easy for someone to say, I'm here with Jim Bob to get some food. He is my cousin. He's 21.

There is no way to disprove Jim Bob is not her cousin, nor does the law require proof.

Boom -- Legal entry -- from the bar's perspective.

And we don't know if this happened or not.